Is the 380ACP "really" an adequate self defense gun?

[TruthTellers]

The issue with .380 isn't power, it has enough of it to be useful, but more so the guns. Either they're micro pocket pistols with short barrels that are difficult to shoot or they're larger pistols that are big enough to be 9mm.

Ammo is another issue, the hollow points expanding a light 90 grain .355" bullet causes a lot of drag to lower penetration vs heavier 9mm bullets. About the best performance I've seen with .380 JHP's is nearly anything Hornady. I have a preferance for Inceptor ammo mainly because it doesn't rely on a hollow point to work, it's a light and fast bullet that tumbles after it hits tissue, so it causes good damage.

.380 is adequate, heck .32 ACP was adequate during the first half of the 20th Century.

 

[USNRet93]

Some people choose .380 because small guns are chambered in that caliber, but there are many other reasons. Locked-breech .380s have very low recoil, which makes tiny guns manageable. Low recoil also allows faster shooting and better accuracy, particularly by people who practice infrequently.



I am not sure the Girsan MC14 is currently being imported since Zenith stopped importing that pistol line (9/21/2017 "Zenith sold all remaining inventory of its eliminated product lines, which include Tisas, Girsan, and Tedna, to Texas-based firearms wholesale liquidator CDNN Sports."). The Beretta Cheetahs (double-stack model 84 and single-stack model 85) are indeed fine pistols. More modern alternatives include the double-stack Sig P250 (sadly discontinued) and single-stack S&W M&P 380 Shield EZ.

And the Glock 42..a fine handgun, easy to shoot and carry. I have 2, and the older has been thru about 2000 rounds w/o a single fai,ure of any kind. A wee bit bigger than a lot of 'pocket' .380, but smaller than the Shield and Beretta and Browning..Inexpensive too, I got my latest pne for $323(GunBroker)..

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

The 380 Pocket pistol can be as hard to shoot as it can be easy. That is going to be determined by the shooter. Yes, it is harder to learn, or a bigger learning curve. But a shooter that dedicates himself to shooting one, can be a deadly or more deadly than many shooters with bigger calibers. Yes, it requires time and it requires a lot of ammo down range a lot of training session. But in the right hands, they can be down right deadly. They can be very fast to draw, and again, the fastest draw will be one where the shooter has his hand on the gun.
The 380 round is is improving fast. Ammo manufacturers know that the 380 will be around for a long time and they are developing some very serious rounds. Check out Underwood and Lehigh. They are some very serious rounds. My gosh, any one hit with the Penetration or damage from one of those rounds will not be saying nonsense like "well it is better than nothing".
From results it has even been a game changer for the 32.cal. PrecisionOne was rated very well with test down some years ago. That round now has a Plus P rated round.

Here is just one video on a series of training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=169&v=TR7H3lbNTBw

 

[briandg]

"Better than nothing" is not the criteria I use to select a pistol that my be the primary thing stopping somebody(s) from killing me.

Is that a standard set by SAAMI, or is it a standard set by someone who has never shot anyone with a .380 or even a .357 or .45?

What makes the .380 only "better than nothing"? Better than nothing is having a fist, a knife, a club, or a broken bottle. Better than nothing is basic tooth and claw opposed to sitting waiting to die. A .380? You have a gun to shoot the bad guy with, and boy, it's going to put a pretty good hole in him. It continually amazes me that the round that the soviet bloc managed to kill dissidents and enemies of the people a dozen times a day with a makarov pistol, yet people here still think that the .380 is inadequate? You would rather have a 9mm? My dad thought that the 9mm was not just inadequate, but pathetic as well.

'Adequate' and 'preferred' involve more than just a person's opinion on whether or not the round will stop an attack.

Here is a simple fact. The difference between a .380 and a 9mm is the smallest possible factor in the question of whether or not a pedestrian will make it past a potential armed robber without getting hurt or dead.

 

[HighValleyRanch]

f you want a better option in this category, check out the MC-14. It's a modern "compact" .380 that borrows heavily from the Browning BDA and Beretta 84. As you'll see in this excellent video review, it can take some accessories from them as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ISQxWA7Tw

Thanks for that link! I wasn't aware this existed. Nice looking and functional pistol and super review!

 

[Lohman446]

I think Brian is making the argument well. If the reason you failed to defend yourself is the difference between a quality 9MM and a quality .380 you have done or had things go immensely and unbelievably wrong.

I would dare to argue that if the person believes a .380 is better suited to him or herself and opts for a 9MM instead due to internet pressure the difference in mindset alone is likely to pose far more of a problem than the difference between a .380 and a 9MM.

Comfortable with a .380 and not a 9MM? GET THE .380.

 

[tipoc]

Buying a gun for someone else is similar to buying them a pair of shoes or a dress. Not a good idea unless you know exactly what they want. Even then it's best for them to try it on before laying out the cash. So they should be the one choosing the gun and the caliber. You just along for the cash.

Encourage your daughter to go over to this web site and look around.

https://www.corneredcat.com/

Many women have discovered that even if they have a husband or friend ready and willing to do every last bit of the legwork or even purchase a gun for them, it really pays off to do your own shopping anyway.

