Is the .40 S&W REALLY dying?

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Lohman446 said:
So why not 10MM, 357 Sig, 40 Super, 45 Super, 45 or the myriad of choices with far more potential than the .40? Before we get too excited about capacity arguments note the 357 Sig on the list
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357 Sig notwithstanding, you have to move up in platform size to use one of those cartridges. In a 'standard' size concealment gun the 9 and 40 are the two major choices.

One of the real advantages of the "death" of the 40 has been all of the bargains I have food on good defensive ammo. Normally 40 costs more than 9 simply by virtue that it uses more materials, but some of the major online sellers have posted case prices on good JHP ammo that is literally half what top tier 9mm is selling for. Add that to the bargain prices for guns and the 40 becomes a super choice for people on a budget.
 
Lohman446 said:
So why not 10MM, 357 Sig, 40 Super, 45 Super, 45 or the myriad of choices with far more potential than the .40?
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In order (N.B.: My opinion):
  • 10mm: Overkill for an SD sidearm, unless you want to load it down, then what's the point?
  • 357 Sig: 9mm on velocity steroids. Concern there is over-penetration.
  • 40 Super: Don't know it, but ammo selection/price might be a concern?
  • 45 Super See above.
  • 45 (ACP, I presume): I like it for a home SD round for its lower likelihood of barrier (wall) penetration
To my way of thinking, same as it was when I first chose it, the .40 S&W hits a sweet spot: Improved terminal ballistics over 9mm and better barrier/garment penetration w/o quite as much over-penetration risk as more powerful rounds.

I might be inclined to a 10mm for carry in the woods. In fact I'm vaguely considering it. I use 45 ACP for the home defence pistol. I will soon have a 1911 in my carry rotation. I may end up with a 357 Sig in my carry rotation (but only because I can--not so much as I need to).
 
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I just don't understand why anyone would say that it is dying. It's an essential gap cartridge for the ACP type pistol between 9mm and .45. There are no common cartridges in america that could actually be referred to as 'dying.'

.38 is still an essential round as is .357. .380 is an essential gap also, filling the need for a sub 9mm round and the non-existent 'effective sub caliber combat round.'

.32 and .25 acp? I'm going to have to say that they are dead already, they exist only to serve obsolete equipment and to serve a few currently available new production guns that are generally very poorly thought of and rarely used.

are there really any dying rounds? .44 magnum sure isn't, not even the casull or .45 colt are 'dying.'

A lot of these rounds are losing market popularity. The .45 acp has probably been losing popularity for the past twenty or more years, but not rapidly or significantly, and it is still a strong seller.

I kind of wonder, with the gradual decline of teenage hunters, how much longer will it be before the .410 shotgun becomes endangered?

As far as rifle rounds go, no, the .30-30 isn't dying. The 30-06 and .308 based rounds aren't dying, but they are diminisihing in popularity because of the new breed of specialist rounds. No, the nearly 120 year old .06 will remain, the .270, .308, .243, etc will remain. There are literally millions of rifles out there that fit the .06 round. MILLIONS. We can never stop making the ammo, and as long as we are making the ammo, there will ALWAYS be rifles made to use it.

Someday some of these old standards may be killed off, but they will never just fade away because they just aren't being used.
 
[Insert all the usual caveats here, blah , blah, blahdiblah blah.]

And "For the Record."
FTR, I do not like .40S&W. Never have. It is sort of a reverse-Goldilocks deal where I consider it to have to worst characteristics of 9x19mm and .45ACP, while 9x19 and .45ACP do better what they do well than does .40S&W. I own one pistol in .40S&W. I don't expect to buy another. I own multiple 9x19mm and .45ACP pistols. I plan on buying more for me & mine.


DEATH OF THE .40S&W
Someone who does not count cartridges sold might say this. Those who can count past 10 without taking off their shoes & socks know better. I may not like the .40S&W, but the stupid thing sells like crazy. To say it is dead/dying is self-beclowning.


