101combatvet
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It was with support and combat support personnel. On the front line it was mainly issued to NCOs and Officers. Look at the TO&E.
Is 30 Carbine the Round of the Future?
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It was with support and combat support personnel. On the front line it was mainly issued to NCOs and Officers. Look at the TO&E.
101combatvet
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If the cartridge had a bottleneck it might be worth looking into. It doesn't.
101combatvet
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No one is interested in bringing the .30 caliber carbine round back to life.
Still combat support and front line. But I thought we were talking about the cartridge?
Its tough to separate the .30 Carbine cartridge from the M1 carbine, but lets look for a moment at the other .30 carbine guns.
The Marlin 62(?), where is that, today? The Kimball semi auto pistol? The Auto Mag III, the Universal Enforcer? all defunct, a long time now.
Only the Ruger Blackhawk is in current production. Possibly some T/C Contender barrels out there, too...
The main reason the .30 Carbine was popular was the carbine itself, and the low govt surplus pricing when the guns and ammo were released for public sale. Also, it was the first GI rifle small enough to be easily concealed in a seabag...
If the .30 carbine cartridge had enough merit on it's own, more guns would have been chambered for it, and they would have stayed in production.
The Marlin 62(?), where is that, today? The Kimball semi auto pistol? The Auto Mag III, the Universal Enforcer? all defunct, a long time now.
Only the Ruger Blackhawk is in current production. Possibly some T/C Contender barrels out there, too...
The main reason the .30 Carbine was popular was the carbine itself, and the low govt surplus pricing when the guns and ammo were released for public sale. Also, it was the first GI rifle small enough to be easily concealed in a seabag...
If the .30 carbine cartridge had enough merit on it's own, more guns would have been chambered for it, and they would have stayed in production.
The 30 Carb. has been declared dead more than once. That's why it manifested itself in a Balckhawk, The AutoMag III, and more recently Auto Ordinance reintroduced a copy of the carbine itself. Not to mention past tries like the Marlin 62 and the Enforcer that were previously talked about.
You might as well say the 410 was a dead round too until the 410 Derringers appeared and then the Judge which brought it new life and suddenly load development happened giving us PDX ammo and Good Buckshot loads.
The 30 Carbine round has more going for it than many people give it credit for.
You might as well say the 410 was a dead round too until the 410 Derringers appeared and then the Judge which brought it new life and suddenly load development happened giving us PDX ammo and Good Buckshot loads.
The 30 Carbine round has more going for it than many people give it credit for.
101combatvet
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Definitely dead for military use.
Bill DeShivs
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I believe there is a brand new version of the Enforcer. I saw a picture in the Rifleman magazine. Of course there are several new versions of the GI carbine.
Ah, yes, the Ruger Blackhawk (starting in the 1970s), the AMT AutoMag III (in the 1980s), and the Kahr/Auto Ordnance revamp "especially for baby boomers who wanted one when they were 12 but now have to spend $800 for it" version. Nope, it was great 30-40 years ago, now it's on its last legs. Odd head size says no more mass-produced rifles, ammo is $25/box of 50 since there is no more milsurp stuff, and the old WW2 guns are snatched up and sitting in someone else's gun safe. Sure, it's fun to shoot, but so is my 7.62X39 bolt rifle.
Aaaaah, the old LeverMatic. Still holds a place in my heart. Not a good one, though.
Maybe I'm wrong thinking 30 Carbine dead, because look at the Tokarev and how it surged here in the past 10 years. Naaaaah!
Same cartridge as the 300 Blackout. That one is coming on strong right now. It may be the next "fade-away champ" like the 6.8 SPC, but for now it's doing OK.
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I think it is really hard to talk about a cartridge without talking about the platforms that it is used in, and in the case of the 30 Carbine there were more M1 Carbines built than all of the other platforms combined. Along that line of thinking I think the point is that everything you can do with a 30 Carbine in ANY platform can be done by cheaper and more readily available alternatives, at least right now.
300 Blackout, 357 Magnum have been discussed quite thoroughly, but in the role of "personal defense weapon" it's hard to deny the utility of just the standard 5.56x45 or 7.62x39 loads, or even 9x19 if you are truly looking at "personal defense" ranges.
