Is Big Bullet Technology Dead?

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Just one shot.

Thing is Handguns are not a weapon of choice when you know there will be a fight.

So they get used because you didn't bring a rifle or shotgun.

Thing is you are unlikely to unload the entire magazine. More likely you will get one to three shots off.

This makes a Magnum revolver round sort of a better choice?

For YEARS I carried a S&W .41 Magnum snub nose, and It had full power magnum loads in it always.

If I get just one shot bigger is better. Or is that wrong?
 
but the light and fast moving 9mm still penetrates deeper that the others with a comparable or equal load.

MAYBE...

The big problem with statements like this is that while the rounds best performance is very good, the statement doesn't allow for what happens often in the real world, where each round may not deliver its best performance.

Not all that long ago, NYC police shot a fellow with their 9mms, they got something like 7 hits, and 4 of the rounds were stopped by the heavy Carhartt coat the guy was wearing. Or so it was reported. The point it that while the round (a well known tested and approved one) shouldn't have done that, it did. There are no guarantees.


Handguns have minimal-to-no utility for military applications. Tremendous technological improvements in battle rifles have made handguns just about obsolete. When the Garand was king of battle fields, the 1911-A1 was an essential complement, especially in jungles of Pacific islands. It took too long to reload 8 '06 rounds in a Garand, which left American soldiers vulnerable to Japanese suicide attacks. Now a soldier can reload 30 more rounds in his battle rifle in less time than it would take him to bring a handgun to battery.

I'm afraid I just have to take some of these statements to task.
Handguns have minimal-to-no utility for military applications.

IF you exclude personal self defense of the individual solder as a military application, I could agree. Otherwise, no. Certainly a handgun isn't the best choice for many things, but there is more in war than fire and maneuver infantry combat, or stopping a human wave attack.

It's been said, and I agree, that "a handgun won't win a battle, but it could save the life of the guy who does win the battle".

From personal experience I will say that I would feel much better with a handgun (and about any handgun) with me, inside my sleeping bag, than an M16. No, the military doesn't put a high priority on the handgun, but it also doesn't put the highest priority on the lives of individual troops. Mission is their priority.

Tremendous technological improvements in battle rifles have made handguns just about obsolete.

Again, same thing, handguns are a personal weapon. Defense of the individual in situations where the rifle is not able to be used.

It took too long to reload 8 '06 rounds in a Garand, which left American soldiers vulnerable to Japanese suicide attacks

Really? How long do you think it takes?? The 8 round enbloc clip goes into the rifle pretty fast, about as fast as any magazine fed weapon, and faster than some (want bet you can slam 8 rounds into a Garand faster than you can get a 20 or 30 round stick into a tommygun?) The Enbloc doesn't give up any speed to a 5 rnd stripper clip used in a Mauser or Arisaka. In most hands, its faster.

Now a soldier can reload 30 more rounds in his battle rifle in less time than it would take him to bring a handgun to battery.

Not sure I can agree with this. Starting at the same place, gun in your hands, empty, action open, it takes the same exact actions to bring the piece into action, insert magazine and close the action.
 
Regardless of technology and bullet design the 9mm is going to continue to increase in market share. I can't even count the number of advantages that the 9mm as a combined weapon system provides compared to the 1911 and other 45 based systems. The revolver will probably never recover any of its lost share, either.

The greatest uses for guns now are military or police operations, hobby shooting, and personal defense. The reality of the situation is that the .45 does not provide any advantage.

The simple to understand fact is this. A .45 has absolutely no advantage until you pull the trigger, and even in that very unlikely situation, it's not at all likely that it will perform significantly better than the 9mm.

Usually, you should not accept the will of the masses as evidence, but it's very clear that the overwhelming majority of the entire population of the world rejects the argument that the .45 is the smart thing to use as a combat pistol.
 
Regardless of technology and bullet design the 9mm is going to continue to increase in market share. I can't even count the number of advantages that the 9mm as a combined weapon system provides compared to the 1911 and other 45 based systems. The revolver will probably never recover any of its lost share, either.

As far as I can tell, the biggest advantages are cost related.

"Ammo is cheaper, less wear on the guns, people can deal with recoil better."

Concerning recoil, that is a training issue. You can be trained to handle recoil, again relates to cost.

As far as stopping power goes the FBI said, "forget it, doesn't exist from handguns."

