Jena, LA (Jena 6) - Thoughts

[Eghad]

So what is the truth about Jena, La?

I have read several articles and listened to some reasonable people talk about it.

Seems the white students recieved an in house suspension for the noose incident. Seems some black students organized a silent protest under the tree and the police and the DA were called out.

Nov 30 the administration building of Jena High was burned down. Each side blamed the other.

In Dec a black student was beaten when he tried to attend a party that consisted mostly of whites. I dont see anything indicating any charges were pressed against those attackers.

After the party a day or two later a white person pulled a shotgun on the black student and friends the black students took the shotgun away. The black persons were arrested for theft of a firearm while the white person had no charges pressed.

I have also read that the guy that got knocked out by the punch and kicked a few times was using the N-word prior to the incident. Two wrongs dont make a right. The student who was hit and kicked was taken to the hospital and released and attended a high school social function that same night.

Attempted murder sounds a little drastic to me. Assault charges I would agree with. Seems like the judge has overturned the conviction and sent it to a juvenile court.

Sounds to me like Jena may have a problem

Only they know for sure.

 

[Marko Kloos]

The whole case stinks.

The white kids hang their nooses, at least one of them pulls a gun on someone else, and the whole thing is dismissed as a "prank". They're being let off with slaps on the wrist.

The black kids get into a fight with the white kids, and the prosecutor throws the book at them. I have no doubt that if the races had been reversed, none of the white kids would have been charged with something as serious as attempted murder, because it was just "schoolyard fisticuffs."

The whole point of Jim Crow was social control through selective application of laws--different standards of prosecution applied to whites and blacks. Looks like the practice isn't entirely dead in some parts of the country.

 

[JuanCarlos]

I am not trying to excuse the behavior of the 6 but I submit that if the appropriate level of action agains the noose hangers (swift, decisive, and unmistakable) had been applied by the appropriate persons in authority, it wouldn't have gotten this far.

It was, at least in my opinion. They were swiftly recommended for expulsion by the principal. Then the school board decided not to.

Hey JC, you have a source, I am trying to read more into the story and I heard this on the radio this morning but I cannot find a good source for it.

It's mentioned in a couple of the sources linked on wikipedia, but admittedly the details surrounding the shotgun incident are a bit hazy.

But I'm thinking that if a prosecutor is so gung-ho as to classify tennis shoes as deadly weapons and call a fight an attempted murder, he'd probably charge somebody who pulled out a shotgun with something, and let him show self-defense in court.

I'd hardly call it compelling evidence of racism on its own, but taking it in the context with everything else I get the impression that Jena has some serious race-related issues, and the severity of the charges pursued in this case might have something to do with that.

Unfortunately racism - like many ingrained beliefs - has a nasty habit of running in the family. I'm all for allowing a parent to raise their child in the manner they wish but not when it means teaching the child to be a bigot

.

Yeah, from my (admittedly short) experience in Louisiana, particularly the northern part (not far from Jena, actually), I don't get the feeling this kind of behavior (the nooses, that is) is exactly discouraged at home.

 

[nikdfish]

FWIW, I know of at least one occasion when one inmate was stomped to death by another who was wearing Nike's at the time ...

Nick

 

[JuanCarlos]

FWIW, I know of at least one occasion when one inmate was stomped to death by another who was wearing Nike's at the time ...

Nick

Do you think the Nike's were necessary to achieve that goal? Did they significantly increase the damage done? In other words, could he still have been stomped to death bare-footed?

If I'm wearing thin leather gloves, and beat somebody to death with my fists, are those gloves now deadly weapons? Or did my fists do most of the work?

Also, in this case considering there were six kids, all armed with tennis shoes, it would appear that the deadliness of Nikes and/or Reeboks might not be consistent.

EDIT: In other words, it wasn't worth much.

 

[JuanCarlos]

Moving away from any racism-related discussion, and into the purely rational for a moment:

Two things strike me from a pure physics perspective. One, due to the nature of their intended purpose, tennis shoes tend to be light. Thus the additional force imparted to a victim from a "kick" (meaning a swung blow) isn't going to be particularly significant. Also, due to the nature of their intended purpose, they tend to actually reduce the force imparted to the foot, and thus also imparted to the surface the foot strikes, by deformation of the padding in the sole. Which means that, at least from what I remember from basic physics (which is admittedly fuzzy), they're likely to reduce the damage done by a "stomping" blow.

So, while it's perfectly possible (as nikdfish pointed out) to kill somebody though blows from the feet while wearing tennis shoes, I'm not entirely convinced that tennis shoes make the attack more effective...which would presumably be required for any rational definition of them as a "deadly weapon."

Does anybody have a rational argument for how tennis shoes will make an attack more deadly, and thus logically qualify as a deadly weapon?

