Is the 380ACP "really" an adequate self defense gun?

[Lohman446]

It’s not a complaint about recoil. If the purpose of going to a 380 is because of recoil sensitivity the direct blow backs like the P232 are not a good choice. There are guns in 380 that will have much less perceived recoil. This is not intended as an assault against the P230 or P232. Its an observation.

 

[edcwhitewolf92]

well if you can put someone down with a .22 you definitely can with a .380 I think it definitely works. I sure wouldn't want to get shot with one...

 

[JERRYS.]

While there is truth in your statement I think it drastically downplays the role of an individual in avoidance of conflict. Think about how your decisions can increase or decrease the likelihood of a violent confrontation in which you are not the initiator of violence. For instance one could be amazed that the Amish, who are mostly sworn to pacifism, are not every day the victims of violence based on your statement. Easy victims, often dealing in successful cash businesses, and (for the purposes of use against other humans) unarmed. If violence was solely at the discretion of the attacker then these individuals should be a major target.

um, yeah. that's basically what I said and why I had two sentences....

regarding the bolded portion, their lack of victimization is usually because of their isolation, not because a criminal doesn't want to attack them.

 

[jar]

The caliber I choose for protection is 380.

I have other choices available, 32S&W 38S&W, 38Special, 357, 9mm, 9mmMak, 44Special, 44Mag, 45Colt, 45acp.

I have the handguns, the ammunition, the experience, the holsters for any of those.

Yet what I carry is one (or more) of the small 380 pistols.

When I do carry one of the other choices I will also be carrying one of the small 380 pistols.

I've been shooting handguns since Ike was President and my first 380 was probably while JFK was still in office.

But today's pocket 380s are smaller and lighter and slimmer and easier to maintain than the Beretta, MAB, Browning or Walther of the 50s & 60, as or more accurate, with more efficient ammo than we could buy back then.

Does that make a 380 "really" an adequate self defense gun?

For me the answer is "Yes". I can shoot them well, maintain them easily, conceal them is most any clothes and all over my body. I find them easy to present rapidly, shoot rapidly and accurately, relatively inexpensive to buy and maintain and as reliable as any handguns I have now or have owned in the past.

 

[rodfac]

after a couple of incidents my daughter asked about getting a pistol.

I'd suggest that you encourage her to find new employment. Short of that, she needs expert training with a gun/pepper spray that SHE can handle.

Avoidance of conflict is FAR better than toughing it out in a neighborhood that's explosive. No job/employer that routinely allows a young woman to close out the business day and leave with "the day's receipts" is worth working for. Get her out of the situation, then consider her concealed carry options.

Rod

 

[MoArk Willy]

This will teach the OP to ask a question here.
In my opinion....
There are no bad calibers for self defense.
But it isn't about the caliber or the gun, it's about the persons commitment in learning how to use it properly.
If you practice regularly with a .22, carry it everyday and be comfortable using it, it is a million times more deadly and useful than a .357 magnum kept in a night stand for years while waiting for the bump in the night.
Situational awareness, avoidance, practice and a willingness to use a firearm are what is important....not weight, caliber or manufacturer.
Predators will always be there. It's up to us to thwart them in any way we can.
If we can't change our routine, our habits, our jobs or even our residence then we have to prepare ourselves. It's not only our right it's our duty to make self preservation the most important thing in our lives.

 

[Lexspeed]

I enjoy reading these threads that quickly gravitate into "caliber debates". I find I frequently learn something new and I am always amused by the ensuing pie throwing.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

In terms of the most common self defense situations for the average citizen, there is almost no practical difference between the most common calibers.

The person who shared this also talked about hunting. As we've heard in the rifle comments, that's often a much higher power level. The normal sorts of handguns we see for daily carry just don't cause the same kinds of damage. They are further down the scale where small differences in power can be important. In the case of .380 or .38 special, adequate penetration and expansion are questionable enough to generate threads like this one.