As far as capacity goes, the FBI said, "we tend to miss 70-80% of the time." LOL, good thing the 9mm ammo is cheaper

As far as penetration goes the FBI said, "falls within excepted range."


This is a big huge government agency. There have budgets, training programs, standards to conform too.

I understand why they chose 9mm, and for them it probably makes a ton of sense. However, the reasoning behind their choosing 9mm is hardly a substantiated argument for, "9mm is the best bullet ever.:"
 
Two caveats: (1) I went to law school because I can't do math. (2) It's been a while since I read any of the studies on ballistics.

With those said, and generally speaking, I think that bigger bullets make bigger holes. Smaller bullets let me make more holes without reloading. If I'm ever (God forbid) in a gunfight, I'll do my damnedest not to miss. I cannot count on that, though. I also know that it's cheaper to practice with smaller bullets. Thus, I have elected to go with "more smaller bullets" over "fewer larger bullets."

As far as the FBI, I find their tests useful, when I get time to read them. I haven't read the latest ones yet. The FBI (and the federal gov't generally) has a much larger ammo testing budget than I do, so I turn to them for information. Not necessarily for guidance, but for information. Government acquisitions are done by committee, the result of a long, tedious process of requests for qualifications, testing, bidding, and finally, selection. I don't have to worry about the added cost of maintaining 23,000* firearms chambered in .45 acp over the baseline cost of maintaining those same firearms chambered in 9mm. I do have to worry about the cost of ammo going through two 9mm firearms. IOW, I like the fact that the FBI tests ammo and that I get to read the results. I also know that my considerations may lead to a different result in the Spats McGee Firearms Acquisition Process.

* = I pulled this number out of thin air, so let's not argue about its accuracy.
 
Concerning recoil, that is a training issue. You can be trained to handle recoil, again relates to cost.
Not really. It is not a matter of whether one can "handle" recoil.

Iy isa matter of the moment of the firearm, which is governed by the laws of physics, and the time it takes to get back on target for subsequent shots.

Yes, training and practice can help, as they can in evetything else--grip, sight picture, trigger control, and so forth--but they cannot negate the laws of physics...specifically, Newton's Third Law of Motion.

The velocity and mass of the bullet and other ejecta result in the movement of the gun, unless it is in a machine rest, and the mass of the gun, along with the bore axis and the grip angle, determine how.

This is a big huge government agency. There have budgets, training programs, standards to conform too. ...I understand why they chose 9mm, and for them it probably makes a ton of sense.
The FBI didn't "choose" the 9mm solely for themselves. They recommended it for their law enforcement partners.

There are fewer than 14,000 FBI Special Agents; those are the ones who carry weapons as part of their jobs.

There are around 765,000 full time sworn officers in police departments in the US; those are the ones with arrest powers. That's 55 times the number of FBI Special Agents.

There are also Treasury and Border Patrol agents.

There are thought to be around 15,000,000 concealed carriers in the US. That's 20 times the number of sworn officers.

FBI Special Agents are not major users of handguns or handgun ammunition in this country, but the FBI Training Division has been providing all kinds of support, including research and testing, to the much wider law enforcement community for decades. If I were a police chief or commissioner, I would certainly take advantage of that.

Two interesting tid-biits from Tom Givens: civilian use of force encounters tend to have a lot more in common with those involving FBI Special Agents (and treasury agents) than with those of sworn police officers: and (2) the marked differences between the duties of sworn officers and the responsibilities, and those differences greatly influence the nature or armed encounters experienced.
 
44AMP,


Are you telling me that an M-1 Garand can be reloaded more quickly than a H&K 416?

A GI could go through an entire H&K 416 mag before a GI could get an M-1 clip out of a belt pouch preparatory to inserting it very carefully into a Garand.

I'm good with what you want to believe.
 
I can't even count the number of advantages that the 9mm as a combined weapon system provides...

This seem to be where we always wind up. Questions about CARTRIDGE performance, or bullet performance get asked, and we wind up getting beat about the head and shoulders with people telling us how good the 9mm weapons system is.

Lets take a moment and level the playing field, so we concentrate JUST on cartridge & bullet performance. (and yes, I do realize that is not what happens in the real world)

Here's your weapon, a T/C Contender, and two barrels of the same length, one in 9mm Luger, the other in .45ACP. Which do you choose, and why???

OR, any other caliber barrel, and why? I'm willing to bet that many if not most people won't choose the 9mm over everything else, in that scenario.

