Is the 380ACP "really" an adequate self defense gun?

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The figures used to defend "9MM or nothing" are arbitrarily picked. Why 380 ft lbs of energy? Why not 500? Why not 800? It basically takes the conclusion (9MM) and builds the argument to it.

Can you put shots on target with a "reasonable" round? Good enough

Define reasonable how you wish.

The P230 and P232 are beautiful guns. Because they are direct blow back it totally defeats the purpose of going down to the .380 for recoil reasons. They generate far more perceived recoil than any gun that heavy in .380 has an excuse for other than an antiquated design.
 
I do not bet my life on 380 and I would not want my wife or child to either.
A very few 380 loads consistently expand and penetrate 12-18'' which is a desirable standard.
IME, a small 380 (LCP) recoils as much or more than a 9mm like Kahr CM/PM 9 and the small 380 is harder to shoot quickly & accurately than the slightly bigger 9mm.
"Better than nothing" is not the criteria I use to select a pistol that my be the primary thing stopping somebody(s) from killing me.
My philosophy is of the pistols you own carry the pistol you would prefer in your hand if you had to defend your life.
Sticking with two small pistols for comparison:
Ruger LCP: Gold Dot 90 gr. 841 fps / 141# KE
Ruger LCP: Ranger T 95 gr. 876 fps / 162# KE
Kahr PM9: Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,139 fps / 357# KE
Kahr PM9: Corbon 115 +P JHP @ 1,264 fps / 408# KE
Those 9mm loads generate more than double the KE of the 380 loads.
Do you want to settle for "adequate" for your daughter / yourself or would you rather bet life on "preferred".
hell, if that's the case get your petite daughter a short barreled .44 mag loaded with mid powered magnums. BTW, how far into the human body do you have to go to reach the heart? its about 3-4"; the brain is even less. muzzle energy is nice and all but hardly a good measure of a bullets effectiveness on a criminal.
 
They generate far more perceived recoil than any gun that heavy in .380 has an excuse for other than an antiquated design.
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Utter nonsense. Mine has recoil like a .22!
typical 7 yard group at medium pace.
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Don’t want to derail this discussion but jiminy christmas, the ‘state sponsored’ classes should look like this. My ‘state approved’ CCW class was an incredible waste of time.
what other right would you prefer have additional hurdles to overcome, voting maybe? gotta have a job, own property and be literate....
 
Utter nonsense. Mine has recoil like a .22!

Than there was something wrong with the two I have owned. Nice guns for certain, as accurate as I had reason to expect, but light on recoil? No...

Mine were both P232 but it should not have made a difference.
 
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what other right would you prefer have additional hurdles to overcome, voting maybe? gotta have a job, own property and be literate....
Guess that noise is the point zooming over her head..my point is that the state sponsored CCW course I had was poor, and it would be nice if it was better, was my point. I learned nothing other than ’join the NRA’ and an hour of why the shooters/insurance/lawyer was a great idea. Nothing about government or requirements or anything like that.
 
.380 is a good defensive round because it's easy to control and usually packed inside of a handgun small enough to carry. That means you'll actually have it on you.
 
I do not bet my life on 380 and I would not want my wife or child to either.
A very few 380 loads consistently expand and penetrate 12-18'' which is a desirable standard.
IME, a small 380 (LCP) recoils as much or more than a 9mm like Kahr CM/PM 9 and the small 380 is harder to shoot quickly & accurately than the slightly bigger 9mm.
"Better than nothing" is not the criteria I use to select a pistol that my be the primary thing stopping somebody(s) from killing me.
My philosophy is of the pistols you own carry the pistol you would prefer in your hand if you had to defend your life.
Sticking with two small pistols for comparison:
Ruger LCP: Gold Dot 90 gr. 841 fps / 141# KE
Ruger LCP: Ranger T 95 gr. 876 fps / 162# KE
Kahr PM9: Winchester Ranger T 124 +P @ 1,139 fps / 357# KE
Kahr PM9: Corbon 115 +P JHP @ 1,264 fps / 408# KE
Those 9mm loads generate more than double the KE of the 380 loads.
Do you want to settle for "adequate" for your daughter / yourself or would you rather bet life on "preferred".
You really need to speak for yourself. Just because YOU cannot shoot a small gun well, does not mean the others can't. And you need to do more research on 380. And a Small 380 will Not have as much recoil and a small 9mm. Where you get that information is totally bogus. Shoot a Kahr 380 then a Kahr CM 9mm. If you think the recoil is the same? Lol, not even close.
Better than nothing is not your criteria? Sorry Dude, a 380 is a lot more than better or nothing. Some one could same the same about a small 9. And once again, Because YOU cannot shoot one fast and accurate is surely not every body. If fact a pocket gun can be extremely fast and accurate. And no faster gun than one where the shooter has his hand on one. As in a pocket.

