Frank Ettin
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And we've had quite enough discussion of Inuit hunting practices. Back on topic please before posts start disappearing.
Is caliber really all that important for ccw
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Cascade1911
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.380 in the hand is worth two .45's in the safe.
Beyond that, shot placement being the same (I can shoot a .380 no better than a .45), the increased diameter, sectional density and energy of the .45 have got to increase your odds. Sure someone will argue that they've got this magic load for the .380 that has the energy of the .45 while expanding to the size of a dinner plate after penetrating ten inches but hey, you can get magic bullets for the .45 as well.
Once you get to the realm of 9mm, 40, 44, 357, 45 you getting more to an argument of velocity vs mass, capacity, reliable expansion etc. At this point you pays your money and takes your choice.
Beyond that, shot placement being the same (I can shoot a .380 no better than a .45), the increased diameter, sectional density and energy of the .45 have got to increase your odds. Sure someone will argue that they've got this magic load for the .380 that has the energy of the .45 while expanding to the size of a dinner plate after penetrating ten inches but hey, you can get magic bullets for the .45 as well.
Once you get to the realm of 9mm, 40, 44, 357, 45 you getting more to an argument of velocity vs mass, capacity, reliable expansion etc. At this point you pays your money and takes your choice.
matthew261
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The most important weapon in the self-defense arsenal is your brain. Educate yourself on tactics, don't underestimate the intelligence of your attacker, practice, practice, practice and whatever caliber you happen to be carrying, know its advantages and weaknesses based on YOUR real world testing (and did I say) practice. You can be carrying a 454 Casull but if you're unpracticed at using it and your attacker can plink your eye socket at 7 yds with a .22 short, you've been outgunned.
seeker_two
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Matthew261 has a valid point....caliber isn't as important as having the appropriate tactics.....you don't use the same tactics with a .25ACP (close-range, crainio-ocular target) as you use for a .45ACP (COM, distance allowed).....it's just as important to adapt your tactics to your gun as it is to adapt your gun to your tactics.....
Cascade1911
New member
If all you have while hunting is a .22 LR, yep, tactics are king. If you are planning to hunt white tail deer are you going to choose .22 lr ?
So, yes, tactics, training, outsmart, whatever, all good. But, at the end of it all.....
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The bigger the better as long as its not so hot that you 1) can't afford to train with it or 2) your more afraid to pull the trigger on it than get attacked by the assailant.
If you can be no less stupid with a .45 then with a .22, I'd say a .45 is better. If for some reason you can shoot a .22 and turn into an idiot as soon as a .45 is placed into your hand...by all means, stick with the .22 lr.
So, yes, tactics, training, outsmart, whatever, all good. But, at the end of it all.....
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The bigger the better as long as its not so hot that you 1) can't afford to train with it or 2) your more afraid to pull the trigger on it than get attacked by the assailant.
If you can be no less stupid with a .45 then with a .22, I'd say a .45 is better. If for some reason you can shoot a .22 and turn into an idiot as soon as a .45 is placed into your hand...by all means, stick with the .22 lr.
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Calibers for CCW is a tough call (and this is from an LEO point of view) as
the weapon usually has to be fairly compact so as to not be detected to the untrained eye. In small to medium size towns with low crime rates, I would say that the normal, compact snubbies and small caliber semi-autos are adequate for CCW. However, that being said, if you live in a large city with a high violent crime rate and your profession requires you to spend a lot of time in a high-risk area where many of the robberies and assaults are with a firearm, then you really should consider concealing a full size weapon of at least .40 caliber. The problem with .32, .38, .380/9mm weapons is not that they don't work, they do, but if you are being assaulted by someone with a firearm and you instinctively double tap them to "center mass" as you have been trained with these small caliber weapons, you are probably going to be shot as well before your attacker collapses. With a more potent caliber with a full-length barrel, the odds are significantly higher of delivering enough shock on a "double tap" to center mass to prevent accurate return fire.
the weapon usually has to be fairly compact so as to not be detected to the untrained eye. In small to medium size towns with low crime rates, I would say that the normal, compact snubbies and small caliber semi-autos are adequate for CCW. However, that being said, if you live in a large city with a high violent crime rate and your profession requires you to spend a lot of time in a high-risk area where many of the robberies and assaults are with a firearm, then you really should consider concealing a full size weapon of at least .40 caliber. The problem with .32, .38, .380/9mm weapons is not that they don't work, they do, but if you are being assaulted by someone with a firearm and you instinctively double tap them to "center mass" as you have been trained with these small caliber weapons, you are probably going to be shot as well before your attacker collapses. With a more potent caliber with a full-length barrel, the odds are significantly higher of delivering enough shock on a "double tap" to center mass to prevent accurate return fire.
