Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
M1 30 carbine. War time short range battle rifle. Not much power not much bullet either. Great cartridge for up close and personal defense on the street. Other than that. Game wise taking. Rabbit comes to mind. 
Is 30 Carbine the Round of the Future?
- Thread starter Nathan
- Start date
- Status
bamaranger
New member
Nah.....but.....
The .30 Carbine round was oddly selected, sort of by default if you will, based on an old Winchester .32 SLR round. The .32 SLR was anemic, and the resultant .30 Carbine was not cutting edge even in its day, though it served its purpose well, if not just by the pressure of sheer numbers.
What the handy little M-1 carbine needs is a a better cartridge.. I have no idea what the pressure limits of the action are, but I wish that they'd seen fit to go the .351 SLR route, or .401. A modern version could be something like a souped up 10mm (10mm Maximum or 10MM Super?) RL Wilson talks about just such a cartridge in his Ruger book, describing a hot .40 based on a shortened and modified 45-70 case cut to fit and run through the early Ruger Carbine action. Such a hot .40 was said to exceed 30-30 energy. What about a magzine holding 10-20 of those in a 5.5 lb M1 carbine?
The .30 Carbine round was oddly selected, sort of by default if you will, based on an old Winchester .32 SLR round. The .32 SLR was anemic, and the resultant .30 Carbine was not cutting edge even in its day, though it served its purpose well, if not just by the pressure of sheer numbers.
What the handy little M-1 carbine needs is a a better cartridge.. I have no idea what the pressure limits of the action are, but I wish that they'd seen fit to go the .351 SLR route, or .401. A modern version could be something like a souped up 10mm (10mm Maximum or 10MM Super?) RL Wilson talks about just such a cartridge in his Ruger book, describing a hot .40 based on a shortened and modified 45-70 case cut to fit and run through the early Ruger Carbine action. Such a hot .40 was said to exceed 30-30 energy. What about a magzine holding 10-20 of those in a 5.5 lb M1 carbine?
Whether or not there was a deliberate thought process about a carbine being easier to train than a pistol is not one I'd ever come across, but it's clear the War Department was looking at creating a main battle rifle and a support troop carbine. Considering the distinct lack of effective pistol range I don't think that anyone seriously considered pistols as an effective support weapon.
There were so many Soldiers whose job wasn't fighting with a real rifle, but aren't in jobs where a pistol would be an acceptable substitute. Forward observers, postal clerks, vehicle crew members, people who were in the war business to do something other than Infantry. Now the trend towards a shorter rifle started in the Infantry with the M4, and caused the phase out of the longer M16.
Jimro
And what's wrong with that? It's been doing what it was designed to do, beat the crap out of being stuck in a jam with nothing but a pistol. You can hit anything you can see. Not much keeps breathing after one of these poked through an eye socket. Not a bad home defense weapon at all.
I wonder if someone makes a light that mounts on a bayonet socket for night or low light? I don't recall whether it even has a bayonet socket.
Last edited:
As it is with the firearms industry all things old are new again. Since I was talking about the .22 Spitfire aka 5.7mm Johnson I've been digging around a little on Google. Low and behold there is a big out there is a guy trying to make a living wildcatting the .30 carbine from 17-25 calibers, check out the Garin Sure Strike System.
Last edited:
The .300 Blackout is about 400fps faster than the .30 carbine with the 110gr bullet, and will handle heavier bullets at lower speeds, something the carbine is ill suited to doing.
PLUS the .300 Blackout uses the .223 head size case (.375"), so it is a drop in fit in standard AR rifles (the only needed change is the barrel).
The .30 carbine uses a smaller (.360") head size so a different bolt and possibly magazine mods would be needed to fit into an AR (along with new barrel).
Personally, I think 400fps difference is significant.
Model12Win
Moderator
.300 BO is FAR more capable than the ancient carbine round.
It is equal to or better in performance and accuracy to 7.62x39mm, but with subsonic loads it can be easily suppressed and this makes it perfect for an SBR.
Add to that the .300 BO can be used in ANY AR-15 pattern rifle, with the same magazines, is huge. