Is Big Bullet Technology Dead?

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They said that in 1985, too. After 1986, they STOPPED staying that for a number of years. Now, they are saying it, again.

Note that the 9mm, which failed in the Miami shootout met every spec the FBI had at the time, including gel test penetration.

And, it still got the blame for "failing".

As far as I'm concerned, the FBI's recommendation(s) mean nothing to me, and should be looked at carefully by any and everyone outside the FBI, to see how well they apply to what you are doing, not just blindly adopted on faith because the FBI is "infallible". They aren't.
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I don't have the report anymore, but IIRC, only on bad guy was hit with 9mm or hit in a significant area and the 9mm round performed as designed. The wound was lethal, just not lethal fast enough. Lots of 9mm were fired by the FBI, but if you don't hit your target, then how can you expect it to perform? So basically, they overreacted for no realistic reason.
 
For what it is worth and it's not worth much -

I was shooting steel targets at 25 yards with my 9MM and my .45 the other day.

The 9mm was just putting the steel targets down.

The .45 was putting them down with noticeable authority.

Was watching a demonstration. 9MM would penetrate any WW2 helmet. The .45 would not. Heck of a dent though.
 
The Miami shootout always comes up with this topic. We could have an entire thread devoted to that event and the lessons learned and not learned as a result. I encourage folks to read an account on it and I also think there's a passable tv clip on YouTube from a made for tv movie that covers the event. Watch it and decide for yourself. To me the handgun caliber in use was not the crux of the issue.
 
Capacity and recoil in conjunction with equal to sometimes even better bullet ballistics against the 45 or 40S&W?
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Gonna have to disagree with this statement. Objectively, with quality loadings the .40 and .45 are measurably superior by every metric we use.

The question is: are they superior enough to justify the increased recoil and/or reduced capacity.

I go back and forth between the 9mm and .45. In similar platforms (30 vs 26, 21 vs 17 Glocks), at speed I am slightly faster with good hits on my 9mms. Much like the ballistic performance, how much does that couple tenths of a second matter in a defensive situation?

I have no idea, and there's no way to actually know short of first hand experience (which I hope to avoid).

I have confidence in both, and carry both largely based on what I am training with most on any given month. I tend to shoot one caliber pretty much exclusively based on what I am carrying.
 
I haven't seen anything credible saying that the 9 mm is superior in its wounding capability. Its popularity rests in allowing greater capacity in similar sized pistols, and in having more easily managed recoil for quicker and more accurate follow-up shots, with wounding capability similar to the larger calibers. The newer bullet technology has improved all calibers, but it seems to have closed the gap because the 9 mm had the most room for improvement when FMJs were compared.

Large calibers obsolete? No. Is the 9mm a better choice for a significant number of people? Probably so.
 
Objectively, with quality loadings the .40 and .45 are measurably superior by every metric we use.
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If and only if "we" are limiting our metrics to certain aspects of terminal ballistics.

And "measurably" dos not mean "significant".

Much like the ballistic performance, how much does that couple tenths of a second matter in a defensive situation?
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That will vary according to situation. But consider this:
  • An attacker moving at an average "Tueller" pace can move about three feet in two tenths or a second.
  • A timely physical stop will depend upon hitting key, hidden, and small internal body parts that are moving quickly in six degrees of freedom; hitting them will be much a matter of serendipity than design, and the likelihood wis increased by hitting with more shots more quickly.
  • In a close encounter (ten or twelve feet), a defender will have very little time to effect the stop.

I haven't seen anything credible saying that the 9 mm is superior in its wounding capability. Its popularity rests in allowing greater capacity in similar sized pistols, and in having more easily managed recoil for quicker and more accurate follow-up shots, with wounding capability similar to the larger calibers. The newer bullet technology has improved all calibers, but it seems to have closed the gap because the 9 mm had the most room for improvement when FMJs were compared.
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Well put.

And that's true even when older-technology JHPs are considered.
 
An expanded 45 is still going to be bigger than an expanded 9mm. I like both depending on what I'm carrying and need it for.
 
The development of smokeless powder and conical bullets greatly reduced the need for larger caliber bullets in handguns and rifles. Most of the rest of the world figured this out in the 1890's but it took another 110 years here.

I was shooting steel targets at 25 yards with my 9MM and my .45 the other day.

The 9mm was just putting the steel targets down.

The .45 was putting them down with noticeable authority.
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If ever attacked by steel plates that is good to know.