And please stop with the condescending remarks like Do you want to settle for "adequate" for your daughter / yourself or would you rather bet life on "preferred".

The Op's daughter made a choice and just because YOU do not agree does not mean squat. By the way, there are classes that teach Small gun defense and 380 pocket guns are in that class. If she trains often, she can and will master the small gun and be very deadly. Good for her! (and most likely she will have this small gun with her at all times. So easy to carry anywhere and everywhere. That is alone is very comforting.
 
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Back around 1980 when I was just starting in pistol shooting a few of us had a discussion; 38 snubby or a 14 round 380. Back then I would rather have more rounds than more powder, feel the same way today. In a time of crisis and split second reaction, how many hits on target is the average shooter going to achieve?
 
It is adequate to me. When I carry, it's what I carry. But, who am I...nobody really. To some, I'm probably a walking talking victim waiting to happen because of my choice of anemic defensive caliber. If she's comfortable with it enough to practice and carry, then YES, it IS adequate.
 
Willy, I agree with you totally. I don't force a gun on anyone. My daughter is taking the required classes at 43 years of age because she wants to not because I came up with the idea. I told her I would buy her a gun of her choice as long as she does a few things before EVER carrying concealed for PP. There are good training classes (better than the State sponsored stuff) for PP CC. They include anger management, proper loading, unloading of both semi autos and revolvers, defensive stances and point shooting for center of mass, also included is point vs aim shooting, live fire at a range, center of mass practice and yes a discussion on could your really shoot someone. I like that cause if you couldn't, your weapon could easily end up being used against you. She has shot 22, 380, 38 spc, 40 s&w, and a 45. Likes the 380 best so that is why I am buying her a 380. Of her choice.

Fortunately there are a whole host of really great small 380s available today, more than at any other period in my lifetime.

From personal experience with several of the smaller pistols.

The easiest to maintain has been my Beretta Pico. Once I learned how to do take down and reassembly the next easiest has become my Remington RM380.

The most comfortable to shoot has been the Remington RM380 followed by the Sig P290RS.

Best standard sights are the Beretta Pico and Sig P20RS withe the S&W M&P BG380 very close.

Most reliable has been interesting. I'd rank the Remington RM380 and Sig P290RS at the very top. So far they have simply not had any issues at all.

The Pico does not like older Federal JHPs.
The S&W BG380 had a strange habit of dropping the slide when I would drop an empty magazine and has gone back to the Mothership for a Spa Day.
The Ruger LCP does not have second strike capabilities and does have an annoying double reset that has caused me to pull the trigger and get nothing.​

The Beretta Pico, S&W M&P Bg380, Ruger LCP and Remington RM380 were all right at or below $200.00 new from an authorized dealer. The Sig 290RS was about $100.00 more.

The Sig and Remington are the heaviest of the group at about 16oz max. That's still lighter than my snubbies. The Ruger LCP is the lightest of the group withe the Pico and Smith in the middle.

Of the group, the Sig and the Remington are by far the easiest to rack the slide and have the smoothest, crispest triggers. On all of the little pocket pistols the trigger is long with a long reset, but that is classic DA. All have true second strike capabilities except the Ruger LCP.

The Remington and the Beretta come standard with ambidextrous magazine releases.

The Smith can be ordered with a safety. The safety does work and I like that since at times I open carry. Having a safety adds just a slight margin should someone snatch my gun, a moment for me to transition to plan B. When carrying open or concealed OWB I also try to always use a holster with some form of retention.

All are 6+1 standard except the Sig. It came with two magazines, a 6+1 and a 7+1.
 