Spats McGee
Administrator
I can see the area of my domicile making a difference in how often I carry, but I don't see the connection between "small town/big town" and "caliber choice." Bad guys aren't actually any larger in the big city. A weapon & caliber sufficient for Bubba Backwoods ought to work on Donny Downtown. Or did I miss something here?lincoln5 said:
matthew261
New member
It's all relative
In 2007 Kenneth Shipp, after being involved in a traffic incident, drew and fired a .22 magnum North American Arms SA revolver into the face of Officer Eric Freeman. Sadly, Officer Freeman died of the wound shortly thereafter. Conversely, Officer Massad Ayoob (and famed ballistics and defensive shooting expert) fired five .38 special rounds point blank into the face of a perp...and he lived.
Does caliber matter? In most instances, 'yes', in others, not so much. Ultimately I believe that caliber matters. I carry a .357 magnum most (99% of the time), a .45 ACP .5% of the time and a .22 magnum the other .5% of the time (don't ask, just know that's what's required). I believe that a .357 magnum is the most effective round for stopping a human attack...therefore I carry it most often. On the very rare occasion that I think I'll need more firepower, I carry my full size HK45. On the occasions that I absolutely cannot carry anything more, I carry my mouse gun (which I load with 45 gr. Critical Defense loads from Hornady and would not hesitate in sticking in in the eye of an aggresor).
Caliber is important, but shot placement is paramount. Carry, practice and use that with which you are most comfortable and contribute to the NRA.
In 2007 Kenneth Shipp, after being involved in a traffic incident, drew and fired a .22 magnum North American Arms SA revolver into the face of Officer Eric Freeman. Sadly, Officer Freeman died of the wound shortly thereafter. Conversely, Officer Massad Ayoob (and famed ballistics and defensive shooting expert) fired five .38 special rounds point blank into the face of a perp...and he lived.
Does caliber matter? In most instances, 'yes', in others, not so much. Ultimately I believe that caliber matters. I carry a .357 magnum most (99% of the time), a .45 ACP .5% of the time and a .22 magnum the other .5% of the time (don't ask, just know that's what's required). I believe that a .357 magnum is the most effective round for stopping a human attack...therefore I carry it most often. On the very rare occasion that I think I'll need more firepower, I carry my full size HK45. On the occasions that I absolutely cannot carry anything more, I carry my mouse gun (which I load with 45 gr. Critical Defense loads from Hornady and would not hesitate in sticking in in the eye of an aggresor).
Caliber is important, but shot placement is paramount. Carry, practice and use that with which you are most comfortable and contribute to the NRA.
Look, somebody will always have a success story with your pet caliber, even a bb gin, blow gun or 22lr.
It can also be argued that 5.7, 380, 9mm and other small calibers are good SD calibers, multiple test results and actual shootings show calibers larger in size which normally expand and still penetrate 14" are the best for self defense. When plugged with clothing, I would still rather be making 45 holes vs 22 holes. 14" gets you through even with a light barrier. Hunters know exit wounds bleed out, so you have to get through. In addition, the spine is in a human's back, covered with bone.
So 40+ sized calibers which can be shot fast are best for sd.
If completely impractical, I like things which will penetrate and shoot fast for caliber like 357 mag or 38+P. These should keep the 14" penetration and be more likely to expand due to high velocity for caliber.
Last, if you need to hide it in a speedo, lesser calibers in fmj should at least penetrate to the spine and give an exit wound like 32 ACP or 380.
This is why I struggle with 9mm. Then bullets need to expand to stop, but they often penetrate less when they do. The gun is usually as big as a 40. The only good thing is 9 is easy to shoot fast and the ammo is much cheaper.
The 22 has cheap ammo and is ideal if attacked by prairie dogs or other rodents and snake. A good utility gun and the ammo is light. Hiking, I would be tempted to carry a 45 for sd and a 22 with lots of ammo for fun, snakes, survival, etc.
