Is Big Bullet Technology Dead?

[SA1911]

K_Mac,

There are two prongs to avoidance: avoiding gang infested areas (high crime areas) and knowing when to leave a venue (situational awareness). If I were five star dining and a tatted up banger walked in, I'd pay my bill and leave.

You're 100% right about putting as many rounds as possible on a threat who wants you dead, and getting the heck outta a threat's sight picture.

I cannot emphasize avoidance enough. But if it ain't an option, you cannot get shot, which is why tactics are crucial.

 

[Hal]

Surely you do not think that that is the relevant message here.

Actually - - yes - - that's exactly what I get from that video.
There is absolutely nothing in that video that pertains to anyone other than LE(which I'm not) or criminal (which I really try to avoid being).

Stick guy is going nuts beating on the doors of a Federal building.
Even the old gray fat (armed ) feds know better than to confront him.

Along comes a lone cop and tries to apprehend stick guy all by himself.

It ends badly for the guy with the bat or club or whatever it is.

#1 - my main job, when I see a guy acting strange and wielding a club is to go the other direction.
#2 - no way, no how am I going to even begin to try to backpedal away from the guy. If anything, my best chance is to step into him and (literally) stick a gun in his ear.(It sucks being disabled and dragging an oxygen tank around, but, it is what it is)

Big picture, generalize the main idea:
Sociopath attacking with impact weapon, continues toward defender despite taking rounds.

Does not apply to this video since it's nothing that an armed citizen should do. - There is no mention at all of what gun was used so it's not even about "big bullets vs small bullets" (the actual topic of the thread) - there's no followup that says when the guy with the bat ceased being a viable threat to life and limb. The guy could very well have been dead on his feet after the first shot.

I'm sorry - all that video shows is a cop backing up and shooting a threat multiple times. In the context of this thread & the audience base of the forum - it's meaningless.

 

[OldMarksman]

There is absolutely nothing in that video that pertains to anyone other than LE(which I'm not) or criminal (which I really try to avoid being).

I really have to question your abilities for analysis and comprehension.

Stick guy is going nuts beating on the doors of a Federal building. ... Along comes a lone cop and tries to apprehend stick guy all by himself.

Yes, that happened. but it is not at all the part that is relevant to the thread.

It ends badly for the guy with the bat or club or whatever it is.

Yes, just barely, and after the guy attacked the police officer with a contact weapon.

...an officer who, at that point, was defending himself, and it is for that reason alone that he was justified in the use of deadly force.

Does not apply to this video since it's nothing that an armed citizen should do.

The part in which the police officer pursues the criminal does not apply--the citizen is not sworn to enforce the law.

But once any perp attacks anyone with a weapon , it becomes purely a matter of self defense. An armed citizen would most certainly be justified in the use of deadly force at that point.

The fact that the perp was attacking a police officer who had tried to prevent him from committing a crime has by this time become completely irrelevant. The reason for the violent attack no longer matters at all.

There is no mention at all of what gun was used so it's not even about "big bullets vs small bullets" (the actual topic of the thread)....

It is , however, about the defender having the ability to fire controlled shots very rapidly. That pertains to recoil, which does relate to the topic of the thread.

...there's no followup that says when the guy with the bat ceased being a viable threat to life and limb.

That is always the case; it might be investigated in forensic analysis, or not. It doesn't matter. The video shows very clearly that the officer had an objective reason to believe, based on what he could know at the time, that his actions were necessary, lawful, and proper.

I'm sorry - all that video shows is a cop backing up and shooting a threat multiple times.

As CDW4ME posted, "substitute a citizen for the officer, ex: citizen being attacked by determined sociopath with impact weapon".

If you have not yet wondered how your "I learned to make every shot count and to conserve ammunition" concept would have worked under a similar attack", you need to think about it.

It's not clear whether you are seriously confused or are being deliberately obtuse.

BUT: I would strongly recommended that you avail yourself of some good defensive pistol training and a good course in use of force law.

 

[Hal]

But once any perp attacks anyone with a weapon , it becomes purely a matter of self defense. An armed citizen would most certainly be justified in the use of deadly force at that point.