You only get ONE shot. So all the pros and cons about capacity, and recoil management are irrelevant. Only the performance of the cartridge counts. Do you still choose the 9mm as the "best"?

next point..
Usually, you should not accept the will of the masses as evidence, but it's very clear that the overwhelming majority of the entire population of the world rejects the argument that the .45 is the smart thing to use as a combat pistol.

Yes, the rest of the world uses 9mm overwhelmingly. But that means what, exactly?? That they think the .45 isn't good enough?? I rather doubt it's quite that simple. Cost, and tradition play a big part, I think. Tradition, in the sense that if what you use works reasonably well for you, you tend to stick with it, particularly when you factor in the cost of changing to a different caliber.

From its earliest days (1902) the 9mm Luger was marketed to the world. And, rather effectively. Both the Luger pistol and the round. MANY countries bought them, and that established the 9mm Luger round as a baseline standard.

Our .45ACP (1911) never was marketed to the world, in the same way. Not even close. I think that's more than a small part of it. Countries don't change what they have that works well enough, unless the advantage of the change clearly outweighs the cost or they believe it does. (look up why the M1 Garand was .30-06, ;))

Last point (for now ;))
9mm is cheaper.

Yep, most of the time, but not always. I just checked over at Midway, since, being a handloader, the price of factory ammo isn't on the tip of my tongue...

It was ..interesting. The cheapest stuff, in both calibers, 9mm is much cheaper, running aound $0.25-27 per round, on sale. FMJ. .45ACP FMJ was $0.38-40 per round. 9mm clearly wins for being cheaper.

BUT, when you take a look at the high performance rounds, the JHPs that are the reason the 9mm is now so effective and well regarded, and its a different story.

In BOTH 9mm and .45acp high end JHP ammo costs in the $0.80-1.20 range, per round! Simply put, ball ammo 9mm costs much less than ball ammo .45, but good JHP ammo in both calibers costs about the SAME!!!

(At least if you buy it from Midway, :rolleyes::D)
 
44AMP,


Are you telling me that an M-1 Garand can be reloaded more quickly than a H&K 416?

A GI could go through an entire H&K 416 mag before a GI could get an M-1 clip out of a belt pouch preparatory to inserting it very carefully into a Garand.


I don't have any personal experience with the HK 416, but if its anything like the HK 91 /93 then no, I am not telling you the M1 Garand can be loaded faster, I'm telling you its about the same. The "care" needed to insert the enbloc clip is the same care needed to insert most box magazines. One could even make the point that the enbloc is actually slightly less demanding than the rifles that use the "rock and lock" magazine system, but its a very small difference. And there is also the point that with everything else, you have to eject/remove the empty magazine, before putting in a full one, where the Garand automatically ejects the spent clip.

OK, if one guy has a loaded HK and the other an empty M1, then yes, the HK guy could go through his mag before the M1 guy gets loaded (especially if the HK is select fire). But that's hardly a fair comparison, isn't it??

Again, start with both empty. The same tasks are applied. Getting the enbloc clip out of a belt pouch, getting a 30 rnd stick out of a belt pouch, "carefully" inserting either into the weapon. Same task, same relative complexity, same approximate speed, depending on the skill level of the user.

Certainly having 30 rnds on tap with one reload is a desirable and important thing, and one of the reasons we don't still field the Garand. But, CAPACITY of the reload is not the same as speed of the reload. And the guys shooting Garands are essentially on par with other guns, when it comes to the SPEED of the reload. I don't really see your point that we were at a disadvantage because the Garand was "slow" to reload. It's not.

And, considering the fact that the bulk of the enemies the Garand faced were using 5 shot bolt actions, the M1 Garand comes out ahead of them, in both speed of reload and also, capacity.

And another point, how it is fair to compare a rifle designed before WWII with one designed over a half century later, where the experience of WWII combat (and everything since) is there to be drawn on, and applied to the benefit of the newer design? If the newer design isn't better in at least some ways, the designers failed to use the lessons of history available to them.
 
44, thanks for the great information.

The initial question seemed to be are large bullets like the .45 obsolete, and did the 9mm cause it.

No, it's not obsolete, but it has been replaced for all practical purposes for many reasons.

Obsolete ? No. There are people who hold on to that round because it is powerful, as long as handguns are made there will ALWAYS be guns chambered in .45.