No, simply wanting them to go to jail for longer is not a rational argument. It's one that I'm actually sympathetic to (I'm not a fan of six-on-one fights), but that's not the way the law is supposed to work.

 

[ZeroJunk]

I'm white.So,if I get in a fight with a black I am a racist.If I get in a fight with a white,I just didn't like the SOB.

I am confused by all the butt whippings I have seen between whites.They are unexplainable since race is not involved.

JC,I was a juror on a trial where a black girl was charged with attempted murder for hitting another black girl with one of those wooden thingys they put a newspaper on in the library.(motive obviously unexplainable since it coudn't be racism) I really didn't think she could have killed her with it in a week.We would have probably convicted her for simple assault,but found her not guilty because of the deadly weapon part.

Of course if the victim had been white we would have given her 30 days in the electric chair.

 

[BoringAccountant]

The whole case stinks.

Agreed.

However, how does trying to overcome racism in one city by having an all black rally do that, are you not just dividing the city even more? Granted, racism is a factor in the entire situation, and it may be a factor in the severity of the charges, the more I read and learn the more it stinks of a Nifong case, however how does combatting racism with more segregation and racism help. In my honest opinion, Jackson and Sharpton do not belong there, they bring more issues to the city and no degree of help, as soon as another situation which could result in more funds for the NAACP pop up they will forget about Jena, how unfortunate as it is, but true

That this violence broke out at all is an endpoint of the noose incident. We are all Americans and we know exactly what is implied by a noose hanging from a tree. ("Strange Fruit" anyone? And if you don't know, Google the phrase.)

I am not trying to excuse the behavior of the 6 but I submit that if the appropriate level of action against the noose hangers (swift, decisive, and unmistakable) had been applied by the appropriate persons in authority, it wouldn't have gotten this far.

Agreed the fight is most likely a result of the noose incident, but you cannot blame or excuse the actions of the 6...I know you stated you dont excuse their behavior, but I do not see this going any differently had the kids been expelled

I suggest everyone involved, and those contributing to this thread take a high colonic, and be done with it...let justice (or whatever passes for justice is in LA) run its course, and THEN, if there are issues, go through the appeal process...much to do about nada.

Well either way you look at it, none of us can do anything to change the outcome, so why wait on discussing it...its in the news now

 

[JuanCarlos]

JC,I was a juror on a trial where a black girl was charged with attempted murder for hitting another black girl with one of those wooden thingys they put a newspaper on in the library.(motive obviously unexplainable since it coudn't be racism) I really didn't think she could have killed her with it in a week.We would have probably convicted her for simple assault,but found her not guilty because of the deadly weapon part.

Of course if the victim had been white we would have given her 30 days in the electric chair.

Ignoring all the whining about white people being called racist, I'm pretty sure that those wooden thingies (I wonder if they even have a name? I know what you're talking about though) can be used to increase damage done with a blow. Especially assuming the ring is on the end, they don't deform that much (they may actually be more rigid than an arm or leg), and I'm pretty sure their length means that more force can be imparted. But I'm not entirely sure.

Another major difference, though, is that that thingie had to be specifically picked up to attack with...these kids just happened to be wearing shoes because this is the US and not Botswana, and most people here wear shoes.

Also note that in that case you're talking about attempted murder, and not aggravated assault. Attempted murder is a question of intent...where aggravated assault is, at least in this case, a question of whether a deadly weapon was used.

EDIT: Doh! Reading comprehension failure. I see now that it sounds like you acquitted her, but would have convicted on simple assault. Some of my post still applies, so I'll leave it. Sorry about that, though.

 

[Redworm]

JC, the idea that tennis shoes can't possibly be considered deadly weapons seems so painfully obvious...


I guess it's true that "common sense" usually isn't.

 

[DoItRight]

... However, how does trying to overcome racism in one city by having an all black rally do that, are you not just dividing the city even more? Granted, racism is a factor in the entire situation, and it may be a factor in the severity of the charges ... In my honest opinion, Jackson and Sharpton do not belong there ...

I have to disagree on this.

One of the reasons discrimination continues to take place is that cases like this, in little towns like this get quietly swept under the rug. When that happens, it allows people to say, "Racism? What racism? There's no racism anymore. Blacks are just too darned sensitive" As an educated Black Man, I have mixed feelings about Jesse and Al. But like them or not, they have the ability to bring heat and light to an issue that might otherwise be kept very quiet.

Agreed the fight is most likely a result of the noose incident, but you cannot blame or excuse the actions of the 6...I know you stated you dont excuse their behavior, but I do not see this going any differently had the kids been expelled

Let me reiterate that point. I am not trying to excuse the behavior of the 6.

That said, I am telling you that this would have not come to a head like this if Blacks in Jena had seen justice applied in the case of that noose incident.

