Is the .40 S&W REALLY dying?

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Originally Posted by CDW4ME
40 S&W become more popular if a ineffective nationwide AWB with arbitrary 10 round mag limit and no grandfathering ever gets passed.

Limited to 10 rounds or less, many people might prefer bigger bullets.
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precisely why .40 S&W became so popular in the first place

It's a great caliber, but since the AWB sunsetted, it opened up big mags again...
so until the Libs get back in control, Enjoy!!
When they get a hi-cap mag ban passed, .40 will get REALLY popular again.
So chill, relax, and hang on to your party favors...they'll be big again.
Meanwhile, some of the smart folks are scarfing up .40's while dumb folks are selling low!!
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Nope, not at all ...

Actually, back in the '90s, the rapid increase in the number of states enacting CCW laws - in combination with the Clinton AWB/10-rd mag limit - actually accelerated popular demand for concealable 10-rd .45acp and 10mm pistols. The most notables of those were, respectively, the G30 (9+1) and the G29 (10+1).

The .40S&W's popularity back then had little or nothing to do with the federal AWB/10-rd mag limit; rather it had much more to do with the FBI's formal adoption of the cartridge, following which, like the proverbial domino-effect or panicky lemmings :rolleyes: , a huge number of state, county, and local PDs & LEAs rushed to adopt the 40 too.

A somewhat more secondary reason was the perception of the .40S&W as the perfect 'compromise' cartridge: the initial 180gn JHP load offered you low-end 10mm 'stopping-power' in a more easily carried 9mm-size gun.
 
If someone has a 40 now and is happy with it, it is functional for all service pistol needs and I don't see ammo going away for it for any foreseeable amount of time. Conversely, if one does not have a 40, there is no special reason to buy one. Compared to a 9mm it has less capacity in the same size pistol, more recoil, more expensive ammo, and no more effective for service use.

the .45 is AMERICAN as apple pie, it's not going anywhere
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Additionally high-end 45s will continue to be produced because they are accurate. If you are getting a quality pistol, 45 ACP is a good and popular choice. The 40 S&W is not even a player with the 45 ACP in that application and that is not changing.
 
saleen322 said:
If someone has a 40 now and is happy with it, it is functional for all service pistol needs and I don't see ammo going away for it for any foreseeable amount of time. Conversely, if one does not have a 40, there is no special reason to buy one. Compared to a 9mm it has less capacity in the same size pistol, more recoil, more expensive ammo, and no more effective for service use.



Additionally high-end 45s will continue to be produced because they are accurate. If you are getting a quality pistol, 45 ACP is a good and popular choice. The 40 S&W is not even a player with the 45 ACP in that application and that is not changing.
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Nobody is really demanding high end competition/target pistols in any calibers other than .45, 9mm, and .22 LR, but I don't think the theme of this thread is if people want .40's for competitive events, it's for self defense, plinking, and training.

In those cases, I don't see .45 ACP sticking around. It costs significantly more than .40 and 9mm, it's less powerful than 10mm, it's the lowest capacity. The largest reason 9mm is favored over .40 is the price, the lower recoil is secondary as most who own a 9mm immediately go for +P as their defense ammo.

Among the younger crowd today, the saying is 9mm for the hoods, 10mm for the woods.
 
A somewhat more secondary reason was the perception of the .40S&W as the perfect 'compromise' cartridge: the initial 180gn JHP load offered you low-end 10mm 'stopping-power' in a more easily carried 9mm-size gun.
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Bingo! Also, while the lemmings squeal and drop .40...great deals are being had!!
Picked up a Star Ultrastar .40 for $200!! so I've got the mate to the 9mm version!
Now all I need is a Star 240 & a Megastar 10mm and I'm done with my Star collection;)
 
Someone recently posted the top 10 calibers by sale in America. The .40 was #3 right behind the .45 ACP.

Being a big .40 fan I was happy. I don't think the .40 is going anywhere.
 
Let's be perfectly honest. The functional difference between a 9MM and .40 is virtually none. In fact this seems to be THE base argument for the resurgence of the 9MM back into territory it had ceded previously to the .40.

Functional equivalence to the long running most popular handgun round in existence through the world.

A base of millions of handguns that have been produced for the round that will last hundreds of years even if none are produced going forward. For the record more will be produced because there are bound to be people who simply like the .40 and the contrarian out there who wants something just like the 9MM without being the 9MM.

The .38 Super is still around. Why in the world would the .40 actually die out in any of our lifetimes?
 
TruthTeller wrote:
In those cases, I don't see .45 ACP sticking around.
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People have been predicting the demise of the old .45 ACP for years. Yet more manufacturers than ever have 1911s in their catalogues, and a lot of people are buying them in the cartridge "traditional" for that pistol. I just did.

People that know handgun caliber ballistics know the .45 ACP is a great home defence round for its intimidating bore, manageable recoil and relatively poor barrier penetration. Did that, too. And a friend of mine is set to do the same, for the same reasons.

Lohman446 wrote:
Let's be perfectly honest. The functional difference between a 9MM and .40 is virtually none.
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Yeah, people keep claiming things like that. I keep not believing it :)

Let's take a couple of comparative rounds: Federal HST 9mm 147 gr., which is well thought of as a defensive round, and their .40 S&W 155 gr. The latter has more than 40% more muzzle energy. Now you can claim they'll have roughly equivalent terminal ballistics, but I ain't buyin' it.

