Is 6 Shots enough?

There are a lot of fallacies and misconceptions being tossed around on both sides of the argument here (and in the revolver vs. auto debate in general) and I think we'd all do well to stop, take a deep breath, and consider a few things.

First, there seems to be a lot of back and forth about the statistics regarding the average number of shots fired in a self-defense incident. On the one side, we have a group clinging to the low number and ignoring the fact that defensive shootings involving more than six shots, while rare, can and do happen while on the other hand we have another group assuming that, because there are cases where six shots were not sufficient, that capacity should be an overriding concern. The problem here is over-reliance on statistics and forgetting that different people in different circumstances have different needs. The statistic of 4.7 shots per encounter is the average of all defensive shootings in all areas.

It seems common sense to me that the risk of multiple attackers, and thus the need for higher capacity, would be different depending on the socioeconomic attributes of one's area. For example, it seems obvious that the likelihood of needing a high capacity handgun would be greater in a rough Detroit neighborhood than it would be in a sleepy Tennessee hamlet. Since most of us have never met each other and aren't particularly familiar with each others' areas, I don't see how we can accurately assess where capacity should rank on each others' priority levels when it comes to defensive firearms.

Secondly, we seem to have the bandwagon fallacy come up every time this is discussed. Inevitably, at least one person will pop up and point to the fact that the majority of police and soldiers use semi-automatics as proof that it is the best platform for all the rest of us. Conversely, we also often have someone who touts the fact that a revolver was good enough for Wyatt Earp, Frank Hammer, George Patton, Bill Jordan, or some other historical gunslinger as proof that it should be good enough for the rest of us as well. While it is true that such figures were indeed adequately armed with a revolver, we also have to remember that they lived and worked in different times and places than where we are today and that most of us are not as skilled as the historical figures we remember. While a katana was very formidable in the hands of a samurai in feudal Japan, it would not be my choice of weapon in the urban jungles of 2012.

Likewise, we need to stop and remember that what is needed or preferable in a handgun to a cop or soldier doesn't necessarily always cross over to a private individual's defensive needs. Police and soldiers, by the very nature of their professions, go forth and confront their enemies and thus often use handguns in an offensive role and are more likely to face multiple armed opponents. The private citizen, however, is limited by the constraints of the law to a purely defensive role for his/her handgun. Indeed it would be very foolish, and likely illegal, to go and seek out a street gang, drug cartel, or terrorist cell in order to do battle with them and much safer, both physically and legally, to as little shooting and as much avoiding of trouble as possible.

Also, too many assume that the police and military transitioned to semi-autos solely because of capacity and speed of reloading. While those are almost certainly important factors, they are far from the only reason for which semi-autos have become preferred for uniformed duty. Semi-autos typically generate less recoil for a given power cartridge which is particularly beneficial when you must choose a handgun which a wide array of different people must all be able to use. Likewise, semi-autos are easier and less expensive to build and maintain that a revolver which makes them more attractive to military and LE budgets.

Finally, we must be careful not to assume that the police and military are authoritative sources on all things firearm related. Both the police and military can and have made very poor choices concerning firearms on occasion. For example, the largest police force in the world (NYPD) mandated FMJ and LRN ammunition until the late 1990's out of fear that JHP ammo was politically incorrect and the U.S. military sent soldiers into the jungles of Vietnam with new and unproven rifles without cleaning kits because some political appointees had bought a sales pitch about a "maintenance free rifle." Please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that semi-autos aren't good defensive firearms, I'm just saying that we shouldn't assume they are just because cops and soldiers use them.

The bottom line is that it's impossible to be well, or even adequately, prepared for every possible situation. No one gun is best, or even particularly good, for every possible defensive situation, so debating what is the best "one-size-fits-all" defensive handgun is pretty pointless IMHO. Both revolvers and semi-automatics have distinct advantages and disadvantages compared to each other and which is best depends on the individual and his/her unique circumstances. The importance of capacity should only be determined on an individual basis after careful examination of your own area, lifestyle, and other pertinent personal information.
 
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I am of the opinion that the question of would I be undergunned with a revolver is a legitimate question and one that modern day revolver carriers should ask themselves. I am a revolver carrier, an eight shot for the last five years of my 17 years in police work. I carry a five shot back-up that is instantly available giving me 13 rounds to handle my unexpected threats before going to the moonclips that will get me back into action pretty quickly. Am I undergunned is a question I've asked myself since there are pistols out there that carry much more ammo and are faster to reload for the most part. As a revolver carrier, I am in the extreme minority when it comes to LEO but I don't care. I know why I do it and I train often for contingencies of lower capacity sidearms. I agree that the rifle is a heck of a lot better choice but I disagree that you are lost if you start out that way.

