Is 5 Enough?

Is 4+1 enough capacity for a 12 gauge defensive shotgun?

  • Yes

    Votes: 40 74.1%

  • No

    Votes: 14 25.9%
  • Total voters
    54
  • Poll closed .
chance....and deformed shells

Yes indeed, plastic shells WILL deform under the constant and heavy pressure of an extended magazine. I have seen it myself with name brand Winchester Ranger LE buckshot loads. I also suspect that there was constant mild battering of the shells within the full magzine as the spring and other loads acted as an impact hammer on each other while the vehicle traveled all manner of roads on patrol.

The deformity was not so bad so as to keep them from exiting the magazine, nor do I suspect they would fail to chamber if a pump gun was worked aggresively. But the shells were certainly no longer factory fresh.
One more reason to inspect your weapon and ammo.....frequently.
 
My CCW instructor (ex cop) said he keeps a round of plastic "less lethal" in the chamber, and the magazine full of 00. His philosophy was you get one warning shot. . .
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Get a new instructor, that is poor advise at best.
 
bamaranger,,,i posted on here what my friend told me about the deformed shells,,,i did not see the shells or the gun,,,i do not know how long the gun was in a loaded state,,,1 week 8 weeks,,,maybe longer,,,i dont know,,, i do know he said he had to take the magazine apart to get the shells out,,,my suspicion is,,, even if they would have came out of the mag tube they maybe would not have chambered in his 1100,,,but you are right ,,,there is a lot more pressure on extended mag springs,,,and the jack hammer effect could cause a problem

it is a lot different loading 8-9 shells and shooting them,, than leaving them stacked up for unknown length of time with constant pressure just sitting there

keep your stuff clean and check it often,,,these days you just never know when it will be asked to work and not fail


my .02

ocharry
 
I don't like putting observations out without some sort of reference... but with all the talk of shotgun shells deforming, I remembered to shoot out the shells in my home defense shotguns.

The Ithaca, which I loaded back in the end of November 2016, had all four rounds in the tube perfect (Remington Low Recoil 00). I do this once a year (defensive ammo, I put practice rounds through it periodically), but figured I'd do it the same time as my 870 Police to get both on the same schedule.

Looking at my notes, I actually am a month past a year with the Winchester PDX1 (slug/00) I leave loaded in it. These shells were loaded in the middle of June 2016... but hey, crap happens (did it a little early than the middle of the month since I have a wedding to go to this weekend).

ZAfVwuI.jpg


For about 13 months, the rounds were fine in the tube. You do see some marks on the brass face from the plastic of the shell before it contacting, but there were no issues with any deformation. I'll also add that the rounds in the TacStar side-saddle were fine (four other PDX1, and two Federal shells), as well. The Remington in the MidwayUSA shotgun card were also as if they just came out of the box. In both shotguns, all the rounds functioned 100%.

Being shells stack in the tube magazine in the strongest position, I'd say they shouldn't give most people problems. In detachable magazines, where shells are stacked on top of one another, I feel you have a higher chance of deformation. If you take a paper towel roll, it is a lot easier to squeeze horizontally opposed to vertically. Stress is applied along a much longer area from the front of the shell to the rear, (folded face, primed brass end) compared to a similar stress going from the opposite edge to edge.
 
3. If you rack the gun to scare the opponent and you had a round it it - you are down a round!
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As Frank (Henry Fonda) said, "People scare better when they are dying."

As for number of shots... it's a SWAG. 2 might be plenty, or 20 not enough. My 12 gauge Mossberg 500 Mariner has 5 in the tube and 4 on the Tac-Star (also a Magpull stock!) I hope it is plenty but we also have an M1 Carbine.

Deaf
 
I bought a Keltec KSG and loaded one side with 00 Buck and the other tube with slugs. I certainly didn't buy the gun thinking I needed that many rounds, but I like the short bullpup form. Having a "few" extra rounds doesn't hurt unless you're lugging it around for a long time.
 
Plastic shot shells WILL deform in the tube.

I had a Remington 870 Police with a factory extension loaded with Federal #1 buckshot that deformed after just a couple of months.
The cases developed bulges between the shell head and the shot column.
They'd still chamber, but once they start bulging it will continue until they are no longer reliable.
Taking them out and "resting" them does no good. They don't un-bulge and once loaded back in the gun they continue bulging.

I've had reports from police that this happens with guns kept in an upright rack in patrol cars, especially in summer heat and in cars that are old and don't have great shocks.

The problem seems to be worse in guns with extended magazines, and even worse with foreign made shot shells.

Whether 4-5 shells is enough depends entirely on the circumstances when you need to use the gun.
If you live across the street from a biker bar and they like to do group assaults on the neighbors, you may well need a lot more ammo.
If you're likely to face the typical burglar who panics and runs as soon as he knows someone is home and armed, you may need no shells at all.