Replaced, yes, for better or worse, the .45 has replaced it, and really, the funny thing is, the big improvement in bullets isn't really a cause, it's just a side story.

The 9mm cartridge is so obviously inferior to the .45 cartridge (assuming that you put the bullet into the body) that only a fool will call it better, or choose it in your contender analogy. But, we don't carry a bullet in a single shot handgun, we carry a pistol, and pistols that use 9mm ammo have replaced pistols that fire .45.

When almost every major organization looked at their options, they set aside the .45 and started using a 9mm luger, mak, or other.

The .45 was replaced as the default combat handgun cartridge decades ago. The situation is obvious. A powerful cartridge is obviously more powerful. Power isn't everything. In fact, power is quite obviously unimportant when judging what ammunition will be placed in the handguns that people will carry.

Did you really, seriously believe that I thought that the .45 was a better cartridge?
 
Going back to the speed of loading the M1 Garand, it can be done quite quickly. I've seen this in person and in videos. Even I'm not overly slow at it, and I have very limited experience. As I said in my response as well I don't really see that as a valid complaint. I think 44amp rebutted that well, too. Moreso I don't think the time required to load an M1 Garand is proof of the need for pistols to handle human wave attacks. Again, we found other means to counter those than needing to issue every soldier a pistol.
 
The .45 ACP an .44 Special work by mostly creating large permeate wound cavities by just being big ass bullets.

Have expanding bullets finally made big bullets obsolete?

Context.

The bullet is one part of the equation. Why limit yourself to 44 Special or 45 ACP for big bullets? I carry my S&W 69, 44 magnum loaded with light for caliber, fast HP's. Granted, it is not for everybody, it takes skill and ability to effectively shoot a magnum revolver.

The 9mm is popular because it is inexpensive and easily mastered, that does not mean it is better.

Your answer, no.
 
Getting back to the OP..

Have expanding bullets finally made big bullets obsolete?

I say, no. They haven't made big bullets obsolete. I think a more applicable question would be "have expanding bullets finally made smaller calibers a viable choice for self defense?"

And to that, I will say, generally, yes. Today, with the "good stuff".

Every JHP bullet in the world isn't equal. The best are really good today, but that wasn't always the case. Probably a number of you here today weren't shooting pistols in the 70s, when Lee Jurras and his company Super Vel proved that the light (for caliber) JHP bullet moving fast (again, for caliber) COULD work.

I began shooting pistols when "duty caliber" factory ammo essentially came in two flavors, FMJ bullets for semi autos and lead bullets for revolvers. I remember articles expounding on how the .38 Special was actually superior to the 9mm Luger, because the lead bullet of the .38 would actually, sometimes, expand a bit. 9mm FMJ never did.

Some of us remember the pre-Internet, pre-JHP, pre-Glock, pre-wondernine era. We remember what the 9mm was (and still is when you use FMJ) and are amazed and impressed by what the 9mm JHP has become today. Much, much better, but not yet "perfection", unless you buy Austrian Kool-Aid. :rolleyes:

The primary reason that the 9mm is the organizational caliber of choice isn't how well it works, as a cartridge, its because of how well it works in modern pistols, used to arm groups of people. People who you aren't going to train to the maximum level possible, only the needed level to meet your qualification standards. NO group, LEO or military has ever trained its members any more than what was considered the necessary minimum standards.

What caliber (and what gun) that the military and the police use is NOT chosen by the "foot soldiers". It is often a more political than a practical matter, and sometimes, it is entirely a political matter.

The US military didn't "abandon" the .45 caliber because of any practical reason, replacing the .45 in the 1980s was a political matter. We made a deal, back in the 50s, with NATO. We were pushing NATO to adopt our new rifle round (7.62x51mm), and they didn't want to. (expense was the usually cited reason), so, we made a deal, if they would adopt our rifle round as the new NATO standard, we would, when the time came to replace our 1911A1s, the replacement would be in "their" 9mm caliber. NATO agreed, but were not happy campers about what followed.

Because, #1, barely a handful of years later, (and another political decision) we adopted the 5.56mm round. And, #2, it took us nearly 30 years after that deal was made to decide to replace our aging inventory of 1911A1s.

They did adopt our 7.62 and decades later, we did keep our end of the bargain, adopting their 9mm as our military round.