It seems to me that we have probably come pretty close to reaching the peak of what can be expected from handgun rounds. With a good hit it seems that all of them are VERY good. You can only kill a man so dead, and bigger bullets don't kill them any deader.
 
No, big bullets ( .45 acp / .44 Mag...etc ) are not obsolete.

9mm ammo has been improved to narrow the gap of effectiveness.
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As I get closer to 70 ( with some arthritis and hand strength issues, etc ), I have given up my 1911 in .45 acp over a full sized 1911 in 9mm as a primary carry gun...and because the ammo has improved so much in 9mm, I don't feel outgunned.

The FBI and a lot of law enforcement picking 9mm over many other calibers, in my view, is more related to capacity....and managing recoil, allowing faster followup shots in their officers ability to execute better follow up shots with a 9mm than with most all of the other calibers. ---- and the improved 9mm ammo has allowed them to make that choice and meet their needs.
 
The 16-round 9MM handgun does offer advantage vis-a-vis a 9-round .45 ACP. Not having to reload is a tactical advantage. Of course, a 13 round .45 ACP handgun would negate that advantage.

I'd never bet my life on a bullet expanding like a blossoming mushroom in ammo manufacturers' ads. If a bullet does expand, I'll take it; however, Murphy is always lurking.

The .45 ACP's HUGE advantages are bullet weight and diameter. Bullet weight is a component of momentum. Momentum is an excellent predictor of penetration. Without penetration, a bullet is close to useless. That's why Big 5 hunters use use large diameter, heavy bullets. You'll never see a Big 5 hunter wielding a .300 Wby Mag.

Handguns have minimal-to-no utility for military applications. Tremendous technological improvements in battle rifles have made handguns just about obsolete. When the Garand was king of battle fields, the 1911-A1 was an essential complement, especially in jungles of Pacific islands. It took too long to reload 8 '06 rounds in a Garand, which left American soldiers vulnerable to Japanese suicide attacks. Now a soldier can reload 30 more rounds in his battle rifle in less time than it would take him to bring a handgun to battery.

For self-defense, the 9MM will never equal the .45 ACP.

I have no idea why the FBI has selected the 9MM as its issued handgun cartridge. However, issued does not mean that FBI cops have to carry a 9MM. They can carry handguns from an approved list. My guess is that most of the FBI's cops will not be carrying the FBI's issued handgun cartridge. Furthermore, while I cannot definitively write that this is true, my guess is that FBI SWAT and specialized teams will continue to use their 1911-A1's chambered for .45 ACP.
 
The 16-round 9MM handgun does offer advantage vis-a-vis a 9-round .45 ACP. Not having to reload is a tactical advantage. Of course, a 13 round .45 ACP handgun would negate that advantage.
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It's more 17 rds of 9mm vs. 13 rds of 45ACP, but more than that the 45ACP pistol will do that in a frame with both a wider grip side to side and a grip that is wider front to back. So in comparing capacity between the two you have to be aware that they are dimensionally different and have to be dimensionally different to close that capacity gap.

Bullet weight is a component of momentum. Momentum is an excellent predictor of penetration. Without penetration, a bullet is close to useless.
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What's also a component to momentum is velocity, momentum is literally m*v. You can't ignore that component just because it doesn't emphasize the mass of the 45ACP. Moreso when we look at the muzzle energy, the factor most commonly advertised by the manufacturers of cartridges themselves, the differences between 9mm and 45ACP are no where near as dramatic as the differences between certain hunting cartridges or most rifle cartridges in general.

When the Garand was king of battle fields, the 1911-A1 was an essential complement, especially in jungles of Pacific islands. It took too long to reload 8 '06 rounds in a Garand, which left American soldiers vulnerable to Japanese suicide attacks.
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I honestly think the role of the 1911 in WWII, or any handgun for that matter, is overplayed. While there are excellent examples of bravery with sidearms, that doesn't make an entire war. We didn't win WWII because of 1911 and the Axis didn't lose because they had the Luger and P-38. For that matter, while magazine capacity was limited with the Garand, reloading en-bloc clips isn't that slow and there were also firearms such as the Carbine, Thompson, Grease Gun, and more than any of those belt fed machine guns that were part of a company for a reason. Are human wave attacks hard to counter? Absolutely, but we didn't end up stopping those by issuing more pistols. We stopped them with overlapping fields of fire from multiple machine gun emplacements. And if that failed we retreated back to the next trench line and repeated the process.