Does that mean the 9mm round is "insufficient?" Not at all. Plus there are a variety of other factors at play besides straight terminal ballistics. But to claim the difference between the two is "virtually none" is a provably false assertion.
 
FLJim said:
But to claim the difference between the two is "virtually none" is a provably false assertion.
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It's easy to see the difference just by shooting at a pylon of steel flipper targets.

As you said, the 9mm definitely is a formidable round but the .40 behaves even more formidably.

--Wag--
 
My defense of the assertion that they are functionally equivalent: Both are poor choices for depending on a QUICK physiological inability to continue aggressive behavior and as such rely on psychological factors when used as commonly taught (center of mass). Either, given the "right" hit, can create an instant physiological stop. Frankly put neither carries the energy to depend on it. No this is not a knock on them - I don't think any commonly carried pistol really does. This is why most people carry rifles when hunting or would prefer them if they KNEW they had to have a firearm.

What exact shooting scenario do you think solely the difference between a 9MM and a .40 is going to matter?

Functional equivalence. Dropping the word functional from "no functional difference" makes a tremendously different argument than the one I asserted and creates a straw man - an argument that was never actually made.
 
* * * It's easy to see the difference just by shooting at a pylon of steel flipper targets.
As you said, the 9mm definitely is a formidable round but the .40 behaves even more formidably.
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So does the 10mm AUTO. So what?
 
Does how violently or quickly a flipper target moves matter to the score? If it does not any round that moves them, given the same point of impact, is functionally equivalent
 
I guess it depends on what you define as a cartridge "dying." I consider a cartridge "dead" when I can no longer buy a new gun chambered for it and no large ammo manufacturer still makes ammo. I can go to my local Cabela's and buy new production ammo for .38 S&W and .32 S&W Long, neither of which have had a new gun chambered for them in the U.S. in several decades. I can still buy .45 Long Colt and .44-40 ammo even though they should have been made obsolete by newer cartridges designed for smokeless powder over a century ago. I can still easily get .41 Magnum and .38 Super Auto ammunition even though they're only available in a handful of new guns and bought by a small fanbase. Heck, even .25 Auto and .32 Auto are only available in new guns from a couple of manufacturers, but I can still get the ammo at Wal-Mart. Considering that nearly every major handgun manufacturer offered at least one model in .40 S&W at some point in the last 29 years, I think that it will continue to be available for a very, very long time. At worst, I see it sliding into the same category as .38 Super and .41 Magnum. I doubt, however, that it will ever be truly dead like 9mm Federal, .356 TSW, or .41 Action Express.
 
I remember when the 40 S&W came out the death of the 9mm was immenent. But the 9 mm didn’t die and neither will the 40S&W. I am on the Notify Me list the next time a load of Glock trade ins makes it to Aim Surplus.

My BIL just got his Cop ticket and was required to by a Glock 22.

I like the idea of a 180gr bullet hitting 900fps or better. And I believe the 40 caliber does a little better with lead than the 9mm.

I have already looked at brass prices for once fired 40 and dies. So a 40 is on my short list right now. I don’t care what the cops or FBI do or think or use. That has no bearing on what I want. And a great deal on a gun is always a reason to buy for me.
 
It's easy to see the difference just by shooting at a pylon of steel flipper targets.
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That one of the reasons the 45acp was deemed a “better” defensive round. It moved bowling pins and steel plates BETTER then lighter bullets. The problem is that people are not made out of steel.
 
The .40 isn't going anywhere, maybe it has lost some popularity but overall, if an agency switches from .40 to 9mm it isn't because the 9mm is better or as good, it's about money, pure and simple. Many agencies do still use the .40, so it's not dying by any means. Someone else here mentioned it and I've never really thought about it much, but it's true, the .45 ACP has been pretty stale for a long time. I can't think of too many, if any, hot new .45 ACPs on the market, it usually requires a larger gun. It just so happens to be that 9mm is very popular right now, and that's due to many factors (largely the interest in small handguns) and I'm not saying it's a bad cartridge, but it's not a .40 or a .45.

Personally I love the .40, I can't really find fault with it. I get a 9mm sized frame and 9mm like capacity with the ability to punch bigger holes. It's got a lot of unrealized potential as well that many aren't even aware of.
 
Lohmann446 wrote:
Functional equivalence. Dropping the word functional from "no functional difference" makes a tremendously different argument than the one I asserted and creates a straw man - an argument that was never actually made.
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I dropped nothing. I quoted your assertion verbatim. And I disagree with your assertion that there is "no functional difference."

We won't come to an agreement on this point, so there's little point in pursuing it. I only wanted to point out I was not misrepresenting your argument.
 
Lohman446 said:
The functional difference between a 9MM and .40 is virtually none.
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FLJim said:
But to claim the difference between the two is "virtually none" is a provably false assertion.
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I believe that this is what Lohman446 is referring to.

He stated that the "functional difference" between the two "is virtually none". Your restatement of his claim was: "the difference between the two is virtually none".
 
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