Your daughter shouldn't be alone when locking up a business and making the cash drop. I would look for a way for her to leave with the other employees and deposit the cash during the day.
 
You would have a hard time trying to tell me that the Pico is not at the top of most reliable. I have two. One has WELL over 2500 rounds of flawless shooting. I say 2500, because that is when I stopped counting a long time ago. (I shoot them at least once a week. The other has over 1500 rds. of the same flawless shooting. I have no idea how many rounds you have shot through yours. I have shot the Remington and the 290. The Pico and the Kahr are both very mild, and more so than the Remington, the heavier 290 was a nice shooter as well. The Pico has very little muzzle flip. Both the Pico and the Kahr feel about the same. I have ran both guns against the LCP's and no contest in recoil and muzzle flip. Both did significantly better.
I really do not understand why you are focused on a older rounds. Might just want to get rid of them and purchase some newer ammo.
Yes, the Sig has a lighter, more crisp trigger, but that is one reason I do not carry a Sig, I prefer double action for a Pocket gun.
And yes Pico has Double Strike capability which is a huge plus.[/B]
You did not mention that both the Kahr and the Pico are rated for Plus P ammo. And Yes, while there is no

Sammi rating for 380, there is Plus P ammo. And regardless these are hot ammo. I can attest to the fact that the Pico will handle these ammunition's quite well. I have ran a lot of hot loads through the gun. I WOULD never attempt to do this with my LCP or any Gun that is not rated for use by the manufacturer or any aluminum chassis pocket gun. Underwood and Lehigh are producing some serious 380 ammo right now and they rate a lot of them with plus p.
Yes, the Remington is easier to rack, however, the Pico and the Kahr will break in very nicely and about the same as the LCP. Also you will not have to worry about the Magazine falling out with the Pico or Kahr.
New future owners that want a pocket gun would do well to try out as many as possible. The Pico IMO is top notch and my choice, however it is not a gun for everyone. There is a learning curve, but invest some time with it and you will reap huge rewards. A tough little gun that is a very smooth delightful shooter. If you like a bigger gun, then the Sig with the lighter trigger may be your choice as well as a number of the 1911 styles out there.
Thank you for your review.
 
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Chettt, I like your idea of her not being alone and having one of her employees with her when she leaves. It should put a little damper on any robbery unless of course her employee sets it up. She could fix that by changing employees ever week. Thanks for the idea.
 
The P230 and P232 are beautiful guns. Because they are direct blow back it totally defeats the purpose of going down to the .380 for recoil reasons. They generate far more perceived recoil than any gun that heavy in .380...

Setting aside my legitimate concerns about the defensive power of .380, there is something to be said about doing it well. Those options from Sig are as reliable as they are pretty. Sadly, the above criticism is right. These are dense little guns but for all the recoil that soaks up, they're effectively starting with more. It's just been too many decades since something like that was an ideal balance for regular carry.

If you want a better option in this category, check out the MC-14. It's a modern "compact" .380 that borrows heavily from the Browning BDA and Beretta 84. As you'll see in this excellent video review, it can take some accessories from them as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ISQxWA7Tw
 
Cosmodragoon said:
The reason that people often choose .380 is that it can be had in fairly small guns. That's really it.

Some people choose .380 because small guns are chambered in that caliber, but there are many other reasons. Locked-breech .380s have very low recoil, which makes tiny guns manageable. Low recoil also allows faster shooting and better accuracy, particularly by people who practice infrequently.

Cosmodragoon said:
If you want a better option in this category, check out the MC-14. It's a modern "compact" .380 that borrows heavily from the Browning BDA and Beretta 84. As you'll see in this excellent video review, it can take some accessories from them as well.

I am not sure the Girsan MC14 is currently being imported since Zenith stopped importing that pistol line (9/21/2017 "Zenith sold all remaining inventory of its eliminated product lines, which include Tisas, Girsan, and Tedna, to Texas-based firearms wholesale liquidator CDNN Sports."). The Beretta Cheetahs (double-stack model 84 and single-stack model 85) are indeed fine pistols. More modern alternatives include the double-stack Sig P250 (sadly discontinued) and single-stack S&W M&P 380 Shield EZ.
 
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