The fact is that we don't have great statistics for self-defense encounters. What we do know is that they are unpredictable and can happen fast. It is entirely possible that you'll be entangled with an attacker, or injured, or in a poor position, or whatever else. You might not get a clean draw. Your only hope might be shooting someone in the gut, the arm, the thigh, etc. Such a shot might cause the attacker to stop due to pain, fear, or realization of being shot. If not, you'd better hope it does enough mechanical damage to give you an edge.

On the off chance that your life ends up depending on whether that shot broke a bone, disabled a muscle, etc... You have to decide if you're comfortable betting on .380 from whatever barrel length is in question. Yeah, the chance of this happening is small but so is the chance that you'll need your gun at all. If .380 is all you can comfortably carry, then carry it. If you can reasonably carry 9mm, then why wouldn't you?

 

[JohnKSa]

Do the people that complain about harsh recoil from a blowback design also avoid shooting revolvers? Because they are fixed barrels as well!

I know at least one person who does exactly that. Absolutely no centerfire revolvers and blowback .380ACP pistols have to be large, relatively heavy and with a very comfortable grip. Think Beretta 84/86 pistols.

 

[Lohman446]

The card stacking defense of the 9MM continues

.380 - this round is puny and only marginal at best. The difference in recoil between this and a 9MM is insignificant and the power advantage is significant

9MM - The gods could not have designed a better cartridge

.40 - way too powerful. The difference in “mechanical advantage” between this and 9MM is insignificant and the difference in recoil is significant

The arbitrary lines required are amusing at first then the realization of the argument is logically alarming. If the shooter in question is not comfortable with 9MM but is with .380 go with 380. The chances of the difference in “mechanical advantage” ever mattering are virtually zero

 

[JohnKSa]

The arbitrary lines required are amusing at first...

There is one line that is not really arbitrary.

People who want consistent penetration to a minimum of 12" with reasonable expansion will find that kind of performance is difficult to obtain with the .380ACP. Rounds that penetrate to 12" reliably don't expand very much, if at all, and the ones that do expand well, have a hard time reaching 12" of penetration.

Here's some expansion/penetration data--of all the loads tested, there's really only one that offered decent expansion and that reliably penetrated to 12".

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

One could argue that the 12" figure is arbitrary, but since it has a basis in average anatomy, that would be a difficult argument to support.

I'm already on record as saying that .380ACP is adequate, and I do carry it from time to time, but I am cognizant of its limitations when used with most expanding ammunition.

Once you get significantly above the .380ACP power level, there's enough energy for bullet designers to get both good expansion and good penetration.

 

[Lohman446]

I look at the chart provided and the numbers provided (12 inch penetration with good expansion) and see at least two that meet those requirements. If I’m willing to give up expansion I get a few more choices. The 12” cut off does not make he 380 inadequate though as you note your argument is not that it is. The limitations of the 380 are likely largely shared by the majority of common defensive calibers.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

People have been getting shot/killed/stopped with "inadequate" calibers that don't penetrate 12" for over a hundred years.
It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

People have been getting shot/killed/stopped with "inadequate" calibers that don't penetrate 12" for over a hundred years.
It's not the arrow, it's the Indian.

Yes, Bill, not only killed buy disabled to the point of stopping the attack. From all the training I have done with the small 380's over the years and the confidence I have from that training has me convinced that they are serious weapons. Some of these rounds getting extremely great penetration, and nasty would channels.
Some folks get so wrapped up in FBI penetration test they fail to realize that is just a standard for Police etc. Many 380 rds. are meeting those test and if not, does not mean they are not good for self defense. And some companies like Underwood are getting really serious about this round. The "Defender and Cavitaor are even getting fantastic results out of a 32.cal.

