Is 6 Shots enough?

Then again, I had a factory SD round squib in one of my revolvers, once. That'll disable a revolver real good.
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A squib will disable a semi-auto real good too. Nothing new there...

Mleake, I will continue to carry my six shooter, thank you very much. As to becoming an outlier, everyone rolls the dice whether its with a semi-auto or a revolver. None of your many, many, .... many words have made for a compelling argument that revolvers are inadequate. Your 'august' opinion doesn't hold water with me.
 
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I think 6 is enough for carry. If you're under fire you should be looking for cover first, then a way to get out of there. Trying to out draw some guy like in the old west is silly, stupid and will most likely get you killed.

If you're forced to stand your ground and defend then it's good to have a back up or two. I favor the New York Reload at home. I have a few pistols ready to go.

I think most bad guys value their own lives as well. Once they find out they aren't attacking some helpless unarmed civilian they tend to boogie out of there because they know if they don't get shot by the guy they are trying to rob, then the cops will be there soon once the guns start letting out loud booms.
 
Skadoosh, likewise.

Of course, it isn't only my opinion, it's the opinion of police, militaries, and self-defense trainers.

But your mind is made up, so enjoy your point of view.
 
Ok, now im level headed, had me some carbs, and wings, so im feeling better now.. Ok. First off Mleake, im sorry for attacking you specificly. I just am passionate about revolvers, i love them, i love that they have made me a better shooter.

Now I do agree that the semiauto is a better combat gun then the revolver, just due to capacity and speed of reload. My contention is, that for normal carry and situations a six shooter should be fine. I do feel that, every person who carries a gun should carry a bug. If i run out of ammo with my main, ill always go to my bug first. Revolver or semi, a bug is a must. Now When it comes to revolvers and bugs, i want a small framed 6 shot revolver, so i can use the same safariland loaders as my K framed gun. So for me, i know that narrows it down to either a Colt detective special or a Taurus 856, so we all know who wins that quality fight.

Practice is important to me, i spend the beginning of my practice working on basics, sight alignment and trigger controll. Then i work on drawing and firing, at one target. Lastly i work on engaging 2-3 targets. I find i get ansy when engaging 3 targets becuase that is 2 shots per target, which may not be enough. So that is why i am practicing switching to my bug for when i run empty. Also part of the reason why im refinishing my revolver from fragile blueing to a much tougher coating..
 
mordis,

Apology accepted. Thank you.

My thing is, I've read too many accounts of cases where six weren't enough, or where six was enough, but then the person was standing around with an empty gun, waiting for the police, and hoping the assailant didn't have friends who were going to show up.

I'd prefer never to be in such a situation, and most of the time I can take steps to avoid it. (Edit: Note that avoidance ideally begins with not being there in the first place - I rarely go to bars, etc - and is followed by de-escalation, retreat, etc... but sometimes things just happen despite our intentions and actions.)

I'm not anti-revolver. I just think a single revolver, no backup or reload, is an odd choice unless one can only manage to hide a small revolver. (Those situations do arise.)
 
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There is another good article in this months (July 2012) SWAT magazine. If you haven't bought it yet, you should. Lots of good info in this issue.

It is about a Tom Given's training class, written by D.K. Pridgen.

In it he discusses some of Tom's data.

My paraphrasing of the 10 data points discussed:

9 out of 10 fifteen feet or less (one at 15 yards)
3.8 rds average (max 11 rds)
95% hit ratio.

So parsing the data, if one can assume this is a representative sample. In one of out 10 times you will need more than 6 shots and you will need to be able to hit at greater than contact distances.

It was also mentioned that:

50% involved robbery, 40% were multiple assailants and only 1 occurred at home. Many of them were around parked cars.

Sounds like it was an excellent class with very real world applications as opposed to more SWAT/Military type training. I am really interested to hear more of his data and see if I can spot any trends.

I definitely need to put Rangemaster higher on my list. (Especially since they are right down the road :D)
 
Of course, it isn't only my opinion, it's the opinion of police, militaries, and self-defense trainers.
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Come on now, Mleake. You are twisting words yet again to fit your perspective.

We are not talking about the opinion of LE or the military deems is suitable for use or carry while on duty. The police and military, with the support of back up, actually seek out and go into harm's way. It is why they deem a high-capacity semi-auto as more appropriate for their needs.

Nor did I ever say that a reload wasn't a good idea. I usually carry a speedstrip when I carry my six-shooter.

We are talking about reasonably cautious adult civilians going about their daily lives who choose to carry a handgun for personal protection. A civilian is not seeking out trouble, but instead generally tends to look out for and avoid trouble. He/she is using his/her weapon to protect their own life and limb or their family.

Statistically, a civilian who pulls his/her handgun to get out of harm's way will not actually need all 17 rounds from a high-capacity Glock 17 or S&W M&P 9mm to do so. Time and again a single-digit capacity revolver has proven more than up to the task.

Unless, of course, you are saying that the police and military experts themselves are recommending that civilians choose to only carry high-capacity handguns, which I don't think you are.

And as to your contention that self-defense trainers all recommend a semi over a revolver, that is a very bold statement. And one that is more than just likely to be completely false. I'd like to see you prove that one.
 
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For 99.9% of us not even having a gun is enough to get us thru life. For the remaining .1% one shot may be enough, 2 shots, 10 shots, heck some may need a case of ammo. But for a mere civilian 6 shots is light years ahead in the world of SD compared to no shots. Threads like this = too much free time for some folk.

LK
 
The Opinion of Self Defense Trainers?

Ask Tom Givens.

Note what the host carried on the aforementioned episode of The Best Defense.