LEA SHIFT TO 9x19mm
Women and hard-to-teach/dumb/inexperienced/test-waiver men are responsible for this. Rather, the bureaucritters who hire, fire, and train LEOs have made the call to run toward 9x19mm like their hair was on fire and their backsides were catching so they can hire folk who would not have made the grade in the past. The single fact that 9x19mm pistols make it easier to train some folk to minimum standards rules the roost. Time, cost, and political considerations.

Thing is, your average woman can learn to shoot .40S&W or .45ACP in a platform that is reasonable. This rules out double-stack semi-autos with grips the size and ergo of bricks, since getting a good grip _and_ reaching the crappy DA/safe-action trigger is tough. A single stack, OTOH, is reasonable. Make that single stack all-steel (slide & frame) and now you are getting somewhere as subjective recoil is tamed. Make that all-steel single-stack a 1911 with the original short trigger and a flat mainspring housing, and a 10YO girl can manage the big & burly .45ACP with a little coaching. BTDT.


9x19mm Matches .40S&W/.45ACP/.88Magnum PERFORMANCE IN JELL-O
Duh.

The FBI has promulgated performance standards for decades, now. Most every big dog ammo maker has JHP pills that will stay in that performance envelope when launched out of a service-sized pistol at the velocity usual for that caliber and weight pill.

How and what they do on the way to meet the standard is a different question.


LAWS OF PHYSICS: OBEDIENCE IS NOT OPTIONAL
9x19mm is the minimum caliber/chambering for a service auto. Most other alternatives have more to work with, KE, momentum, frontal area, and mass-wise.

This means for 9x19mm to run with the big dogs, it absolutely requires a top-of-the-line premium hollow point. Preferably moving at +P velocities. .45ACP starts out with the larger diameter and frontal area and more mass. .40S&W does too, to a lesser extent. They can get by with lesser bullet tech and meet the FBI standard. That is how & why the FBI went from 9mm to 10mm to .40S&W (and special tac-guys to .45ACP). 9x19mm of the day could not meet the standard.

A good example to show what more mass or velocity can get you is the old-school .357mag SJHP in 125 gr or 158gr, no matter. That cartridge also meets FBI standard in most tests I have seen. It does so with ancient bullet tech. And it does it while causing some of the nastiest bullet damage on the way to making that standard.

And looking at .40S&W and .45ACP loaded with contemporary premium JHP, they do more damage on the way to meeting the FBI standard than does 9mm, given they have greater KE, momentum, frontal area, and mass.
 
I looked at some tests of Speer Gold Dots and did a quick chart to compare some of the rounds discussed: 9mm, 357 Sig, 45 ACP and of course the 40 S&W. I looked at Speer only because it is a decent product but mostly because the data was available. All seemed very serviceable, not real big differences and none really stood out as the absolute Hammer of Thor over the other calibers. The only +P listed is the 9mm 115 +P+ and it tested no better than the 147 standard pressure round. While other brands may have different results, this seems to indicate shoot any of these you prefer as it does not seem to make much difference. YMMV

46794621604_0e7180c78c_b.jpg
 
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Salern322 I think you have hit on the “problem” with the argument. Those with .40 want to magnify the little difference in power over 9MM while ignoring the difference to 357 SIG or 10MM. Meanwhile the 9MM camp wants to discuss differences in shot timers that are equally as minimal and likely meaningless and about an 8% difference in capacity that is also likely meaningless. We can’t just have an acceptance that all concealed carry and common duty rounds are compromises and unlikely to be the key cog in an effective personal safety strategy. How can we feel smarter than others and create cliques if we don’t highlight the “superiority” of our caliber, firearm, or holster manufacture choice
 
In today’s world with the best ammo none of it makes much of a difference and honestly I think variety of ammo availability is the greatest benefit of having different calibers.

Where I think there is a more marked difference is if you are forced to use non premium / plinking ammo for your self defense needs. In those cases a big flat nosed high pressure .40 would make me feel better then a 115g round nosed 9mm.

At any rate I stand by my standard answer when folks ask me 9mm, .40 or .45 and that answer is “YES”.