The Op's daughter choose the 380. I would bet she knows her lifestye better than many of us here. And her lifestyle might just be one in which she knows the weapon she would carry every day. And to carry each day,Proper training combined with situational awareness, will trump any gun left at home. There has to be comfort in the fact that she would always be armed.
And to anyone that thinks a 380 is simply better than nothing, then God forbid that 3-7 rounds of sizzling 380 never comes into their chest, face, neck etc. They would learn very fast, that the 380 is more than just something better than nothing.
And dead men tell no lies.

 

[TBM900]

The person who shared this also talked about hunting. As we've heard in the rifle comments, that's often a much higher power level. The normal sorts of handguns we see for daily carry just don't cause the same kinds of damage. They are further down the scale where small differences in power can be important. In the case of .380 or .38 special, adequate penetration and expansion are questionable enough to generate threads like this one.

Handgun hunting
Along with four decades in law enforcement

As for 'expansion', it's most effective use is in selling expensive ammunition to customers.
Expansion with the most common handgun calibers is relatively inconsequential as compared to penetration. But people have been lead by the nose to believe it is a major factor, so they hang their emotions on it and argue endlessly about its merits. Again, if people got out and started putting metal in meat themselves, they would quickly see some reality that would change their notion of importance.

 

[TBM900]

The difference in the actual amount of recoil force between a Sig P232 and a S&W 380EZ is inconsequential (less than 5%). The large difference in felt or perceived recoil between the guns is because the Sig is a blow-back design that delivers it recoil force in one sharp motion while the S&W is a locked-breech design that spreads its recoil force out over time.

I own the firearms being discussed, I know how they operate.
There is a HUGE difference between them while firing, and the Sig is no where near a 22lr

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Hunting? Lol, Never used a 380 or even a 9mm. Mosly Rifles like 308 etc and shotguns. Have shot a lot of small game with 22.cal and know a number of guys killing Coyote with 22.Mag.Taking a deer down at 50 to 100 yds, or one at 40 yards with a shotgun, is not to be compared to handguns where the distance is so much closer.

We need to get off this caliber war. It is going no where. A lot of internet Ballistic experts should not be relied upon. It is getting more than ridiculous.

 

[the possum]

Many have wisely pointed out that your daughter needs to practice with whatever gun she gets. So I'm surprised that no one has come out and said this:

Buy her a case of practice ammo to go along with the gun!!!

.380 ammo is expensive to buy in stores. If she has to make a decision on 20 separate occasions whether to drop the cash on a box of ammo, then at least some of those times will probably result in a "no". Go ahead and spend another $225 to have 1000 rounds delivered, so she won't have any mental excuse to not practice.
https://ammoseek.com/ammo/380-auto?co=new&ca=brass


That said, I like some of the ideas already mentioned about keeping her out of this situation in the first place. Make sure she can park in a well lit area when she's closing, even if most employees normally can't. Why can't they keep the cash in a safe until the next day, so they can do the bank run in the morning? If the boss protests that it could be stolen overnight, then he's telling you he'd rather your daughter take a chance on getting killed than losing one day's worth of receipts.

I do drop a tiny .380 in my pocket fairly often simply because it's easy, light, and far more comfortable to carry than a bigger gun in my (already tight) waistband. But that's only because I expect zero chance of actually needing it, and figure it's better to have something just in case. If I were routinely put in sketchy situations, after "a few incidents" have already happened, then comfort be damned! I'd be carrying the biggest gun I could get away with.

 

[imabmwnut]

You won’t find anyone who wants a second round.

 

[CDW4ME]

I would highly HIGHLY HIGHLY encourage you to get out and do some hunting.

If you do so you'll quickly learn that such 'data points' as you assert are next to meaningless in actual flesh, blood, and bone. In terms of the most common self defense situations for the average citizen, there is almost no practical difference between the most common calibers.

Your Assumption is incorrect, badly.
I've bowkilled over two dozen deer, killed a couple with muzzleloader, couple with rifle and one with 10mm pistol.
A 155 XTP 10mm expands to about .65 yet somehow made holes bigger than .95

Unlike "doctors who can't tell a difference" I used a unit for measurement (quarter = .95) for documentation.