Is the 380ACP "really" an adequate self defense gun?

[IdaD]

I tend to think that about any gun is adequate for self defense because in most scenarios a bad guy is going to stop what he's doing and retreat if you start shooting at him with anything. Even a 22 is loud and would certainly sting enough to get most people's attention. So following this logic, a 380 is going to be adequate most of the time. It is less powerful than the typical defensive calibers so yes there are certain circumstances where it may fail where the others would have been successful. But if you follow that logic using any handgun for self defense is inadequate because a rifle or shotgun will work better almost all the time.

All that being said, my primary carry guns are 9mm. I wouldn't be opposed to a pocket sized gun in 380, though, and at some point I'll probably buy one.

 

[briandg]

One of the things that has come to my mind numerous times over the past years is something that I never, ever hear mentioned. Killing, disabling, etc seem to come in first, then we have evasion or avoidance, then we have run like aitch ee double hockey sticks, or hunker down and hope that the bad guy goes past and kills a couple dozen other people instead.

One thing that we never, ever seem to discuss is that when or if we have had to attack and hurt the bad guy, does it make any sense to give the guy an escape, a way out that he can take?

I fully believe that the counterattack against a bad guy should end when the engagement is no longer immediately threatening. But, what if all we did is corner the guy, put a bullet in his leg, and left him hiding behind the dumpster? What choice does he have, he has a bullet in his shoulder, he's trapped by a dumpster or in a corner, the guy who shot him is standing there screaming at him, and the very least that can happen is that he's going to be arrested? This guy behind the dumpster is probably expecting to be killed by that crazed dude with the gun and will have no choice but to keep shooting.

Should we back away from an engagement after dropping a BB into the guy's thigh and make him stop to look at it? Oh, heck yes. It's not our responsibility to stand our ground and keep shooting until the guy is dead.

This isn't the tactic to choose, obviously, carry an air soft or even a finger gun and run while the bad guy is laughing. But we keep going back to the idea that owning and carrying a "sub-par" gun will get us killed because we can't destroy the bad guy.

Even if the thing only puts the bad guy down for a few seconds, that's an opportunity to get to a better position. I don't think that anyone who has been shot will choose to continue his attack if there is a clear means of escape, or the guy who shot him has run.

Carrying a low level lethal weapon that is convenient and reliable isn't just better than nothing, it is what will almost certainly save your life. Hitting him is normally the only thing that matters. That hole will make anyone but the hardest, most determined fighter pause and reconsider, at the very least. If things go really well, a single round will put the guy on the ground long enough to avoid further contact.

All assuming that this would be safe to do. Shooting a guy in the mall and running away while he kills all of the pregnant women and children in the area seems to be kind of antisocial and irresponsible.

Having a gun that will kill a muskox isn't necessary under most normal times since muskox are usually not what you meet in the mall. A .380 with a good round and an accurate hit will be enough to stop the attack in I guess the vast majority of circumstances.

 

[JohnKSa]

I look at the chart provided and the numbers provided (12 inch penetration with good expansion) and see at least two that meet those requirements.

I suppose that assessment depends on what you mean by "good expansion". I don't see any that consistently penetrate to 12" and offer "good expansion".

The Hornady FTX Critical Defense is the only one of the loads that consistently penetrates to 12" and has what I would call "decent expansion". It shows between 40 & 50% expansion. 40-50% expansion isn't really "good" when you consider that most decent self-defense rounds in the more powerful calibers are going to expand by around 70% or more.

All of the other loads from the link that consistently make the 12" mark provide less than 15% expansion--if they expand at all.

Bottom line is that if you value penetration and expansion, it's important to understand that the .380ACP is going to make you compromise on either one or the other--or both--in ways that aren't required if you cross over the threshold to calibers that carry more momentum and energy than the .380ACP.

People have been getting shot/killed/stopped with "inadequate" calibers that don't penetrate 12" for over a hundred years.

Well, maybe that won't penetrate 12" with expanding ammo. Most calibers will get 12" of penetration with non-expanding ammo. But yes, your point is well-taken. Even calibers that the mainstream self-defense folks consider to be "inadequate" and that won't meet the FBI spec are often effective based on real-world results.

