Is caliber really all that important for ccw

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Sure it is, for several reasons.

1. Terminal performance varies from caliber to caliber, especially if one considers the entire spectrum of calibers (.22Short up to the magnums) used for carry.
2. Caliber selection affects capacity for a given size carry gun.
3. Caliber selection affects shootability.
4. Caliber selection affects practice costs.
 
The only thing that matters in a gun fight surviving.

You survive by will, hitting the target and putting it on the ground.

A miss with a 76 cal supermag exploding elephant stopper is a lot less effective than multiple hits with a 22 lr.

If you can't hit your target because you can't accurately shoot the Major caliber your carrying, then you need to get a different pistol or practice a lot more. But it is to late to discover this fact when the fight is on.
 
Drugs and/or adrenalin are missing from your argument. A person amped up on killing or robbing you most likely won't take no from a 22 or 25. I would rather carry OC.

40 S&W and 45 ACP are proven stoppers in testing and street statistics.
 
Of course caliber matters. Within the range of effective choices the differences start to get less important, but caliber certainly matters.
 
I don't view the issue as "Is caliber really all that important for ccw". The laws of physics don't take a holiday for "ccw" and projectiles don't act differently in the human body because it's a ccw situation.

I think the FBI did the best job possible at the time of finding a way of modeling handgun ballistics and wounding through various barriers.

The FBI certainly has shown a willingness to switch caliber and sidearm if the field experience of their agents doesn't verify predicted results from testing.

So anyway, I do put stock in the FBI tests. And I do think caliber is important in any situation where you're defending yourself with a firearm.
 
As an aside, of course ballistic testing is important. Without it, we would not have the reliably expanding projectiles we have today.

For those who don't subscribe to ballistic testing; how do you propose that bullet penetration and expansion be tested?

There is a great body of scientific work on bullet performance and it has been absolutely proven, that the aggregate penetration and expansion between bare ballistic gelatin and gelatin covered by 4-layers of denim, closely mimics actual living tissue shooting results.

Why Four Layers of Denim Cloth?

Go to Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition web site, you will find that they use the FBI and IWBA test protocol. Through that testing they were able to develop their outstanding Ranger-T line.

Science is our friend.
 
+1 Nate

That doesn't mean that a round that doesn't make the ideal FBI numbers can't kill or disable you but it does give us a way to compare ammunition.
 
Since the vast majority of stops will be of the psycological type these are far more dependant on Mr BGs mindset than caliber.
Caliber matters little.
The BGs that are not so inclined to stop and must be stopped physoligacly place all handguns securly in the iffy at best catagory.
Caliber matters a little more but still well below shot placement.
 
I can say that their has been alot of thought put into these responses and I can see how in some cercumstances bigger is going to be better, for the person that is hell bent on attacking you and amped on drugs. I guess I just figured, that for the most part, when an attacker gets hit, they would most likely be more worried about their own health and seeking safety rather than keep coming after you. I am also happy to see this thread didn't get carried away as it easily could have. Very interesting and informative to see how everyone views this question:D
 
If they did for some chance keep walking after getting hit, a follow up shot should surely slow them down no matter the caliber. If stopping the person from coming at you is the goal, then I think in most casses, the caliber probably does not matter. There will always be an exception to the rule but For the most part that is how I see it.
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Apparently, after ZILLIONS of threads and discussions on the subject, as well as accurate technical data involving real shootings, you have, without reading any of them, created your own theory and expressed such wisdom as "a follow up shot should surely slow them down no matter what the caliber."

A couple of points:

1. A person with a gun doesn't have to come at you. This may come as a shock, but he can actually kill you from a distance.

2. A substantial number of people who have been shot, don't know it at the time. A fatally shot person may still kill you, since adrenaline is a powerful drug in it's own right and both good guys and bad have continued to fight after receiving serious, or even fatal, wounds.

3. Using normal thinking to judge the actions, or reaction to being shot, of a doped up criminal whose thinking is anything but normal, might be a mistake.

Something else to think about, is that the criminal mind set would more likely be to "come at you" before you knew what was happening, and long before you had a chance to draw your gun.
 