Shoot whatcha like. Shoot what gives you a psychological edge, shoot what fits your budget, shoot what you have fun with just get out there and shoot. Never let somebody else influence or dictate your preferences unless what you are doing is inherently unsafe.

I mean jeebus there are folks out there with a .45 colt SAA in their nightstand or a .455 Webley and if they know how to use it the hardware matters little vs the software.

Once again......40 DYING??? Call me when I cannot find .357 SIG or .41 Magnum or hell .45 GAP. Until then. Yawn.
 
Geez, I hope it isn't dying. I have a S&W M&P40c and just bought a used Sig P229 in .40S&W today.

Is it less popular than it used to be, of course. Is it going away, not anytime soon.
 
I have watched quite a few Dash-Cam videos, of Police gun-fights. Oduls of emptying of pistols, with 80% misses, any calibre.

Does it really matter the calibre? Let's face it, the average Cop is a not very good shot, why? 100 rounds, every six months of "Training"

And they are not, on average, gun people. So does it matter 9mm or .40?

The days of 6'4" ex-Marine Cops? Is not so much nowadays, small people and females are the average Officer. With proper Instruction, they do fine.
Study all the gunfights that have happened, find the common denominators,
put that info into your lesson plans. Survival is the name of the game.

Case in point, I once had to vie for the ability to teach, and issue Diplomas of safe handling of first Double Action Revolvers, then into Self Loading 9mm Pistols, in Ontario, Canada. The governing body, The OPP Firearms Unit.
Purpose, teaching Security, and Armoured Car Attendants. For fee.

Taking two Sgt's from that unit on a class, was my in. Actually, they turned up with writing pads? My Classes were 8 students, always. My indoor range was only 10m wide, two lines of 4. I kept this class to 6, so as to fit the two Sgt's in. One on each line. That's about the maximum amount for one Instructor anyways. And in reality, you have only 4 to watch at a time, ideal.

They both had 20 years in, our two Sgt's and the first 6 shots at 7m were uniformly low left hits. I had an S&W model 10, minus a cylinder, and crane. Used for sighting, and dry fire purposes.

I would watch the trigger control, then line my eye, with students master eye (try for both eyes open) tip the back sight level, my eye and theirs, tip the front sight up to complete the sight picture. Felt good to know no go bang ability, you looking down the barrel, and all!

The report that went back to their Boss, "We learned more in 4 hours than we have done in 20 years of our Training!"

I was in, and for 25 years.
 
Lohman446 said:
Salern322 I think you have hit on the “problem” with the argument. Those with .40 want to magnify the little difference in power over 9MM while ignoring the difference to 357 SIG or 10MM. Meanwhile the 9MM camp wants to discuss differences in shot timers that are equally as minimal and likely meaningless and about an 8% difference in capacity that is also likely meaningless. We can’t just have an acceptance that all concealed carry and common duty rounds are compromises and unlikely to be the key cog in an effective personal safety strategy. How can we feel smarter than others and create cliques if we don’t highlight the “superiority” of our caliber, firearm, or holster manufacture choice
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Agreed. 9-40-45 from a performance standpoint is splitting hairs in areas that are unlikely to make any practical difference. The one area where 9mm does separate itself from the others in a material way is probably cost, which either means you'll spend less practicing or you'll practice more for the same amount, either of which is a good thing.
 
Threads like this make me wonder if similar conversations were held around poker tables 100 years ago when new calibers were introduced. How many thought the 44-40 would never loose popularity, etc. Not that this is exactly apples to apples since brass casings and primers have standardized modern design, but still . . . . .
 
Brit,

You've made a lot of assumptions.

Cops have to qualify consistent with their states' POST standards. If they can't qualify, they remediate. Most cops are extremely accurate.

Cops do not target shoot. They tactically train with their weapons.

90+% of gunfights are at 10' and less. At that distance, it's instinctive point shooting (muscle memory) while getting the heck out of a bad guy's line of sight.

Hitting a bad guy is not a cop's primary objective. Not being shot is.