When my wife started carrying, she was adamant about carrying something small and light. Rather than tell her she had to go all in or forget about it, we looked around until we found her a gun that was small and light enough that she would carry it with her always. There is no ammunition for that gun/caliber that will meet FBI spec, but it will still very likely give her an edge over having to take an attacker on bare-handed.

As for 'expansion', it's most effective use is in selling expensive ammunition to customers.

You know, with all the differences of opinion when it comes to caliber selection and terminal ballistics, it's pretty remarkable that there doesn't seem to be any controversy at all amongst the experts about the value of expanding ammunition.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

Handgun hunting
Along with four decades in law enforcement

As for 'expansion', it's most effective use is in selling expensive ammunition to customers... if people got out and started putting metal in meat themselves, they would quickly see some reality that would change their notion of importance.

Have you done a lot of handgun hunting with so-called "marginal" calibers like .380?

 

[silvermane_1]

I'd suggest that you encourage her to find new employment. Short of that, she needs expert training with a gun/pepper spray that SHE can handle.

Avoidance of conflict is FAR better than toughing it out in a neighborhood that's explosive. No job/employer that routinely allows a young woman to close out the business day and leave with "the day's receipts" is worth working for. Get her out of the situation, then consider her concealed carry options.

Rod

While sound advice there rodfac, jobs in "safe areas" aren't exactly "growing on trees" these days, if it were my daughter i would want her to carry whatever gun she shoots with decent proficiency.

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

While sound advice there rodfac, jobs in "safe areas" aren't exactly "growing on trees" these days, if it were my daughter i would want her to carry whatever gun she shoot with decent proficiency.

Just like I love shooting the little Pocket guns, I love shooting the Snubbies. Just really makes my day and just something about them. Like the Pocket gun, I was terrible at first, but through thousands of rounds, I feel very confident in shooting them.
My favorite is a LCR9mm. Now that gun gets a heck of a lot of ammo ran through it.
And to add to my training, I shoot a LCR22.
I like putting shotgun shells or shards on the berm and letting loose especially with HYPER VELOCITY ammo. It was not long that I realized just how amazing a little 22.cal can be in the right hands. My God, 8 fast rounds into a persons neck and face! Holy crap. And someone want to tell me that a 22.cal is NOT a WEAPON? It most certainly is.
Sorry, I do not want to hear about a FBI penetration test. Focus on those all you want.
Yes, my 9mm is more effective, but also would be harder for most folks to shoot.

Both are weapons. And both can be very effective. Carrying a Pocket gun is a Habit. I carry one every day, all day. Just like bringing my Cell Phone or keys. It is there all the time. I am trained to use it and use it well. Yes, I have a Micro 9mm's and I love shooting them. But they are heavier than most people realize. About double the weight. And in the course of 365 days a year, they will not be carried like the Pocket gun. Just a fact.

And if anyone thinks a Pocket gun is not a weapon, or a serious weapon, may God have pity on you if you happen to be at the end of one. Regardless of weather you drop freight train hit you or not, you are going to have one very bad day.

Even If I do carry a 9mm, the Pocket gun is so very easy to carry along as a backup. Sometimes I actually carry two Pocket guns. The Pico which will shoot some mighty hot ammo in my Pocket and another one on my belt. Faster than carrying a extra magazine and no worry about transitioning from one gun to another. Easy to disperse the weight to both sides of the body rather than and Heavier gun on one side.

Let the daughter carry what she will be comfortable with and enjoys shooting. If she does not like to carry a heavy gun, then she will not carry, not every day. It is so Easy for her to carry a pocket gun, every day, 365 days a year.

Just be sure she knows that CCW comes at a Price. And that Price is to train often. Ammo is not cheap. Get a small 22.cal to aid in training. Shoot often and have fun with it.

Fully loaded

 

[silvermane_1]

Carl, whisle i don't own a "pocket gun"(i'm still kicking myself for not getting a SCCY 9mm for smoking deal a while back) i don't discourage anyone from doing so, the only caveat would be snubby magnums minus the 480 Ruger SRH Alaskan, that particular snubby actually does well performance wise for snubby.

