Is caliber really all that important for ccw

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"Happy" in this context is a relative term
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Yes and it's quite contengent. Your going to have to survive in order to have any happiness. Using a larger caliber doesn't guarentee survival so there is no guarentee that you'll be any happier by using a larger caliber.
Of course I can't imagine getting through and wondering if you could have got by with less gun:rolleyes:
 
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LawScholar: Myself, I created a "carry window".

.380 Automatic
9x18 Makarov
.38 Special
9x19 Parabellum/9mm Luger
.40 Smith & Wesson
.45 Automatic Colt Pistol

I don't know why I typed them all out. Sometimes they seem kinda cool that way. I'm a geek.

Anyway, anything smaller or larger than that (very rough) window I'm not interested in carrying concealed. Those rounds, to me, represent the bare minimum defensive round against a human target (.380) to the maximum I can shoot comfortably in a concealable
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I notice you did not include the 44 Spl. I carry a Charter Arms 44 Spl Bulldog 3" as primary, a S&W 38 Spl as backup, and do not always carry a S&W 625 4" Long Colt 45. I have confidence in the stopping power of a 44 Spl as the Bulldog is very close to the size of a J Frame and comfortable to carry.
 
After my cousin was shot 4 times with a 357 I must say shot placement is king. Dont matter what you shoot him with unless its a 20mm or larger, that if you dont hit the important parts he will not just lay down and die.

Same goes with hunting..... why wouldnt it go with SD?
 
There are four ways in which shooting an assailant actually can stop a fight:

psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
massive blood loss depriving the muscles and brain of oxygen and thus significantly impairing their ability to function
breaking major skeletal support structures
damaging the central nervous system.


@Fiddletown. Loved your post. I think you hit it on the head.
 
just improves your chances some
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it might, maybe, but even then only some of the time.
And are you sure it does. Even if you destroy the heart and lungs you have 15-30 seconds that Mr BG can return fire, so who is better off the guy who thinks I'm carrying a XX uber magnum and emptys all 25 rounds COM only to have Mr BG drill him in the head with his 10th shot or the guy who realizes all handguns suck and after the first two rounds don't have the desired effect puts the 3rd 32acp right between mr BG's eyes ending his aggression
 
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It makes no difference at all. That is why so many Alaskana carry a .22lr for bear defence. Yes it does make a difference. the bigger the hole the faster they go down.
 
It makes no difference at all. That is why so many Alaskana carry a .22lr for bear defence. Yes it does make a difference. the bigger the hole the faster they go down.
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As a survival gun, yes --for small game. Easily stored in a small airplane along with a good supply of ammo. If you think Alaskans carry a .22 for bear defense, I like to contact you about selling some moon rock that fell in my boat while fishing for tarpon at Lake Iliamna, AK; (ok, I probably spelled it wrong). :p;)
 
mavracer said:
...just improves your chances some ...
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it might, maybe, but even then only some of the time.
And are you sure it does. Even if you destroy the heart and lungs you have 15-30 seconds that Mr BG can return fire, so who is better off the guy who thinks I'm carrying a XX uber magnum and emptys all 25 rounds COM only to have Mr BG drill him in the head with his 10th shot or the guy who realizes all handguns suck and after the first two rounds don't have the desired effect puts the 3rd 32acp right between mr BG's eyes ending his aggression
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Now you're being intellectually dishonest. You've quoted me out of context and changed the parameters. What I wrote was (emphasis added):
Nope, just improves your chances some, if you can manage it and all other things being equal.
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Does caliber matter?

If you were hiking in grizzly bear country, would you take just a 22lr revolver with you? I know I wouldn't.

Now, of course humans aren't grizzly bears so you don't need to carry a 454 Casull or larger to stop a bad character. But, since the only reliable method of stopping someone (or any other living creature) that is actively trying to kill you, is the rapid loss of blood to the brain, I would think you would want to carry a caliber that produces ammunition known for its reliable expansion and penetration. Years and years of encounters have shown that something in .38 special/9mm and larger (40, 41, 10mm, 44, 45), designed to pentrate and expand, are a viable option for handgun defense against humans. That is not to say that the .32 calibers and the .380 variations are completely without merit. Since these two tend to be made in pistols known for their excellent portability, I would say they are at least a decent choice as compared to the 22lr and .25acp.

To me, caliber matters but there are other variables that need to be considered. However, I would think that one would try to maximize caliber taking into consideration the totality of personal needs.
 
MTT TL said:
Depends upon what you mean by this:
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Intermediate round, it's built a bit more like a rifle round yet still available in a pistol platform. It's purpose is defense, but it's a small caliber.