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mavracer said:
Since the vast majority of stops will be of the psycological type these are far more dependant on Mr BGs mindset than caliber.
Caliber matters little.
The BGs that are not so inclined to stop and must be stopped physoligacly place all handguns securly in the iffy at best catagory.
Caliber matters a little more but still well below shot placement.
Click to expand...
Except you don't get to choose your BG ahead of time. Maybe the guy who will attack you next week will be particularly sensitive to bullet wounds, but I sure wouldn't count on it. So the better prepared you are to stop him, no matter what his disposition, the happier you'll be with the outcome.
 
Originally Posted by mavracer
Since the vast majority of stops will be of the psycological type these are far more dependant on Mr BGs mindset than caliber.
Caliber matters little.
The BGs that are not so inclined to stop and must be stopped physoligacly place all handguns securly in the iffy at best catagory.
Caliber matters a little more but still well below shot placement.
Click to expand...

This ignores advances in bullet technology that have shown better results on the streets in actual shootings.

I believe it's incorrect to suggest that caliber and bullet design always take a back seat to the mind set of the criminal when bullets are placed with reasonable accuracy. Lesser calibers and inferior bullet designs require surgical accuracy.
 
The scary parts is that a human being can kill you before he dies from all the bullets you put in him.

For that reason,you need to shoot calibers of large enough size to at least let him know he's being shot.

You are talking about an encounter with another human being determined to do you harm and he's closing distance on you in likely no more then two seconds.

In that distance,you might get two or three rounds off before he's on you.

This is someone with a knife or a club or just his hands,wacked out -angry as hell.

A person with a handgun is another matter altogehter as you will face exactly what you are trying to defend yourself with.

A person of unknown training using a gun against you of unknown caliber who is trying to kill you-presumably to rob you or who knows-mayber today was the day this guy's -had it with the world day-and you 'unlucked' into his perimeter.

The only thing that will stop your assailant is the ballistic damage you do to him before he can harm you.

If that damage is not sufficient to make him consciously stop his attack-you need to create enough physical damage in his body so he cannot continue his attack.

And human fat acts as a great destabilizer of weak calibers ballisitic performance so the bigger and nastier the bad guy the more ballistic performance you will need to make any change in the bad guys trajectory towards YOU.

You might only have two seconds to do all that.

You want a 22 lr to defend yourself now?
 
So the better prepared you are to stop him, no matter what his disposition, the happier you'll be with the outcome.
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There's a better than fair chance that you won't be "happy" with the outcome no matter what your packing.
I believe it's incorrect to suggest that caliber and bullet design always take a back seat to the mind set of the criminal when bullets are placed with reasonable accuracy. Lesser calibers and inferior bullet designs require surgical accuracy.
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I'm sorry but I've seen too much game run off with solid hits from a high powered rifle to beleve that any service handgun is not going to require surgical accuracy for a real physicological stop.
 
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357 mag and up are my criteria. To answer your question yes it is that important to me. I'm happy to make suggestions to people but I won't tell anyone what or if they carry and I won't let anyone tell me what's best for me to carry. If you have something you are capable and competent enough to deploy it then you're in the right ball park...
 
Personally i would not carry anything smaller than 9mm. Always carry the biggest caliber you can carry and shoot well. Remember "carrying a handgun is supposed to be comforting not comfortable"
 
For me, it goes in order of:

  1. How the weapon will be carried
  2. Size of the weapon, determined by how it will be carried.
  3. Caliber of the weapon, to fit the size needed, and to determine 4
  4. Capacity of the weapon. Maximum allowed by size and caliber.

I find it's important in selecting the firearm, yes. Plenty of people have been killed with smaller calibers, plenty have been killed by larger calibers. I'm going to determine what caliber by the size of the gun, a .45 with a smaller grip will be harder to shoot for me. Would I prefer a full size .45? Sure, but all else taken into account it's not going to be possible.

As for "stopping power", any bullet will do something, as long as you hit, and hit well. I'm going to be more worried about the situation, and my ability to draw, than the bullet size. More importantly, do you really think he's going to know?
 
Nathan.
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40 S&W and 45 ACP are proven stoppers in testing and street statistics.

What and where are the statistics showing that. ?
 
The army issued a .22 pistol here for personal protection. They must of tought it would be effective. I think if you want to stop someone consistently without perfect shots you need a rifle.
 
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