 

[USNRet93]

Gee, 127 posts and this gent sums it all up in one sentence..

While sound advice there rodfac, jobs in "safe areas" aren't exactly "growing on trees" these days, if it were my daughter i would want her to carry whatever gun she shoot with decent proficiency.

 

[Lohman446]

The OPs question was:

"Is the 380ACP "really" an adequate self defense gun?"

The answer to the question is no and while truthful in the strictest Kantian sense of the word others would argue it is a lie of omission.

The 9MM is also not "really" an adequate self defense gun, nor is the great .45.

"But... but...." Look. I know. These calibers have been used in countless self defense uses in the past. So has the .22, the .32, the .380 and even the .25. Hell earlier this week a jogger in Colorado was attacked by a mountain lion and killed the thing with his bare hands. Famously Dale Peterson killed a grizzly without any firearm.

"But... but... you are attacking the 9MM" Not really. In any concealed carry pistol we have to balance out various things. Recoil, capacity, ease of concealment, etc. The 9MM balances out very well and for a lot of people is the choice they land on. Ask yourself, or the experts: if you KNEW you were going to be in a gun fight today what gun would you chose? If the answer is a pistol of any type I suggest you reconsider.

So the answer is no. The .380 is NOT adequate. However there is not a reasonably carried concealed pistol that really is.

 

[TBM900]

Your Assumption is incorrect, badly.
I've bowkilled over two dozen deer, killed a couple with muzzleloader, couple with rifle and one with 10mm pistol.

Wow, an example of.....one
And not even close to a common self defense caliber
My statement still stands

 

[TBM900]

You know, with all the differences of opinion when it comes to caliber selection and terminal ballistics, it's pretty remarkable that there doesn't seem to be any controversy at all amongst the experts about the value of expanding ammunition.

At what point did I state it had zero value.....?
Who are these 'experts' exactly......?
What methodology was used.....?
What were the data points.....?
Etc, etc, etc.....?

 

[Lohman446]

She has to close a business late at night and sometimes walks out with a money folder with the days receipt.

A bolted down locked safe (maybe even one where you can put the money in without opening it) and deposits made during daylight hours is not an unreasonable request to make of an employer. If one of my employees was putting themselves in danger, to the point where the had been any incidents, over a day's receipts without suggesting a better alternative I would not be pleased and I say that noting most of my employees have concealed carry permits.

 

[TBM900]

Have you done a lot of handgun hunting with so-called "marginal" calibers like .380?

Yes

Not to mention culls and euthanasia numbering more than I can even guess. I grew up on a ranch that has been in our family since before this nation was even a nation. This has given me the opportunity to get (more than) some actual experience far beyond what most folks will ever see. Same for the hog invasion, great for creating some actual performance results.

 

[briandg]

I'm going to go somewhere that no man really wants to go. I feel that wide diameter, and also penetration, as individual factors are both badly misunderstood. you can get both, tied together with high velocity and high bullet mass to enhance tissue disruption, and you are still going to wind up with nothing but bleeding or breaking.

Yep, that's what shooting is all about, even with a .700 NE, the plan is to break or tear things up and make them either bleed or just stop working. Damaging anything badly enough will make it stop working. It doesn't matter if you are blowing out a tire or shooting out a knee cap or large artery, all you can do is take the best shots you can with whatever you have chosen to carry and wait for God to decide. should you object to my use of god, substitute luck, fate, or whatever you prefer.

I think that you have a number of different ways to look at an expanding bullet. First, you are hoping to flatten the meplat so that displaced tissues are forced out more sharply. You want to widen the hole. You want to shred the meat a little more.

A round profile does none of the above, it slides through with minimal disruption, the fact that you get higher penetration proves that you cause less damage along the wound path.

We have the flat pointed keith bullet, and the flat point and sharp shoulder do more damage than a round point because it causes greater damage to the wound channel for several reasons. A mushroom is flat and wide and at least the current incarnation of expanding bullets create sharp and jagged profile that creates an even bloodier shredded mess.

since the thirties we have had pretty good expanding bullets available but since the fifties, we have had something more important. PICTURES.We've been inundated since that time with graphics like these that show us exactly what our bullets should do, they should form artistically perfect, nicely formed mushrooms that retained all of their weight.