 

[ZeroJunk]

DoItRight,There is obviously racism.But,there is a wide gap between what different intelligent people think it is.
The racism charge is used so much to describe bad stuff that happens to everybody that efforts to address real racism are diluted.
I'm sorry,but when Sharpton and Jackson showed up I ceased to take seriously anything I hear about it in the media.

 

[Slugthrower]

Those folks that put a noose in the tree were wrong for doing that, but just as a bald headed white dude wearing a swastika on his jacket would make a Jew very angry. It doesn't give the Jew the right to harm another person, just because it upsets their sensibilities.

The primary problem that I see with the Jena 6 is that they were beating a person who was unconscious. What they were doing metaphorically was molesting the carcass. If it wasn't for that fact, all this garbage that has become a circus wouldn't have to be. Mob violence and beating on a person when they are no longer able to defend themselves is clearly wrong. There should be consequences for their actions. Conversely there should be consequences for the noose BS. It was an instigation for a fight.

Now, if whoever placed those nooses in the tree were man enough to say they did it and the persons that were angry enough to fight about it were man enough to fight one on one with no dirty tricks, sucker punching and gang tactics involved it could have been settled, even though it would be rather neanderthal like in manner. Better yet, those that were offended by the stupid folks that placed a noose should have notified the persons in charge of the campus and had those fools expelled from the school. Instead they decided to administer their own justice and must pay the piper for their unjust actions.

Two wrongs do not make a right, nor does a dirty prank give anyone a right to whoop someone into unconsciousness, period.

 

[BoringAccountant]

they have the ability to bring heat and light to an issue that might otherwise be kept very quiet.

I just see it being important to show equality in all areas, i.e. bring heat and attention to the city by having a march involving famous, intelligent, and honorable white AND black people at the same time.

As an educated Black Man, I have mixed feelings about Jesse and Al.

As do I, regardless of race, I feel sometimes they are needed for the very reason you stated, but other times, I just feel they have their own agenda and thats it.


P.S. maybe I live in this utopia of goodness and grace and think that somehow everyone has the ability to get along, so maybe I should just wake up from my dream....zzzzzz....zzzzzz

 

[Musketeer]

As I said the 6 need to be prosecuted and in a perfect system convicted. In addition the system which fermented this whole problem needs to be ripped apart.

The actions of the 6 are NOT acceptabel or justified but the black community can claim one victory here, we would not even be discussing this backwards racist town if it weren't for the criminal act of these 6 black men. I am certain a beating in that town of a black man would be swept right under the rug.

 

[Eghad]

Sometimes if you are a white person its easy to say I dont see any signs of racism. I have worked since 1987 with a black female who is a co-worker and friend. Sometimes we have to go on business trips out of town. We have driven some places and flown others. Only one of us has a rental car and we usually eat together on business trips. At 99.9% of the places we eat I never have noticed anything. Sometimes at a very few places I have eaten at I have seen what I say were not happy looks in small southern places on the road. If I had been with my wife I would have never noticed it.

The same with sexual harrasment. If you asked one person he might say we dont have a sexual harrasment problem here. Then when something happens everybody seems suprised about it.

If the white people of Jena are saying that they dont have a racial problem but the black citizens are saying we do then I would have to think that there is a problem that needs to be resolved. Might be one of perception but there is still a problem.

 

[snaptafar]

The fact the one teen weathered the beating well enough to be released that night is irrelevant. A charge is based on the intent of the actions, not the results. If someone attempts to kill you but fails and you escape unharmed doesn’t mean they won’t still face the attempted murder charge. Conversely, if an action COULD HAVE resulted in a certain level of bodily harm, the perpetrator MAY well face that level of charge. I certainly doubt the attempted murder charge is warranted, but if the teen had been frail and ended up in a coma from the same level of beating would this even be a discussion?

Another point. The noose incident in no way excuses the actions of the six. While it’s disconcerting this type of behavior still exists and it certainly escalated the racial tensions, trying to create a moral equivalency between something emotionally harmful or at worst threatening and actually inflicting physical harm is preposterous. Those responsible for the nooses should have been more severely punished, but substituting one wrong with an even more egregious wrong, especially against someone who wasn't involved in the previous wrong is totally unacceptable.

Lastly, unless someone can provide an example of an incident with similar circumstances but the races are reversed and this DA didn’t file the comparable charges, there really isn’t an issue. It’s hard to prove someone’s actions are too severe when you don’t have anything to compare them to. If the report about the Dec beating incident is true AND it was reported to authorities who then failed to act, there may well be a storm brewing. But if it’s shown the DA is consistent, then this is all noise. Call me naïve, but I trust the system will flush out any inappropriate actions or inactions by the authorities just as happened with Nifong. But I also believe the race baiters are always looking for the next opportunity. I’m concerned the end result may be prosecutors who will become ineffectual from concern about what kind of publicity their actions may bring. I agree it’s a travesty when an innocent is incarcerated, but so is letting bad guys remain free to victimize others who should have truly been put away.