Another consideration is that people who break into homes are not normal people and are at least partially insane.
Often they just don't do the normal thing and run as soon as they know the home owner is armed. Often they just keep coming.
While the shotgun is the deadliest and most effective close range gun, even the shotgun doesn't always stop people with one shot.

What you have to do is a Real World threat analysis of what is the MOST likely situation you might face and prepare as best as possible for that, always with the knowledge that sometimes things don't work out as you plan.

A great advantage of the shotgun is that it's so adaptable.
Buy changing ammo, magazines, sights, and spare ammo availability you can set it up to cover many different situations, and change it as needed.

Then too, these days with detachable magazine shotguns and guns like the Kel-Tec KSG with it's double magazine tubes holding 7 shells in each tube, you can have more then just 4-5 and still be compact and handy.
 
One shot is enough more than likely. Honestly no gun at all is probably all you'll need. It depends on what you want to be prepared for. One guy with no gun? Or a whole gang?
 
What you have to do is a Real World threat analysis of what is the MOST likely situation you might face and prepare as best as possible for that, always with the knowledge that sometimes things don't work out as you plan.
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If you mean planning for reasonably probable situations, not just likely, I agree. Planning for unlikely remote possibilities is low priority to me.

My SG is the 870 security model, the older one with a 4 round tube and a two round extension, which takes 6+1. If I already had a standard 870 that only took 4+1, I wouldn't worry if I couldn't add a 2 round extension. But I don't live across the street from a biker bar.

For that matter, my primary defense gun is a 9 mm. If stuff ever hit the fan, it will still be nice to have the 12 gauge.
I only have ever had one encounter where a couple of large guys, actual bikers, dropped by to thump me. I doubt that they were thinking of doing much more then put a hurt on me. I had a .38 but never had to produce it and actually became friends with these guys.

It is very unlikely that given my current lifestyle I will ever need anything for self defense as WV opines. But if you are going to get a gun, depending on your finances, I think a one shot is cutting things thin, but it is sure better than nothing.
 
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Dfariswheel said:
Plastic shot shells WILL deform in the tube.
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Never said they wouldn't... just gave an example of ammo that was loaded for 13 months in my defensive shotgun that didn't.

I'll safely say that quality ammo, in a tube-fed shotgun that is in a common home defense role, will be fine from deformation for a least a year. While I posted that picture, I've been firing my defensive loads out of my shotgun yearly since 2009. I've unloaded the shells in the gun prior to taking it to the range, and never saw an issue with any shell. Hornady TAP (00) was what I originally loaded, then Winchester PDX1 (slug/00). The Remingtons (Low Recoil 00) in the Ithaca is more because I had them and being I wanted a separate shotgun that my girlfriend could train/depend on.
 
In any case with more than 5 targets, chances are they are grouped. The spreading a short barrel 12 with no choke has at just 20', combined with over penetration, I wouldn't want to be bad guy #6.

My primary hd is a 4+1, I leave the action partially open with +1 just out of the chamber. Pdx slug/00 buck mix as the load. 5 extra rounds in a holder on the stock.
Secondary long hd is a win 1200 28" with extension for 10 round capacity. It has standard 00 in it, but fires a much tighter grouping making the pdx total overkill.
 
Yes indeed, plastic shells WILL deform under the constant and heavy pressure of an extended magazine.
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'Course, that's why I keep brass in mine. 6 + 1.


Herco with 11 gauge wads and OO buck. I trust my loads over any factory.

JT
 
Wow, love the solid brass hulls, where did you get them? I've only ever seen pictures of brass hulls loaded for black powder.
 
JoeSixpack said:
Wow, love the solid brass hulls, where did you get them? I've only ever seen pictures of brass hulls loaded for black powder.
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Brass hulled shotshells were used from WW1 into Vietnam as the paper hulls used at the time swelled up and jammed the guns when exposed to moisture.
 
My answer to the question, "Is 5 rounds enough?", I would say that if it's what you already have and want to know if it will most likely be enough to use in a defensive situation, I'd say "Yes", especially if you attached an elastic butt cuff shell carrier to your stock which would give you quick access to an additional 5 or 6 rounds if the opportunity came up to do a quick reload during a break in the situation.

However, if you don't already have such a shotgun and are looking to buy one specifically for defense, then it might be better to look for something that's higher capacity. Keep in mind however that higher capacity means having a longer magazine and barrel which would put a little more weight out front and make handling a bit different as a result. It might also mean having a barrel that is not threaded, making the shotgun not as versatile for other purposes.
 
Denny Hansen, from SWAT - our sponsor - has an excellent article on HD shotgun usage and the usual BS that folks spout.

Buy the new issue and give it a read.
 
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