However, issued does not mean that FBI cops have to carry a 9MM. They can carry handguns from an approved list. My guess is that most of the FBI's cops will not be carrying the FBI's issued handgun cartridge.
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I have to be honest and say that this makes little to no sense to me. I completely agree that the FBI HRT will always do whatever it feels best, but the standard issue cartridge will go with the standard issue pistol, which current evidence says is going to be a Glock made to the FBI's standards and in 9mm. The FBI isn't going to award that contract and buy those pistols for them not to be used.

I'll also add again that the FBI is not the only national level police agency in the world. There are plenty of very well respected agencies with their own special teams elsewhere in the world and to my knowledge they are not dominated by the use of 45ACP.

There's a difference between liking and appreciating a cartridge and recognizing its current usage and placement in the world. Unless the majority of the world lives in utter denial of the all powerful 45ACP or there is some grand conspiracy stopping us from using it, at some point you have to ask why many people, including people who shoot for a living (both figuratively and literally), seem to predominantly use 9mm. None of this, once again, means the 45ACP is "bad".
 
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Every design and performance enhancement out there for the 9mm cartridge is available for the big bullets too! Just shop a little harder and you will find the same "latest and greatest" technological innovations also on top of that fat stubby .45acp brass case. As for popularity, all the major manufacturers are making and selling pistols in .45acp. And don't even get me started on how everybody and their brothers are making 1911's in 45acp these days. The 1911 may be more popular now than it has ever been.

However, as the popularity of revolvers continues to decline I think .44spl is going to become harder and hard to find.
 
Hi TunnelRat,

I do agree with your take on double stack .45 ACP handguns. The last handgun I was forced to carry was an H&K USP double stack .45 ACP. It was a beautiful gun with flawless operation. It was incredibly accurate. But I did not like it. It was huge and heavy. I begged to go back to my Sig P229 .40 S&W, which was the best and most reliable handgun I've carried, and that includes S&W revolvers. Nope. When administrators make dumb decisions, they'll rationalize dumb with extreme stupidity.

I've always believed and still believe that a good-quality 1911-A1 in .45 ACP sits alone at the top of the self-defense handgun pinnacle. I'm aware that others have different opinions.

I've carried a 1911-A1 with W-W white box 230 grain ball ammo and never felt the least bit slighted.

I've never held any other handgun that has the almost perfect natural point of a full-size 1911-A1. In fact, I'd opine that a full-size 1911-A1 has a perfect natural point.

I was new to the gig when the Model 59 had established its mediocre reputation as a cop handgun. I can't tell you of how many accounts I was told (direct evidence of primary sources) of its abysmal performance. The then state-of-the-art ammo might have been causal. Regardless, I was comforted by the fact that I wasn't carrying a 9MM. I did switch to a 9MM in the early 90's when W-W came up with the 147 grain Black Talon round. It did propel the 9MM into a category far above its previous status.

Self-defense is personal. What works for one might be all wrong for another. I'm a big, heavy bullet dude. But I also want a 100% reliable handgun that has tactical application. If I could, I'd carry a full-size 1911-A1 loaded with any quality 230 grain ammo, including ball. But it is a heavy weapon. It's surprisingly easy to conceal, but it is heavy.

I rarely carry a handgun even though I can. When I wasn't on the clock, I used to carry a Model 60 loaded with the FBI load. But it is a widow maker. I call it a neck and up gun. God forbid, were I in a gunfight (it'd be because a bad guy wanted me dead), if I didn't hit neck or above, the odds of my taking rounds (never a good thing) would be high. If there were more than one bad guy who wanted me to star at my wake, I'd of been in some serious peril. So I sought the best self-defense handgun for me. I'd of gone with my Sig P229 with 13 rounds in the gun and another 12 ready to go within a couple seconds. But it is on the difficult side of concealment. So I bought a Sig P239 .40 S&W, which is an exact replica of my P229 only smaller, which means muscle memory transfer. I've yet to carry it. But it is easy to conceal. It's far more powerful than the FBI load. It's 100% reliable. I use 180 grain Federal HST Tactical ammo. With two spare magazines, I have 22 rounds to get me out of trouble if I'm unable to avoid it, avoidance being my primary self-defense strategy.

Make no mistake, the .40 S&W performs just as was predicted. It is a darn powerful cartridge.