I find it interesting that the 327 Federal Magnum duplicates the 30 Carbine ballistics out of the Ruger Blackhawk. Evidently enough people thought the 30 Carbine was enough of a dead end to introduce another cartridge that fills in as a ballistic twin. Could just be a ploy to sell more guns.
I won't go so far as Scorch and say that the 30 Carbine is dead, I expect that it will hang on for a good long while. Same as 303 Enfield or 7x57 Mauser, they aren't exactly as common as they once were but the millions of Enfields and Mausers out there chambered in those cartridges ensure that ammunition will be made to feed them for many years to come.
Jimro
300 Blackout, 357 Magnum have been discussed quite thoroughly, but in the role of "personal defense weapon" it's hard to deny the utility of just the standard 5.56x45 or 7.62x39 loads, or even 9x19 if you are truly looking at "personal defense" ranges.
I find it interesting that the 327 Federal Magnum duplicates the 30 Carbine ballistics out of the Ruger Blackhawk. Evidently enough people thought the 30 Carbine was enough of a dead end to introduce another cartridge that fills in as a ballistic twin. Could just be a ploy to sell more guns.
I won't go so far as Scorch and say that the 30 Carbine is dead, I expect that it will hang on for a good long while. Same as 303 Enfield or 7x57 Mauser, they aren't exactly as common as they once were but the millions of Enfields and Mausers out there chambered in those cartridges ensure that ammunition will be made to feed them for many years to come.
Jimro
Gunplummer
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It will probably go away. Like the 7.62x25, it has a comeback now and then because of the cheap ammo that becomes available once and a while. Surplus military long guns stay alive because they are used for hunting. I only ever saw one .30 carbine in the woods. Not too popular for hunting.
I'm in the camp that the .30 carbine was never good at much of anything. It's got pistol power in a rifle sized weapon. A lot of that was the M1 carbine platform, but still...
With .300 BLK entrenched on by far the most popular platform today, I'm not seeing much of a chance of a comeback.
With .300 BLK entrenched on by far the most popular platform today, I'm not seeing much of a chance of a comeback.
I carried a standard M2 Carbine in Korea, and a modified M2 in Vietnam, and as long as you know its limitations, it is a Outstanding Gun.
I would actually like to find an affordable one like those Enforcers made in the 60s-80s. I retired from the Army years ago, and had not handled any weapons till the last year. Think it would be a fun little gun.
This is my 1943 Underwood I recently bought at a pawn shop.
I would actually like to find an affordable one like those Enforcers made in the 60s-80s. I retired from the Army years ago, and had not handled any weapons till the last year. Think it would be a fun little gun.
This is my 1943 Underwood I recently bought at a pawn shop.
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I have been in countless threads like this over the years, and there are few things that I have seen defended as fervently.
I am in the camp of people that never really got the attraction. I own a USGI Carbine, and I own the .30 Carbine Blackhawk. I have owned at least two other USGI carbines in the past and I have handloaded the .30 Carbine cartridge. So, I have some experience with it.
After playing around with them on and off for 20 to 30 years, I still consider both the carbine itself as well as the cartridge to be mediocre at best. I am not going to debate whether or not the carbine has served a useful role for the military in years gone by. But today ? Or in a situation where you can have your choice of whatever you want like we do today as civilian gun owners ?
No
I am in the camp of people that never really got the attraction. I own a USGI Carbine, and I own the .30 Carbine Blackhawk. I have owned at least two other USGI carbines in the past and I have handloaded the .30 Carbine cartridge. So, I have some experience with it.
After playing around with them on and off for 20 to 30 years, I still consider both the carbine itself as well as the cartridge to be mediocre at best. I am not going to debate whether or not the carbine has served a useful role for the military in years gone by. But today ? Or in a situation where you can have your choice of whatever you want like we do today as civilian gun owners ?
No
For those of us who have been reloading for years, we all have seen loading data change from loading manual to loading manual. I have been told that this is because as years go by, better and more sophisticated instrumentation has become available to the powder and bullet manufacturers.*
But.....I can remember getting into one of these .30 carbine discussions years ago. Probably on this board but I don't remember that part of it. Anyway, I made the statement that the .30 Carbine was inferior to the .357 handgun. One of the moderators jumped all over me. I said, OK, well......here is a link to the Alliant Powder website which lists a load for the .357 using a 110 grain bullet and Blue Dot powder that fires that 110 grain bullet at a higher velocity than USGI .30 Carbine ball ammo when fired out of the carbine. And before you tell me that that data was obtained using a test fixture, I loaded and fired this load out of my 6 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk and here is my detailed data that I obtained personally out of my own gun and my own chronograph.