So does the higher velocity substitute for mass with .45 versus 5.7MM, all else being equal?
 
Now you're being intellectually dishonest.
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Are you sure you want to make that argument.
Nope, just improves your chances some, if you can manage it and all other things being equal.
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since all other things can not be equal, there is no way to quantify your chances of improvement. your statement is pretty dang dishonest intellectually. If your statement was honest there'd be a formula to calculate stopping power by now and there'd be a universal concensus for all the 9mm vs 40 vs 45 vs 357 vs 10mm.
and here I'll fix it so I dont change any of your parameters.
And are you sure it does. Even if you destroy the heart and lungs you have 15-30 seconds that Mr BG can return fire, so who is better off the guy who's carrying a XX uber magnum shoot COM breaks a rib and destroys heart and lungs only to have Mr BG drill him in the head seconds later or the guy carrys a 32acp shoots COM deflects off the rib and hits ths spine between 3rd and 4th vertabre ending his aggression
 
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I think it is, but not as all-fired important as many make it out to be. Personally, I see 380 as the minimum for me. And if I ever needed a handgun in a critical situation, I'm sure I be wishing I had a 357mag or 45acp.

That said, I also think that a good marskman with a 22 pocket pistol could be effective in 95+% of the situations an ordinary citizen would face.
 
So does the higher velocity substitute for mass with .45 versus 5.7MM, all else being equal?
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It is supposed to. Whether it does or not is a matter of opinion as it is not easily quantifiable. I would feel pretty confident with a pistol in 5.7.
 
mavracer said:
fiddletown said:
Now you're being intellectually dishonest....
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Are you sure you want to make that argument.
fiddletown said:
Nope, just improves your chances some, if you can manage it and all other things being equal.
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since all other things can not be equal, there is no way to quantify your chances of improvement. your statement is intelectually dishonest. If your statement was honest there'd be a formula to calculate stopping power by now and there'd be a universal concensus for all the 9mm vs 40 vs 45 vs 357 vs 10mm.
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It doesn't mean that at all. It simply means that given similar shot placement and the same number of rounds, something like a .45 ACP will have an edge in terminal performance over something like, say, a .32 S&W.

As for universal consensus, all law enforcement agencies pretty much authorize 9x19, .40 S&W and/or .45 ACP for duty use. I'm not aware of any issuing officers .22 lr for their pistols. The thing is that 9x19, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum and 10mm (and other comparable cartridges) are all reasonable choices for general self defense applications, at least with well designed JHP bullets. Most of the debate about which is best is probably found on Internet gun forums.

Other cartridges may be decent choices for special applications. Some lower powered cartridges may be useful when a smaller gun is needed for deep concealment or for someone particularly sensitive to recoil. More powerful cartridges probably aren't very useful for self defense (except for some animal defense), because the terminal ballistic - controllability trade off is too disadvantageous.

mavracer said:
...who is better off the guy who's carrying a XX uber magnum shoot COM breaks a rib and destroys heart and lungs only to have Mr BG drill him in the head seconds later or the guy carrys a 32acp shoots COM deflects off the rib and hits ths spine between 3rd and 4th vertabre ending his aggression...
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And of course, when arguing on the bases of hypotheticals, it's always possible to construct a hypothetical that supports your position. That doesn't make the hypothetical, or your position, meaningful.
 
I'm not aware of any issuing officers .22 lr for their pistols.
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As our Irish friend pointed out the Ulster Guards were issued .22s. The decision was almost entirely political though. Short of that I know of none.
 
It simply means that given similar shot placement and the same number of rounds, something like a .45 ACP will have an edge in terminal performance over something like, say, a .32 S&W.
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Since it's quite concevable for a instantly incapisation cns shot with the 32 S&W there maybe no edge in terminal performance for a 45. therefore your statement is false however were you to say a .45 ACP most definitly might have an edge in terminal performance over something like, say, a .32 S&W then that would be a correct statement.
As for universal consensus, all law enforcement agencies pretty much authorize 9x19, .40 S&W and/or .45 ACP for duty use. I'm not aware of any issuing officers .22 lr for their pistols. The thing is that 9x19, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum and 10mm (and other comparable cartridges) are all reasonable choices for general self defense applications, at least with well designed JHP bullets. Most of the debate about which is best is probably found on Internet gun forums.
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now your gonna tell me that the 45 is better than a 32 but a 10mm is no better 9mm? are you serious? And is there a concensus on JHP vs FMJ in 45 yet?
 
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