 

[ZeroJunk]

Sometimes at a very few places I have eaten at I have seen what I say were not happy looks in small southern places on the road

So that's racism.
Meanwhile,the real issues that separate the races are ignored.Or,you are labeled a racist if you even bring them up.
Let everybody spend their nickle on sideshows like Jena and see if it has any effect on anything other than Sharpton and Jacksons wallet.

 

[DoItRight]

Now, if whoever placed those nooses in the tree were man enough to say they did it and the persons that were angry enough to fight about it were man enough to fight one on one with no dirty tricks, sucker punching and gang tactics involved it could have been settled, even though it would be rather neanderthal like in manner. Better yet, those that were offended by the stupid folks that placed a noose should have notified the persons in charge of the campus and had those fools expelled from the school. Instead they decided to administer their own justice and must pay the piper for their unjust actions.

Sluggy -

You need to read the details of what happened. It's obvious from your comments that you did not.

There is obviously racism.But,there is a wide gap between what different intelligent people think it is. The racism charge is used so much to describe bad stuff that happens to everybody that efforts to address real racism

Fellas -

I appreciate the well-meaning discourse here. I really do. But it's obvious that you guys simply don't get it. Racism isn't something that pokes up every now and then ... for Black people it's in our face every single day.

Let me show you something that was posted on another gun board just yesterday ...

• Poster number 1: "Haven't thought of Jena in sometime. I hope the "6" get 60 in Angola although a 6ft rope would be better."
  
  
• My response: "Excuse me? Would you see these young men lynched" Methinks this is the kind of attitude that started this particular mess in the first place."
  
  
• Poster number 2: "Sounds good to me. Ever notice the increase in violent crime since forced integration? I'm 60. I can remember living in Chicago as a kid. It was one of the most segregated cities in the country. We lived safe and sound until the mid 60's when the blacks and crime invaded my neighborhood. That was the first time I moved to avoid colored, nergro, African Americans. I think there's been 5 moves for the same reason since then. Believe me YOU CAN'T LIVE WITH THEM."

... I was like WTH???

That thread stood for almost 24 hours and nobody else from that forum stood up to say anything about it. I was amazed.

The next day, I finally reported it and the mod closed the thread with a strongly-worded warning.

My point is that it exists -- everywhere -- everyday. You don't see it because you don't have to. We don't have a choice. Do I want a medal? Of course not -- 99% of Black folks don't. We just get mightlly peeved when people try to pretend that we're being over-sensitive when we tell you what we see and experience.

Let me ask it a different way. Look at the CNN coverage. Do you think all those peolple went down there because they are mindlessly following Jesse and Al? Do you think that they don't have jobs/lives/other things to do? Do you think that all of them went down there looking for trouble?

Those people went down there because they felt a need to express something. Because they were compelled to stand up for a cause. People don't do that kind of thing without there being something very real behind their actions.

 

[The Tourist]

That this violence broke out at all is an endpoint of the noose incident.

Your point even has some validity by a court ruling. I do not know in what jurisdiction, but there was a ruling that some speech is simply "fighting words." That is, that speech is so hateful that anger is a reasonable response.

This bothers me simply as a slippery slope.

Again, for the purpose of debate, take the issue of race out of the equation. You're standing on a public street and you see six bikers go by--all on custom Harleys, all gray haired.

Almost inspite of yourself, you laugh and say, "What a bunch of RUBs."

One rider hears you, the bikes circle, and within seconds you're an ink spot in a crosswalk. The bikers are actually legitimate inactive club members returning to the group for a barbeque. You've just insulted some very dangerous people.

To my way of thinking, you've spoken fighting words.

Among legitimate bikers, the insult of 'RUB' is about the lowest remark you can utter. The phrase infers that you are a "Rich Urban Biker," a wealthy suburbanite who buys a motorcycle from a commercial customizer and then pretends to be an outlaw.

If it were my friends, I'd tell them to arrange the trial in front of the same judge who granted the opinion that there are such things as fighting words. Let's face it, you spoke the words, a fight resulted.

Sounds silly, doesn't it? I agree, and I'm a biker.

I believe that these race card tactics to avoid prosecution are simply tricks to side-step personal responsibility.

Everybody and their uncle knew that kids hung the nooses. No one was lynched, no one even got a rug burn. As is most of these incidents, it was just an excuse to deliver some pay-back.

BTW, no matter how serious the wounds, six-on-one is felonious assault. It's a miracle that the kid wasn't hurt seriously--or killed.