And, as is typical in these discussions, he just pretended he hadn't read that and kept right on posting.
Facts didn't fit in with his agenda.
*The reason for that first paragraph is that this load is no longer found on the Alliant website. I am not sure why, but it may have been over pressure for the .357 Cartridge. That being said, I loaded and shot quite a few of them. It made a great jackrabbit load.
EDIT: just for the heck of it, I looked up Alliant's website today to see what they say for a 110 grain bullet. The fastest load they list for .357 is using Blue Dot at 1680 fps out of a six inch barrel. The .30 Carbine USGI ball ammo is commonly listed as having a muzzle velocity of something just over 1900 fps and I have never seen any reference as to what they used to obtain this number (carbine, test fixture.......). So using today's loading data, a 6" barrel in .357 can fire a 110 grain bullet to within under 200 fps of USGI .30 Carbine ball ammo. However, this can then spin off into a discussion about who recommends a 110 grain bullet in .357 as a defensive load.........................
As an interesting side note, the Alliant website only lists one load for a .30 Carbine 110 grain bullet and using their load of 2400 powder, it produces 1675 fps out of a 18" barrel. I realize this kind of discussion is filled with variables but this load out of a 18" barrel, is 5 fps less than their .357 load out of a 6" barrel.
The .30 Carbine in THE sacred cow of the shooting world.
But.....I can remember getting into one of these .30 carbine discussions years ago. Probably on this board but I don't remember that part of it. Anyway, I made the statement that the .30 Carbine was inferior to the .357 handgun. One of the moderators jumped all over me. I said, OK, well......here is a link to the Alliant Powder website which lists a load for the .357 using a 110 grain bullet and Blue Dot powder that fires that 110 grain bullet at a higher velocity than USGI .30 Carbine ball ammo when fired out of the carbine. And before you tell me that that data was obtained using a test fixture, I loaded and fired this load out of my 6 1/2" Ruger Blackhawk and here is my detailed data that I obtained personally out of my own gun and my own chronograph.
And, as is typical in these discussions, he just pretended he hadn't read that and kept right on posting.
Facts didn't fit in with his agenda. *The reason for that first paragraph is that this load is no longer found on the Alliant website. I am not sure why, but it may have been over pressure for the .357 Cartridge. That being said, I loaded and shot quite a few of them. It made a great jackrabbit load.
EDIT: just for the heck of it, I looked up Alliant's website today to see what they say for a 110 grain bullet. The fastest load they list for .357 is using Blue Dot at 1680 fps out of a six inch barrel. The .30 Carbine USGI ball ammo is commonly listed as having a muzzle velocity of something just over 1900 fps and I have never seen any reference as to what they used to obtain this number (carbine, test fixture.......). So using today's loading data, a 6" barrel in .357 can fire a 110 grain bullet to within under 200 fps of USGI .30 Carbine ball ammo. However, this can then spin off into a discussion about who recommends a 110 grain bullet in .357 as a defensive load.........................
As an interesting side note, the Alliant website only lists one load for a .30 Carbine 110 grain bullet and using their load of 2400 powder, it produces 1675 fps out of a 18" barrel. I realize this kind of discussion is filled with variables but this load out of a 18" barrel, is 5 fps less than their .357 load out of a 6" barrel.
The .30 Carbine in THE sacred cow of the shooting world.
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But some of us live in states that don't let us have whatever we want. I for example live in The Peoples Republik of Kalifornia. If I want an AR, it is limited to a 10 round bullet button or pinned mag.
I can buy a NEWLY manufactured 30 Carb. and even "restricted" to 10 round mags, they are at least detachable. The carbine is not part of our AWB. I can take my 30 out with its 30 round preban mags and have all the fun I want.
In some states the restrictions are worse. The 30 still usually flys under the radar.
And considering the 30 isn't that far under the power band of the 223 with nonball ammo it is a reasonable alternative for an urban use defense weapon.
So for locals that STILL have obnoxious AWB's in place, the 30 certainly has a long life in front of it.
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