Federal premium.com

Does that sound like a load of baloney?

here is a real world expanded pistol round, ugly, twisted, imperfect, and no, not perfectly and completely expanded. It could have been perfect, and expanded another 1/16th of an inch, and of course, it would have done more damage in the last few inches of penetration.

would that have mattered? would that last bit of expansion have made even a whit of difference regarding disabling or killing the target?

Ehh, probably not.

(Ammoland Shooting Sports News)

Currently we have far too much information for our own good. Back then, we bought bullets and we could count on getting the 'right one.' Get a power lokt or some such, whatever grandpa said, and you will get what experts supported. Then you had pictures to validate your decision. Now we have jello that tests and quantifies exactly what will happen when you shoot a dangerous block of jello with layered clothing, and we obsessively seek out the truth through millions of articles and blog posts, pictures, and everyone tries to take that data and make a gestalt image of what it's going to do under random real world use.

If we get twelve inches into a human body, will an extra 1/10th of an inch in diameter give it a real advantage, or is it going to be lost in all of the other complex issues?

Myself, I have come to believe that when choosing based on jello based results charts sacrificing a couple of inches of penetration to get a wider surface for the end result isn't right. When you expend more energy pushing the wider mushroom through the tissues your penetration suffers. The question I want to ask is that when you are shooting live meat, is that extra energy that was in theory causing enhanced damage along the wound track best used that way, or would it be better used adding two more inches to the length of that wound track?

two inches more can mean breaking through the spine or the tough heart muscle.

we get far too wrapped up in talking heads, infographics, charts, stats, and oh so sexy pictures of shiney, perfectly formed jello mushrooms.

none of those things will predict performance, and maybe we should put most emphasis on how deeply it will go.

no, overpenetration and subsequent injury to bystanders isn't a concern to me. If my pistol round which is rated for fifteen instead of twelve inches should actually penetrate past the 'promised' twelve inch limit of the other gun, bummer. The bystander should consider himself lucky that i wasn't using a round with 30" penetration ability. he should also be really glad that i shot through the bad guy first, instead of just recklessly spraying bullets at his head. Life isn't fair. I was just walking around living the good life and quite unexpectedly i had to save my own life and that darned ammo misbehaved. there's plenty of places to spread blame and dozens of excuses that can be made for such an event.worry about overpenetration when the time comes,rather than handicapping yourself in advance.

 

[the possum]

Quote:
As for 'expansion', it's most effective use is in selling expensive ammunition to customers.

You know, with all the differences of opinion when it comes to caliber selection and terminal ballistics, it's pretty remarkable that there doesn't seem to be any controversy at all amongst the experts about the value of expanding ammunition.

We had a real problem around our farm with raccoons tearing up everything, so we got a nuisance permit & declared war on 'em. I shot hundreds of 'em with a .45, using several different kinds of ammo, including hardball, cast lead round nose, Gold Dots (handloaded), Silver Tips, Win & Rem white box hollowpoints, Nosler HP, and others.

On the whole, over the course of blasting scores of varmints, it seemed like the hollowpoints did a little better. But there was almost no way to predict how things would go down in any one situation. Sometimes they'd be done after a round or two of hardball, and sometimes they'd still be trying to crawl away after soaking up a mag full of Gold Dots at point blank range.

I'm not trying to say this exactly how things work against humans, and I hope to never find out. I decided I'd much rather have good hollowpoints if I have the choice, to stack the deck in my favor. But I wouldn't feel unarmed with hardball, and understand there's no such thing as a magic bullet that will transform a common defensive pistol into a death ray. YMMV.

 

[Lohman446]

Remember stopping power is not about the end result in five minutes. Its about what happens QUICKLY enough to alter the outcome of a fight. If you are depending on your pistol to do that I think you can find many stories of pistols failing to do just that. I happen to have an easy way to access first hand accounts of deer sized animals hit with rifles.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=599495

This is a thread in another subsection of the forum about deer hit with high powered rifles and substantial internal damage that seem to survive much longer periods of time then expected. We are talking rifles that have in the neighborhood of 3000 ft lbs of energy.