If you sign up for a high performance defensive pistol class, it is highly likely that they will tell you to bring a double-column semi-auto. The reason is that one simply cannot do very well at all in the drills--fast shooting, multiple shots on multiple targets--with a revolver.

I do think that all trainers will say that it is better to have a firearm with you than to leave it at home. Sometimes that indicates in favor of a small revolver or pocket pistol.

Some trainers have demonstrated the advantages of carrying a revolver with a concealed hammer in a pocket. That was my mode of carry yesterday.

So--the small revolver has its uses, and you can find training courses that are intended for those who carry them.

Until one has taken some high performance courses, and preferably, some FoF training, and talked to some highly regarded SD trainers, I do not think that one should (1) presume to know the best choice or (2) believe that he or she is adequately prepared for the eventuality of a violent criminal attack.
 
With the newer plastic fantastic semi autos holding from 2-3 times as many rounds as the traditional 6 shot in a compact, rugged package the question becomes; why would you limit yourself to a revolver?

How many LEO forces still use revolvers?

Nuff said.
 
Posted by COSteve: With the newer plastic fantastic semi autos holding from 2-3 times as many rounds as the traditional 6 shot in a compact, rugged package the question becomes; why would you limit yourself to a revolver?
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Some people have difficulty operating the slides of semi-autos; also, some people are less adept at making them work due to limp-wristing. Those are reasons for an individual preference.

Also, I think a concealed hammer revolver is usually better if pocket (holster) carry is called for.

But if one can carry and operate a larger capacity semi auto effectively, your point is well taken.
 
"...why would you limit yourself to a revolver? " [COSteve]

Guess you didn't read post #24.

"Since experiencing a first shot failure (dud) in a very accurate 10-shot 45ACP SW99, I am now carrying a S&W 22-4, 6-shot 45ACP moon clip revolver." [Post #24]

With a revolver you just pull the trigger again. With a semi-auto you have to clear the dud before you can shoot again, which might mean I am shot and possibly stopped. Not good.

Reliability always trumps a slow shooting semi-auto.
 
"Note what the host carried on the aforementioned episode of The Best Defense"

Oh no. We aren't going to treat this show as Gospel now, are we?
 
I have no problems with carrying a snubbie revolver with just 5 shots.

Chances of you needing to use it... 1 in ...?

Further chances of you needing to fire more than 5 shots in an encounter if you ever are in one, 1 in .....?


Chances that you'd leave a larger semi-auto sitting at home in the safe because it didn't fit your attire that day?

A lot higher.
 
Lets not forget the Zimmerman case. Imagine if he had five loaded mags on his belt. They would have painted him as some vigilante, well I guess they already are.

But my piont is, that guy could have been any one of us. If I tell the court I carry a small J frame revolver just for my own protection I think that's an easier case than trying to prove my hi-cap Glock 23 with five extra loaded mags are just for my own protection.
 
SS Steve: "that guy could have been any one of us. If I tell the court I carry a small J frame revolver just for my own protection I think that's an easier case than trying to prove my hi-cap Glock 23 with five extra loaded mags are just for my own protection.
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You only carry a gun for defense in court????? :eek:
 
I'm not Tom Givens, and he is not me. Here is my take: You will NEVER be in the "average" gun fight. 2). You will not have your biggest gun on you when you need it. 3). You will never have enough ammo. 4) You can never practice enough, or plan for all scenarios. 5) You will MOST likely prevail because the odds and luck are on your side. Based on the shootings I have studied, etc, these seem to be the end results for the innocently armed in the encounters. The good guys don't always win, but the armed citizens, soldiers, or cops that get caught up in the shoots usually are the winners, along with the other noted points. Note: For most of us, the ammo we actually carry seems like very little when the shooting starts. One never knows when the shooting will end, and if it was enough ammo until it is all over. Remember, you will NOT be in the "average" shootout.
 
Posted by baccusboy: I have no problems with carrying a snubbie revolver with just 5 shots.
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None of us can know that unless and until the need to use it arises.

It is a judgment call. Let's hope that, should the need arise when we have decided to carry one, it proves sufficient.

Chances of you needing to use it... 1 in ...?
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The likelihood is less than remote. Those of us who carry do so because of the stakes.

Further chances of you needing to fire more than 5 shots in an encounter if you ever are in one, 1 in .....?
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At that point one has to assess conditional probability--the likelihood that more will be needed when the occasion does in fact present itself.

Assume for the moment, just for the sake of discussion, that the very small sample cited by Crow Hunter is representative and comprises an adequate sample on which to base a judgement. (It does not, but let's say so anyway). That's a ten percent chance. Considering the stakes, are you willing to bet on it?

It's a judgement call.

Chances that you'd leave a larger semi-auto sitting at home in the safe because it didn't fit your attire that day?
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That's an excellent question, but one can manage the outcome.

And one can choose what to carry on that day.
 
Posted by JimPage: SS Steve: "that guy could have been any one of us. If I tell the court I carry a small J frame revolver just for my own protection I think that's an easier case than trying to prove my hi-cap Glock 23 with five extra loaded mags are just for my own protection.
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You are referring to indications of state of mind, which could become important under some circumstances when the evidence is ambiguous.

With the example of five extra magazines, the argument would likely be difficult to counter.

With a standard service auto and one extra magazine, expert witnesses can neutralize the argument and have effectively done so--even with two extras.
 
As the saying goes (and it seems like a few others have touched on this):

"I'd rather have six shots definitely, than fifteen shots maybe."

I only have six shots in my house gun. But I don't have to worry about limp-wristing, FTF, FTE, double feed, bad magazines, bullet shape, etc.

And any of those semi-auto malfunctions are much more likely to happen under stress than a long, drawn out gunfight against multiple attackers.
 
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