A miss is not necessarily a bad shot if it prevents a bad guy from shooting a cop.

A shooting is not measured by number of rounds fired. A good shoot is determined by whether cops survived. Cops could fire a hundred rounds and hit not a bad guy. As long as cops survived, it's a good outcome.

BTW, scientific tactical shooting began at LA County Sheriff's Office in the late '60's. It was adopted by all of our country's law enforcement agencies by the end of the '80's.

Law enforcement tactical shooting is highly refined science:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4VQLf-A7uA
 
Brit,

You must have missed this video:

https://en-volve.com/2019/02/22/thr...uring-attempted-murder-of-california-officer/

This professionally trained deputy performed flawlessly in response to an extremely deadly threat. She performed as taught: she kept firing until her threat was terminated. No one cares how many rounds she fired. We only care that she performed flawlessly (got out of the suspect's line of sight & took a position of tactical advantage) and survived. She remained collected under extreme threat.
 
SATRP.

Did you miss the local I was in? Toronto Canada. Toronto Police left their handguns in the locker when they went home. They started teaching headshots in 2004! I did in 1980. The huge LA simunition training, great, chaotic as only multiple opposing side training can be!

The young Lady deputy did fantastically! Standing behind a wall of pistol rounds. Her voice was so calm on the radio.

Keep firing till the threat is eliminated? How could anyone fault that?
Way to go Female Deputy.
 
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FLJim said:
In order (N.B.: My opinion):
  • 10mm: Overkill for an SD sidearm, unless you want to load it down, then what's the point?
  • 357 Sig: 9mm on velocity steroids. Concern there is over-penetration.
  • 40 Super: Don't know it, but ammo selection/price might be a concern?
  • 45 Super See above.
  • 45 (ACP, I presume): I like it for a home SD round for its lower likelihood of barrier (wall) penetration
To my way of thinking, same as it was when I first chose it, the .40 S&W hits a sweet spot: Improved terminal ballistics over 9mm and better barrier/garment penetration w/o quite as much over-penetration risk as more powerful rounds.

I might be inclined to a 10mm for carry in the woods. In fact I'm vaguely considering it. I use 45 ACP for the home defence pistol. I will soon have a 1911 in my carry rotation. I may end up with a 357 Sig in my carry rotation (but only because I can--not so much as I need to).
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Thinking is all wrong. .357 after it hits a person is less likely to overpenetrate because the hollow point is going to open up fast and the bullet weight is too low to exit the body with enough velocity to go much further.

.45, OTOH, is such a heavy, slow bullet, it just keeps going. Unless you're using a lighter bullet like 165 grain to 200 grain.

The benefit of 10mm is you get the choice of mild to wild in one gun. You don't get that with 9mm, at least not at the high end for power, and there's nothing that says you absolutely must use the max power 10mm ammo all the time, including for self defense. The middle ground for 10mm that's between .40 S&W levels and max power is ideal for many situations. Problem is people think that only the most powerful load a gun can shoot is all it should ever shoot.
 
TruthTellers,

Thinking is all wrong. .357 after it hits a person is less likely to overpenetrate because the hollow point is going to open up fast and the bullet weight is too low to exit the body with enough velocity to go much further.

.45, OTOH, is such a heavy, slow bullet, it just keeps going. Unless you're using a lighter bullet like 165 grain to 200 grain.
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How do you know this to be true? Can you post a credible cite supporting your theory?
 
This is from 2015:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=579208&highlight=is+the+40+dying

This one from 2009:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=374584&highlight=is+the+40+dying

Course this was after the crash of 2008.

Then some law enforcement agencies moved to 9mm.

So the short answer is that the 40 S&W is not dying. It's also clear that the over 10 year old discussion of it dying will go on another 10 years.

One point...the chart posted by saleen322 looks to show clearly that the 40 S&W is a more powerful round than either loading of the 9mm shown. It penetrates deeper through a wide range of materials. Not shown is that it also hits harder, momentum being on it's side. These things should provide an edge to the more powerful 40.

It's up to folks to choose what they want to carry.

tipoc
 
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