Since I have the choice and since I have chosen reliability as the most important factor, in the urban environment in which I carry, I chose the revolver. Just about every single range session I have ever been on with a multitude of others, I have seen a jam of some sort with some other officer's semi-auto. All makes, all calibers (and yes I know revolvers can jam as it has happened to me before). My opinion, is you should make your choice, not on statistics, but on what you feel comfortable with, knowing what your personal situation is likely to be. At the same time, you should think about the what if's and train for them. All and all, I think a six shot .45acp with a moonclip or two in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, is a dang fine choice.
 
Locale, crime stats, lifestyle

Depending on location, how often criminals attack, and whether or not a person is out and about when BG's are on the prowl can impact the decision of whether or not to even carry a handgun. Several of my co-workers obtained concealed carry permits, and for a while they were packing. After a time, the novelty wore off and they mostly gave that up.

The area where we live is pretty mellow and laid back. The incidence of attacks is fairly low. The number of times my wife and I are out and about after dark in a year might be 10 times, including Christmas eve.

I often carry a revolver in the truck when out and about. Never had more than a couple times I even thought about using it. Once when deer hunting alone very early in the morning and had to drive through an abandoned farm stead that had previously had drug activity going on.

When letting imagination run wild, it gets easy to think a gang of bad guys could create a scenarion where having 13 rounds would be a potential life saver. How often that has happened where you live may influence your choice of firearms. Here where we live, that has not happened. 5 rounds is plenty. For me. Here. YMMV.:D
 
Seems to me that some of the "six is enough" folks are now saying, "well, actually I do carry a reload a lot of the time." One or two even acknowledge the occasional BUG.

Please note I have not said revolvers are bad weapons. I've said it makes no sense to me, if one is only going to carry one pistol and the ammo in the gun, for that pistol to be a six shot revolver (with the possible exception of a D frame), because most six shot revolvers are as big as or bigger than autos that hold a lot more rounds.

If one is carrying a revolver and a backup, or a revolver and reloads, that's a great deal different than a revolver and the ammo it holds.

Also, I've readily acknowledged that some people are simply physically better off with a revolver due to physical constraints, or dress constraints. (Note that my 70ish parents, when they carry, normally carry a J-frame and one or two speed strips.)

I haven't claimed that all instructors claim that revolvers are inferior for all purposes. I have claimed that all the instructors I've met, or whose works I've read, recommend an auto with at least one spare magazine and or BUG for shooters who are serious about self-defense, and who devote the time to train - with exceptions made for those who, for various reasons, can't manipulate an auto.

Are there going to be some trainers who prefer revolvers? Probably. Are those trainers likely to say "Don't bother with reloads or backups"? I seriously doubt it.

For some of the new arguments:

1) Yes, military and police will deliberately go in harm's way. Of course, military and police also will often have armor, and a partner (or entire team), plus incoming backup and radio communications. Most of us don't have those other things.

For that matter, the lone officer, in addition to armor, will have OC spray or similar, a Taser or similar, and a flashlight or baton; IE he can initiate lower level measures, preemptively, that aren't available to most of us. He is more likely to initiate contact with a felon, but less likely to be selected as victim by a felon.

2) Miami notwithstanding, non-HRT FBI agents aren't known for getting into lots of extended shootouts. The FBI compiled the stats people love to quote about numbers of rounds fired, and average distance, for fights. When was the last time the FBI issued revolvers as standard? The late 80's or early 90's? The people who publish the stats still opted for good quality autos as primary sidearms.

3) The gun on the person is better than the gun at home... Ok, great, even I sometimes can only manage a J-frame with reloads. (Usually this is a shorts and tank top scenario.) However, in most modes of dress, it's not exactly challenging to conceal and comfortably carry a PPS or M&P45c, with spare magazines (and, sometimes, the 442). My best friend is 5'9", maybe 150lbs, and has to dress in nicer business casual (sales manager), and yet he can and does carry a CZ-75 or Bersa Thunder IWB. I'm trying to figure out who all these people are who can only manage a very small weapon. (I realize there are people who fit that category - my argument is that some of those people seem to assume this is a universal limitation.)
 
For me the answer is quite simply, despite all the arguements for this, that and the other.

I do feel six is enough.

Six shots is potentially enough to end six lives: a lot of responsibility to carry. Whilst multiple assailants is possible, whilst they may also be armed is possible, I think the likelihood of me needing a gun, at all, are slim given what I do, where I do it and how...