It can also be argued that 5.7, 380, 9mm and other small calibers are good SD calibers, multiple test results and actual shootings show calibers larger in size which normally expand and still penetrate 14" are the best for self defense. When plugged with clothing, I would still rather be making 45 holes vs 22 holes. 14" gets you through even with a light barrier. Hunters know exit wounds bleed out, so you have to get through. In addition, the spine is in a human's back, covered with bone.
So 40+ sized calibers which can be shot fast are best for sd.
If completely impractical, I like things which will penetrate and shoot fast for caliber like 357 mag or 38+P. These should keep the 14" penetration and be more likely to expand due to high velocity for caliber.
Last, if you need to hide it in a speedo, lesser calibers in fmj should at least penetrate to the spine and give an exit wound like 32 ACP or 380.
This is why I struggle with 9mm. Then bullets need to expand to stop, but they often penetrate less when they do. The gun is usually as big as a 40. The only good thing is 9 is easy to shoot fast and the ammo is much cheaper.
The 22 has cheap ammo and is ideal if attacked by prairie dogs or other rodents and snake. A good utility gun and the ammo is light. Hiking, I would be tempted to carry a 45 for sd and a 22 with lots of ammo for fun, snakes, survival, etc.
I think some of you are somehow missing the point of my post.
The point is, if you don't live in a big city, high-crime, "Little Beirut" type of
area, do you really want to carry a 40 oz. weapon concealed everyday? My first suggestion of course, would be to move. In small town USA where there is little crime and what rare problems you do encounter are not likely to possess a firearm, then the typical .38 snubbie, small semi-auto CCW weapon that is easy to carry and conceal daily is certainly adequate.
The point is, if you don't live in a big city, high-crime, "Little Beirut" type of
area, do you really want to carry a 40 oz. weapon concealed everyday? My first suggestion of course, would be to move. In small town USA where there is little crime and what rare problems you do encounter are not likely to possess a firearm, then the typical .38 snubbie, small semi-auto CCW weapon that is easy to carry and conceal daily is certainly adequate.
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Frank Ettin
Administrator
If that's really your point, I think your reasoning is specious.lincoln5 said:
Yes, a private citizen, especially if he can avoid "high crime" areas, is very unlikely to need his gun. But the likelihood that he might need his gun is independent of the nature of the threat he might need his gun to defend against.
So while he might never need his gun, it's still possible that if he does he will need to deal with a strong, determined adversary who is under the influence of drugs and who will be difficult to stop.
Rifleman 173
New member
I've learned over the years that shot placement and multiple hits on target are more important than caliber or millimeter size. You hit a guy square in the head a couple of times with a .22 long rifle and you're probably going the win the day. If you do 2 to the chest and 1 or 2 to the head, that will probably make you a winner too. I do, however, personally prefer using the larger and heavier bullets when I can, but if I can't, I do multiple shots and go for good shot placement.
Officer Reston took a .45 to the chin from assailant Joel Abner and the shot caused Reston to go down, the assailant fired a few more rounds at his chest and thinking the officer dead began walking away, Reston sat up, drew his sidearm and the two exchanged fire. Reston's protective vest stopped the rounds fired at his chest. Reston was struck two more times - one in the arm and once in the hip / buttocks. The conflict ended when Reston grappled Abner and fired 2 point blank shots into his head.
So anyway, there is an example of someone getting shot with a .45, in the chin, and he continues to fight and eventually prevails.
Things may have been very different if Abner had been using hollow point ammo... the FMJ bullet that stuck Reston punched a very neat hole in his chin, traveled down his neck and exited out the back of his neck. It broke his jaw but that's about it, meaning the path of the bullet was a fairly clean path.
So anyway, there is an example of someone getting shot with a .45, in the chin, and he continues to fight and eventually prevails.
Things may have been very different if Abner had been using hollow point ammo... the FMJ bullet that stuck Reston punched a very neat hole in his chin, traveled down his neck and exited out the back of his neck. It broke his jaw but that's about it, meaning the path of the bullet was a fairly clean path.
Spats McGee
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Oh, I get the point, but I have some reservations about the reasoning. Of course, leave it to fiddletown to reduce to one sentence, that which takes me all day to articulate:lincoln5 said:
The odds of having to shoot go up in a high crime area. The ballistics don't change, though.fiddletown said:
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