“My husband bought me my first gun,” says Jennie van Tuyl, a gun shop owner in Washington. “He tried to research which guns had smaller grips for me. We learned the hard way that one needs to be involved in the shopping for her own gun. I decided I needed a gun that fit my hand better and was easier to conceal.”

Many women could sing along on that chorus. The well-meant gift gun that ends up gathering dust in a deserted drawer or (better) in the back of the safe is very nearly a clich’. Almost as trite is the gun purchased by a loved one while the woman comes along as a silent partner rather than an active participant.

https://www.corneredcat.com/article/choosing-firearms/gun-store-miss-adventures/

I encourage all to look over this site it's one of the better gunsites on the web.

tipoc

 

[DaleA]

Yeah. This above. (Post #67)
And another vote for reading "Cornered Cat". It's just plain good for everybody, man and woman and, of course, other. Just EVERYBODY!!!

 

[CDW4ME]

hell, if that's the case get your petite daughter a short barreled .44 mag loaded with mid powered magnums. BTW, how far into the human body do you have to go to reach the heart? its about 3-4"; the brain is even less. muzzle energy is nice and all but hardly a good measure of a bullets effectiveness on a criminal.

I prefer something I can shoot quickly & accurately, Glock 19/23/32, 20/21 or 1911
Consistent expansion and 12-18'' penetration is an accepted standard for defensive ammunition, not something I made up.

 

[Lohman446]

Consistent expansion and 12-18'' penetration is an accepted standard for defensive ammunition, not something I made up.

Is this standard not met by quality .380 ammunition?

 

[CDW4ME]

You really need to speak for yourself. Just because YOU cannot shoot a small gun well, does not mean the others can't. And you need to do more research on 380. And a Small 380 will Not have as much recoil and a small 9mm. Where you get that information is totally bogus. Shoot a Kahr 380 then a Kahr CM 9mm. If you think the recoil is the same? Lol, not even close.
Better than nothing is not your criteria? Sorry Dude, a 380 is a lot more than better or nothing. Some one could same the same about a small 9. And once again, Because YOU cannot shoot one fast and accurate is surely not every body. If fact a pocket gun can be extremely fast and accurate. And no faster gun than one where the shooter has his hand on one. As in a pocket.

And please stop with the condescending remarks like Do you want to settle for "adequate" for your daughter / yourself or would you rather bet life on "preferred".

The Op's daughter made a choice and just because YOU do not agree does not mean squat. By the way, there are classes that teach Small gun defense and 380 pocket guns are in that class. If she trains often, she can and will master the small gun and be very deadly. Good for her! (and most likely she will have this small gun with her at all times. So easy to carry anywhere and everywhere. That is alone is very comforting.

I did speak for myself, IME = In My Experience
I had a LCP and a P3AT 380 I did shoot them in comparison with Kahr PM9 and Glock 43, the 9mm were easier to shoot quickly & accurately.
PM9 is a pocket pistol.
Condescending, like your reply?

 

[Cheapshooter]

Sammi rating for 380, there is Plus P ammo.

Since when? Has it been recently added by SAAMI?
Any boutique ammo maker can add the moniker "+P" to the label on their over pressure ammo. But that does not mean that there is a SAAMI rating. Just that they are hijacking the term for advertising hype.

 

[briandg]

Buying a gun for someone else is similar to buying them a pair of shoes or a dress. Not a good idea unless you know exactly what they want

Actually it can work out really well. my dad did that all of the time, both scenarios. If he couldn't find a gift, he would buy some horse-butt ugly dress for her in the wrong size, for however much he wanted to spend, and pin the receipt to it. Three days later she would have a new piece of jewelry.

He bought her a lot of fishing rods and an occasional gun, too.

Oh, you don't like those binoculars? Too heavy? Well, that's a shame.
Why don't we just keep them, and next time we're at the store we'll find a pair that you like.

Aww, gee, honey, I really thought that you could cast a rod that long. We'll get you a new one before we go fishing again. Oh, poop. The return by has expired!

I never would have guessed that this gun would be too big for your purse! But honey, a .45 1911 is the very best self defense round there is! Don't worry, I'll keep this one, and we can go out next week and get one for you that will fit your purse.

Let me just throw this one out there.

What is keeping us from discussing getting TWO firearms? She can use a larger framed 9mm as a carry weapon during winter or when travelling, any time that she feels that she can properly conceal it. She can get a lot of practice in on it. She can have a .380 as well, and with sufficient practice she can be fluent in both languages.

Remember, if a novice is carrying two pistols with different fire control systems, it is just one step above being stupid.

Oh, holy flying purple poop balls! a bad guy!

Will this kid who is going to be VERY distracted by the guy with the knife remember that this one has a safety, and remember to unset it? Will the kid remember that the OTHER gun is the one with the safety, and fumble around for a second or two trying to figure it out?

Then let's ask the really hard question.

What if the kid doesn't keep a round in the chamber and fumbles drawing the slide back?

when a defensive carry gun is being used by a novice it must be kept simple. Even a well trained individual should think twice about these issues.