As a result, when I carry, I am happy with my snub 6 x .38spl.

This is not to say that a higher capacity would not be welcome.

However, where I live, I am required by law to carry any semi auto unchambered: essentially condition 3.

So I have the choice of my Glock with 15+0, or my "ready to go" snub.

Under these circumstances and given what 6 rounds of anything can potentially do, I do not feel undergunned with 6...
 
Six are Enough Unless One Needs More

How one may "feel" is irrelevant.

That the chance of ever having to shoot is less than remote is irrelevant.

How "happy" one may be was not the question.

Six shots are certainly "enough"...unless and until it ever turns out that they are not.

Interestingly enough, a lot of advertising copy was once devoted to the advantages of six shots over five.

I would certainly prefer any double action revolver to a derringer or to nothing at all, or to a semiautomatic pistol with an empty chamber. That last one is a new one.

Personally, I've never seen the need for a seventeen or nineteen shot capacity handgun for civilian use. On the other hand, before I took some training and learned a little about handgun effectiveness, I once thought that any double column magazine was excessive.

I carry a J-Frame from time to time. I much prefer a twelve shot semi-auto loaded with ten.

Someone earlier suggest carrying two revolvers. Until one considers how many shots may well be required to stop an attacker and the likelihood that there may by two or more, and unless one is willing to bet everything on the assumption that once the shooting starts the danger will cease, that may be seem excessive. But it does seem like a good idea.
 
Thousands of people were killed with flintlock pistols. One shot. Move ahead to the 15 shot pistols of modern day. Lots of people shot, not all of them killed.

My point in sharing this thrilling anecdote is that there are dozens of other factors that come into play besides number of rounds of ammo. Situational awareness, tactics, training etc. physical size, type of threat can all be adapted to account for the number of rounds. Six rds of 45 caliber ammunition is a formidable package. I would say that if:

You shoot the gun well,
It functions reliably
Can effectively conceal a gun that large
Are confident in your tactics and SA
You have access to comfortable and effective holsters
have an efficient method to carry and perform reloads.

Shoot about 500 rds through it and then start to carry it.


Some of the posts here discuss the chances of having to present and fire... That's only half of the story. Risk is defined as the likelihood of a negative incident occurring. Based upon your job, where you live how you travel all contribute to your risk profile. This risk profile is what you need to use to determine what gun to carry.

An over simplification of this risk based analysis looks like this, two guys, both carry, one lives in Alaska one in Florida. The Alaskan is much more likely to encounter a bear, a threat with catastrophic consequences, but one you could probably see in plenty of time. The 44 mag in this case makes sense as his clothing also supports concealing a large handgun.

Enter the Floridian, statistically, he will NOT need such a powerful handgun and not be able to conceal it very well to boot due to the light clothing needed to fight the heat. His threat is probably a thug looking to rob an old or weak person. A stainless (to combat perspiration) j frame in .38 or .357 is a better dose of medicine for the Floridian's problem.

As I said, this second set of thrilling anecdotes are probably the bookends of the possible scenarios, but they exemplify the analysis we do for our clients before recommending a firearm. It helps remove the professional or personal prejudice of the decision.

Arming and training to such a profile also helps you make a shoot or no shoot decision. Just because you have a gun and are in a 7/11 that is being robbed does not mean that you HAVE to present and fire. Especially if the scenario is well outside of your risk profile (Multiple assailants with long guns for instance). Do contingencies occur? sure. Can you prepare for them? Why not. I share this to show there is a method to leverage statistics or likelihood for something other than hoping you don't have to pull the gun that does not meet your risk profile.

My $.02
 
Situational awareness

You carry for what you expect. Most of the time, a light 5 shot wheeled gun is all my wife or I need given the places we frequent.

Like others have said, a lot of variables.

When I am with my wife that carries a 5 shot 38 w an extra 5 rounds, I carry a 5 shot revolver w an extra 5 rounds. Two people effectively engaging one threat with 10 rounds is more than adaquit.

By myself in a higher risk area I carry two guns plus ammo.

Like others have stated, practice what you carry. Most would be threats have little to no practice.
 
Mleake you just described me to a t my friend. I carry my K frame revolver, 1-2(usually 1) speedloader and a Jframe snubb for back up. For me, not carrying a reload for Any handgun when your carrying is a fallacy. With Revolvers, its to top up with out ejecting unspent rounds(or atleast trying to lol) with autos its even more important to have a nother magazine incase of a failure in the magazine.

I think its a case of revolver people(me included) thinking just badmouthing all revolvers, when your not.