I cannot emphasis enough that the argument highlighting the differences between a .380 and 9MM seem to be highlighting the trivial

 

[briandg]

You know, with all the differences of opinion when it comes to caliber selection and terminal ballistics, it's pretty remarkable that there doesn't seem to be any controversy at all amongst the experts about the value of expanding ammunition.

It's possible that expansion isn't really as valuable as we think that it is.

i'm not saying this as a fact. But it should be considered.

Lets do an analysis. Let's assume that we have 150 grains of projectile at 1,000 fps, and let's assume that it is a solid bullet.

At .308 it will punch deeply and cause only minimal damage and a narrow hole. At .358 it will penetrate a little less and create a wider hole, causing a little more damage. At .45, that 150 grain bullet isn't going to penetrate well at all. Not at 1,000 fps. but it will, as promised, make a hole of .45" diameter.

What is good about an expanding bullet? it is small and allows good penetration for the first few inches and then gets wider as it penetrates to the inner organs and tissues. You don't need a .45" hole going through the skin, you need it when you are going through the heart.

What happens when a bullet expands? a lot of energy is wasted reshaping that lead. Where a solid unexpanding round projectile may penetrate 24", an expanding bullet may be stopped at only 12". Part of that is the extra drag of the expanded bullet and part of that is the energy taken up by mutilating the bullet.

But neither of these issues answer it all. We can tweak velocity and shape, and we need to consider all sorts of other variables, rather than just setting an abitrary weight and diameter like I just did.

I like the idea of an expanding bullet for the single reason that it allows the bullet to get past the chest or abdomen wall with little loss of energy, then creating a more dangerous wound path farther into the wound channel.

 

[CDW4ME]

Wow, an example of.....one
And not even close to a common self defense caliber
My statement still stands

Post up your pics of deer shot with "common" defensive calibers including measurement to show how 380 does indistinguishable damage from 40 or 45 acp.

I'll say it ^ ain't happening; prove me wrong please.

Example: Here is lungs shot with 9mm HST wound measures .65 versus lungs shot with 45 HST wound is about .85

Like this:

You statement (point) is what?
If you are trying to convince me that 380 is equivalent to 9mm/40/45 it aint happening either.

In my experience some people expend a lot of effort trying to justify carrying a marginal caliber like 380 when the reality is they are unwilling (or unable due to work) to dress around something bigger than a small pocket gun, rather than admit it they rationalize the caliber.

 

[JERRYS.]

Post up your pics of deer shot with "common" defensive calibers including measurement to show how 380 does indistinguishable damage from 40 or 45 acp.

I'll say it ^ ain't happening; prove me wrong please.

Example: Here is lungs shot with 9mm HST wound measures .65 versus lungs shot with 45 HST wound is about .85

Like this:

You statement (point) is what?
If you are trying to convince me that 380 is equivalent to 9mm/40/45 it aint happening either.

In my experience some people expend a lot of effort trying to justify carrying a marginal caliber like 380 when the reality is they are unwilling (or unable due to work) to dress around something bigger than a small pocket gun, rather than admit it they rationalize the caliber.

bullet for bullet I don't think anyone is trying to say a smaller, lighter, and sometimes slower bullet it better. this thread started as an opinion seeking thread to make one feel better about something less than a .44 magnum. the size of the gun matters not only for concealability but for shootability. not everyone can dress around a large gun. not everyone can handle a larger caliber. an 8 shot .22lr LCR is better than a 5 shot .38spl LCR if the shooter can quickly and accurately hit with the first considerably better than they can with the second. no one is saying bullet for bullet the .22lr is better than the .38 spl.

 

[Lohman446]

In my experience some people expend a lot of effort trying to justify carrying a marginal caliber like 380 when the reality is they are unwilling (or unable due to work) to dress around something bigger than a small pocket gun, rather than admit it they rationalize the caliber.

I find something very similar and rather opposite as people try to justify their choice of a 9MM vs a .380 (or .40 or .45). The funny part is I carry a 9MM but the difference amounts to a molehill that some people try to make a mountain out of.