 

[briandg]

It has been mentioned several times that there are so many other ways to keep this kid and her bank bag safe, and that a gun is just a very small part of the thinking.

I would want mace in her hand and keys dangling from her little finger with her other personal effects on the left side. She must Get into combat ready position before she even unlocks the door to leave, and never go off her guard until she is safe from those particular risks. This does happen, even in sleepy little towns where everyone knows each other. In fact, one of the killings that took place here was a stalker who killed the girl whom he was stalking outside the door of our mall. On the back side, in the dark, where only employees parked.

So, for example, maybe the closing night workers should be allowed to park in front?

I assure you that this suggestion to the supervisors would be more helpful than all of the discussion in the world about this cartridge.

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Since when? Has it been recently added by SAAMI?
Any boutique ammo maker can add the moniker "+P" to the label on their over pressure ammo. But that does not mean that there is a SAAMI rating. Just that they are hijacking the term for advertising hype.

No one said it has been added to Saami rating. But that does not mean there is not Plus p ammo. And obviously you have not been paying attention. These are serious reputabl. manufacturers. Yes, maybe Saami needs to start adding the 380. especially since the Popularity is growing all the time. If you have not seen some of the Plus P in the many reviews and test, then sorry, not much I can do for you.

Just because you or I are not on Trumps Christmas card list, does not mean we do not exist.

Just a example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

I did speak for myself, IME = In My Experience
I had a LCP and a P3AT 380 I did shoot them in comparison with Kahr PM9 and Glock 43, the 9mm were easier to shoot quickly & accurately.
PM9 is a pocket pistol.
Condescending, like your reply?

Lol, read your own post. First of all you said Kahr 380. If you think a Kahr 380 has a lot of recoil then, I have to wonder if you have ever shot one and actually compared it to the Kahr Cm 9. Big difference. I see you then then omit the CW 380 and only compare the LCP and Keltec. Well I can understand this, but real facts even though both are very snappy, they actually do not have as much recoil. And both are unpleasant to shoot.

Here are some facts. The Kahr CW 380 is a very pleasant gun to shoot, the CM 9 not so.

Kahr CW380 has a 5.39 recoil factor
Kahr CM 9mm 8.26
using a use a public domain Standard Free Recoil equation to calculate recoil.

 

[briandg]

An old guy once saw my .380 bodyguard and he remarked 'oh, that must hurt! It's so darned small!' I explained that the .380 didn't have a whole lot of recoil, small bullet, slow bullet, he'd never fired one. I imagine that it truly could hurt if you have the wrong kind of hands, or if your hands are just sensitive to recoil.

He, on the other hand, worked at an all night car wash and he kept a .38 special loaded with *P 158 hollow points at his desk. He was army, and almost certainly shot the 1911. He knows all about recoil.

Until a few different ones are tested nobody can really know what it will be like.

Hey, does anyone here own a .500 S&W magnum? They must be really cool. I found an empty shell once, and I keep my pencils in it next to my reloading bench. There's a page somewhere on the internet, a guy referred to the thing as 'stout, but manageable." In the video, he lost his grip several times, his left hand pulled loose.

If he calls that manageable, fine and dandy. He's probably got some pretty weird ideas about lots of things.

 

[1MoreFord]

Don't buy your daughter a gun...take her to a shooting range and let her find one she is comfortable with, one she will practice with and one she is happy with. Let her pick it out and get the one she wants. And yes a .380 is perfect for some people....like a .45 is, a 9mm is or a .357 magnum. It depends on the shooter way more than the gun itself.
If she won't practice with it it really doesn't matter what you buy her. May as well be a rock.
Does she want a gun or is this daddys idea?

This advice Cannot be stressed enough. Don't buy guns for wives or daughters without their input. Let them make their choice.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

Is this standard not met by quality .380 ammunition?

Here is an excellent resource for ammo tests in gel. Take a look at the .380 section and compare it to 9mm (etc).

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests

Gel is a good standard medium for comparing ammo and we can learn a lot from it. However, it isn't the same as animals or bad guys. Unlike uniform gel, there are different tissues, organs, bones, etc. and a host of other factors involved. So while you don't get the whole story from gel, meeting the FBI standard in gel should at least be helpful in getting to the right place for average-sized humans who mean you harm.

 

[USNRet93]

Here is an excellent resource for ammo tests in gel. Take a look at the .380 section and compare it to 9mm (etc).

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests

Gel is a good standard medium for comparing ammo and we can learn a lot from it. However, it isn't the same as animals or bad guys. Unlike uniform gel, there are different tissues, organs, bones, etc. and a host of other factors involved. So while you don't get the whole story from gel, meeting the FBI standard in gel should at least be helpful in getting to the right place for average-sized humans who mean you harm.

I think this is an important point..Not that 'gel firing' simulates a body but it DOES give a relative comparison for different ammo types. Same for the gent that shoots thru 8 layers of denim and then a cantelope, then a bag of water..using XTreme Defender type then JHP..NOT that is simulates a 'body' but it shows relative strengths and possible weakness' well. AS I hear all the time, tough to find somebody who wants to take a round in the chest for testing.

Cosmodragoon above said the same thingbut I think it's important.