Ha! In your dreams!
You advance on that guy and then you shoot him & I can almost guarantee you that your life from that point on is going to be in lived in the confines of a cell.

And rightly so.

You - at that point - have become the aggressor and you - at that point - are 100% in the wrong.

The man with the club - at the point you advance on him with a deadly weapon - has every right to defend himself.

BUT: I would strongly recommended that you avail yourself of some good defensive pistol training and a good course in use of force law.

Well - I would advise you to do the same before handing out potentially criminal advice to people.

Yep --

Right here:

http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/...Publications/Concealed-Carry-Laws-Manual-(PDF)

Page 17 of the manual. It's clear that if a non-LEO acted like the LEO in the video, they are - - going to get charged with a crime.

But hey, they always have the defense that - a a moderator on a gun forum said it was ok right?

 

[OldMarksman]

You advance on that guy and then you shoot him & I can almost guarantee you that your life from that point on is going to be in lived in the confines of a cell.

Close, but no cigar.

One who has instigated a confrontation, or who has engaged in mutual combat, will not be able to justify the use of deadly force--unless he has clearly indicated the intent to withdraw. At that point things change. But that's off topic.

The man with the club - at the point you advance on him with a deadly weapon - has every right to defend himself.

That may be, but his having been engaged in burglary could color that significantly.

But he cannot lawfully to come after you with the club as you retreat. Chasing someone with a weapon does not constitute lawful self defense.

And by the way, a police officer backing away has no more right to employ deadly force than would you or I, once someone starts coming at him with a weapon.

But you continue to miss the point completely.

And that point is that if someone rushes someone with a contact weapon, it may be --it will likely be--necessary to fire a number of controlled shots very rapidly to stop him.

One does not choose to try to "conserve ammunition" under such circumstances.

Illustrating that was CDW4ME's entire purpose in providing the link to the video.

Your link is dead.

 

[K_Mac]

Hal the video shows that a bad guy with a contact weapon can close on a target in a hurry. That it was a police officer is not relevant.

Had the officer not arrived when he did the next target could have been another citizen. Do you really think it would have taken advancing on, or threatening this guy to cause him to attack? Do you really think minding your own business makes you safe from a random act of violence?The question is what would you do if this guy is running at you preparing to beat you with a bat? Unless you are a superhero sticking your gun in his ear is probably not going to work, so what is your plan to keep this guy from possibly beating you to death? What if you are with a loved one who is unable to protect him/herself? Do you use your gun? How many rounds will you fire? How long will that take?

 

[OldMarksman]

Hal the video shows that a bad guy with a contact weapon can close on a target in a hurry. That it was a police officer is not relevant.....?The question is what would you do if this guy is running at you preparing to beat you with a bat?

Right.

 

[Nanuk]

I learned to make every shot count and to conserve ammunition.
You learn that when all you have is 6 rounds - plus (if you're lucky) another 12 rounds in a dump pack & help is a fair piece away.

You miss-understand. When I am doing .24 splits I am putting a 2" group @ 10 yards. It is not hosing away without care for accuracy.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

That is always impressive for shooting stationary, non-threating targets in ideal circumstances.

 

[mavracer]

It would not be useful for me. I know that I can shoot controlled shots more rapidly with a gun with less recoil.

And yet you demand empirical evidence that bigger bullets work better at stopping threats, lol

 

[5whiskey]

And yet you demand empirical evidence that bigger bullets work better at stopping threats, lol

That was my point. I don't even contend that follow up shots are as fast with .45, just that the difference is small enough that one shooter may be faster with a 1911 in .45 than a Glock 17 in 9mm because of basic platform mechanism differences, and how They fit the shooter. Obviously a 9mm 1911 will be slightly faster than a .45 1911... but you can't prove that .04 or .05 second faster shot is worth more than double the momentum with similar k/e, and .94 larger diameter at first impact. My whole point is the "follow up shot advantage" of 9mm is greatly overplayed. I used to believe this was more significant of an advantage for 9mm before I actually measured it. I have measured it. It's not much faster. So much so that a human being without a shot timer could not tell that the difference between the two calibers in skilled hands.

 

[Spats McGee]

That's enough for this episode of Caliber Wars.