Do note that while there were a handful of exceptions, our LEOs didn't adopt the 9mm round until AFTER it was adopted by the military. Our Police didn't give up their revolvers (by and large) for 9mm semis, until after it became our primary military pistol round. It wasn't wondernines, all by themselves, and it certainly wasn't the stellar performance of the 9mm round at the time (because at the time general 9mm performance wasn't as good as it has become today), it was because of the cost/benefits of using the same round as the federal government. YES, there were other factors, which assisted in making the decision, but I think the biggest factor was simply that the military and Federal police forces had switched to the 9mm.

Also note that, again, with a few exceptions, nobody had spent much effort trying to improve the performance of the 9mm, UNTIL about the time it was adopted by our military and police. For the first 70 some odd years of its use, very little was done to improve the terminal effectiveness of the 9mm Luger.

I do believe that the advances in bullet performance we have today came about only because of the fact that we (those in the position to make the decision) decided on the 9mm, and because of that, because we were going to use the 9mm, no matter what, we put serious effort into making it perform acceptably as a personal defense round.

AND, even so, those advances don't apply to our military, who are bound by the rules to use FMJ ammo, anyway.
 
I say, no. They haven't made big bullets obsolete. I think a more applicable question would be "have expanding bullets finally made smaller calibers a viable choice for self defense?"

Perfect. Exactly right.

I was around when jurras was selling super vel. The big gun aficionados these days rarely have anything good to say about his philosophy.

The 9mm has been loaded as a hollow point,if I remember, since the fifties or so, but it was ridiculous. The cup and core technique was used, but the entire jacket was intact and a tiny hole was formed while swaging. The jacket was heavy. the hydraulic chamber, if that's a good word, was miniscule. The profile was round and tapered. Expansion would have been nearly impossible. At the time that we were using half jacketed hollow points in the .38, we were using things in the nine that were hopeless.

The old 9mm hp were totally wrong and didn't do squat. This generation of engineered projectiles are brilliant. Back then we had hp rounds available as windows dressing. I don't know when the designs began to improve, but the skiving on the silvertip is the first step that I can remember. It was the first effort to control and support a mushroom.
 
It's kind of interesting to follow the progression. We started out with a great round and pistol, the .45, but used police revolvers. As time passed we realised that the 9mm was a "better" idea. Time passed, and people realized that it wasn't "better". In fact, it was adequate for the purpose, taken in combination with the pistol, but the available ammunition wasn't great.

It took almost a century to make a truly effective round, whereas the police revolver hp round was just dandy right out of the door.
 
I just went back and read the June 1990 American Rifleman article by Charles Petty summarizing the FBI's ammo tests. A few interesting quotes from the article:

“All other things aside, Miami was an ammunition failure” - John Hall chief of FBI's Firearms Training Unit (FTU).

“There was no meaningful ammunition testing prior to 1988” - Urey Patrick, assistant chief of the FBI's FTU.

“We don't shoot naked people very often” - Urey Patrick.

Regarding the results showing that "none of the 9mm loads came close to the performance of the 10 mm and .45", Urey Patrick said: “We expected that there would be a gap, but we didn't expect it to be so large”.

“Expansion, when it occurs , is a nice bonus, but you can't depend on it for incapacitation” - Urey Patrick.

“Based on the results of our tests, I don't care what you use as long as it starts with a '4.' “

That article was written 27 years ago when the FBI adopted the 10 mm. That was the beginning of a major change in handgun bullet development and testing. As far as cartridges, the 9 mm, perhaps, has been the biggest benefactor.
 
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That article was written 27 years ago when the FBI adopted the 10 mm. That was the beginning of a major change in handgun bullet development and testing. As far as cartridges, the 9 mm, perhaps, has been the biggest benefactor.


Your entire post was very interesting, but I only quoted the bottom of it so as not to make an extremely long quoted insert.

My question to your entire post would be, "great, but what does that make of the 9mm today?"

The 9mm has been the biggest benefactor, do we really still want a 45?
 
In 1990 the 9 mm performed poorly in the FBI tests. Today it performs very well. In the 1990s many agencies replaced their 9s with 40s. Now many agencies have replaced their 40s with 9s. And it's similar with individuals.

In the 90s I got rid of my 9 and bought a 40. Now I have a 9 and no 40. But I'm mostly in the stands watching. I don't carry, and shoot mostly single action revolvers. In autoloaders, I prefer the 1911 in 45 Auto.

I'm not sure what I would choose to carry. But I don't think I would carry a 1911, at least not cocked and locked.
 
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