I want a d frame so bad tho, perfect compliment to my K.
 
Ok revolver lovers here, including me fyi, we need to take a step back and think. They are not whizzing in our cheerios here guys, they're right. 5/6 while nominaly adaquate for the job is not optimal, you must carry a reload, and what better reload then a small gun and then some loaders on the side?

As i stated a lil bit ago, there is no reason for any one, revolver or semi to not carry spare ammo and/or a bug.
 
Posted by fasteddie565: Situational awareness, tactics, training etc. physical size, type of threat can all be adapted to account for the number of rounds.
Perhaps you can explain that to me so I can understand it. The fact is, I am not less inclined to run away, nor will I avoid with any less urgency or try to de-escalate any differently if I am carrying my larger cap firearm rather than my Centennial.

Posted by Sergeant: Most of the time, a light 5 shot wheeled gun is all my wife or I need given the places we frequent.
Certainly. The question is whether to accept or to try to mitigate the risk that pertains to the rest of the time, and one cannot really discern which is which.

Posted by mordis: I carry my K frame revolver, 1-2(usually 1) speedloader and a Jframe snubb for back up.
That's certainly more than six!
 
I think that what's lost here is that very few, if any people, choose a lower capacity firearm just because they don't think they need high capacity. All else held equal, higher capacity is better than lower capacity; but unfortunately all else is not equal. Most of the people who choose a revolver don't make said choice because of the gun's low capacity, but rather they're willing to accept the capacity limitation in order to enjoy other benefits of the platform that they find more important.

The real question here is "How important is capacity when considering a self-defense handgun" and the true answer to that question is "it depends on you and your circumstances." In my own situation, it is possible (though extremely unlikely) that I might need the capacity that a semi-auto offers, but it is more likely that I will need the power, tolerance of contact shots, and immunity to grip-induced malfunctions that a revolver offers. I see little sense in preparing for a remote "worst case scenario" type of threat at the expense of being well prepared for a threat that's nearly as bad, but far more likely.

Capacity is not the only factor that's important in a defensive handgun, it's only one piece of the puzzle. What we should all be doing is looking at the advantages and disadvantages of each platform, examine our own lives, and choose the platform which best fits our own individual needs. Remember, however, that my needs and your needs might not be the same, this is a decision that no one can make for you.

Since it's been brought up a few times, I don't really care what this trainer or that trainer recommends because he/she doesn't know me, the area in which I live, or the manner in which I choose to live my life. By and large, the trainers that I'm more inclined to give credence to are hesitant to make a blanket recommendation because they are smart enough and honest enough to admit that they simply cannot make a good recommendation to someone they don't know.
 
Well said Weblymkv!
I think we found it, the answer, the final answer to the vague question, "Is 6 shots enough?", is... Yes & No.
 
I personally do a risk analysis to determine what I need to carry every time I go out. I am fortunate to have several options. Many people do not. Many people have never had to do risk mitigation on a regular basis. The original question is very broad. I have been in places in the world where an MP5 was not nearly enough. Although it is a nice personal defensive weapon w plenty of fire power.
 
I've said it makes no sense to me, if one is only going to carry one pistol and the ammo in the gun, for that pistol to be a six shot revolver (with the possible exception of a D frame), because most six shot revolvers are as big as or bigger than autos that hold a lot more rounds.

We're back to the revolver's superior reliability and ease of use debate yet again. Have you again lost sight of the fact that my S&W Chief's Special or my Colt Detective Special will never suffer a failure to feed or a failure to eject problem with zero warning like your similarly-sized pocket semi-auto could suffer?

Also, virtually all similarly-sized subcompact semi-autos don't offer the ability to "select" a trigger pull like both my Colt or S&W do. Most pocket-size semi-autos are striker fired or DAO and offer no choice between a very light weight and precise SA pull or the heavier and longer DA pull.
 
If those who carry high capacity auto loaders AREN'T carrying a backup magazine, then they are not prepared for the occasional, accidental "mag dump", or mag malfunction, etc. It is always wise to have options. Same with a revolver. Say the cylinder just STOPS. Could be a high primer, or some small piece of lint, crud, or other foreign stuff etc got wedged between a cartridge and the breech. Easier to reload with a fresh six than analyze the problem in the heat of the moment. Will you NEED more than six (or more) shots? Who knows, but they are nice to have along.
 
Easier to reload with a fresh six than analyze the problem in the heat of the moment. Will you NEED more than six (or more) shots? Who knows, but they are nice to have along.

Drop it, go for bug. Likely for that your cylinder is going to be jammed/shut closed.
 
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