I have no qualms with anyone going with a 9MM. However, one should think it over very carefully if they live in CA. We have a mag restriction of 10 rounds.

Gelatin tests and other ammo tests are decent references, but they're far from definitive. There are too many variables in a self-defense scenario to isolate bullet design as predictive of performance.

My opinion is the 9MM would be my absolute minimum cartridge for saving lives of my loved ones and my life. Were I to go with a 9MM, it'd be a Sig P226 or similar handgun with standard capacity (15 round) magazines.

I've not read why the FBI has gone with the 9MM as its issued cartridge. I'm assuming its issued gun will be Glock. I am curious to learn of how many of its cops will carry either the .40 S&W or .45 ACP instead of the agency's issued gun. Were it me, I'd carry either a full-size 1911-A1 in .45 ACP or my Sig P229 in .40 S&W. But that's just me. Others would assuredly choose a different combo.

TunnelRat, I'm good with your cartridge opinions. But that doesn't mean that I concur. I'll go with science every time, and in this case, science does not agree with you. The 9MM is inferior to the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. There is just no way that the 9MM equals either the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP. But I'm more than good with your choice of what works best for you.

Momentum Indices using Federal HST Tactical ammo:

9MM 124 grains 1150 FPS Momentum Index: 20
.40 S&W 180 grains 1000 FPS Momentum Index: 25
.45 ACP +P 230 grains 950 FPS Momentum Index: 31

Sources:

Federal Law Enforcement ammo: http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/default.aspx

Momentum Calculator: http://handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

If you're in to laboratory testing, this supports the inferiority of the 9MM to both the .40 S&W and .45 ACP:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

The problem with laboratory testing is that gunfights don't occur in laboratories.

TunnelRat, I do wish you the absolute best. And I do respect your opinions. I might not agree with you, but I do respect you.
 
TunnelRat, I'm good with your cartridge opinions. But that doesn't mean that I concur. I'll go with science every time, and in this case, science does not agree with you. The 9MM is inferior to the .40 S&W and .45 ACP. There is just no way that the 9MM equals either the .40 S&W or the .45 ACP. But I'm more than good with your choice of what works best for you.
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It just so happens I have a degree in interdisciplinary mathematics and took a year of collegiate physics. So I feel like I do have a good understanding of the science. I've never seen momentum indices used as some definitive proof of anything. I also noticed you chose a +P load for the 45 ACP and a standard pressure load for the 9mm, which seems a bit biased.

You can literally come up with a measure to support just about any opinion and we've seen that on this forum. Muzzle energy is far more reported than a momentum index, including at the Federal website at the link you provide (those velocities from Federal also come from a 5" 45ACP and a 4" 9mm, not really apples to apples). Comparing standard pressure to standard pressure, even with a 1" shorter barrel the 9mm has 90% of the muzzle energy of the 45ACP.
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/federal/handgun/compare.aspx?compare=579%2C574
That's less no doubt. But my argument isn't that shot for shot 9mm provides more muzzle energy than 45 ACP. It's that the differences aren't as dramatic as people seem to believe.

I've also looked at the lucky gunner tests and quite frankly come to the conclusion that the differences there are also not dramatic as some people, such as yourself here, seem to make them. Both cartridges are capable of penetrating to the requisite depth with enough mass to disable the CNS or cause enough damage to the heart and major blood vessels to cause a sudden and dramatic loss of blood. The goal in a gun fight, as you alluded to above, is to stop the threat. Ideally you do that by hitting a switch such as the CNS or major blood vessels. The goal isn't to poke holes until the person slowly bleeds out, as that timer might see you dead too.

I never questioned your respect for me or lack thereof. To be honest I'm not overly concerned if you do or don't respect me. I'm presenting my point of view not only for you but for others reading.

Edit: I clicked the link. I see that link also covers the Taylor "Knock Out" Factor. It comes up at least once a year here. I leave it to people to Google that calculation and decide for themselves, though I will point out this.
A 55 gr 5.56mm NATO bullet moving at 3000 FPS only has a TKOF of 5 whereas a 230 gr .45 ACP bullet at 750 FPS has a TKOF of 11.
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Hi TunnelRat,

I didn't see a +P load for the 9MM at the Federal Website.

Believe me, I wasn't trying to deceive anyone. That would be tantamount to lying, and lying will destroy a person's character.

Again, I'm more that good with your going with the 9MM. The self in self-defense is literal. If it works for you, that's what you should use.

Take care
 
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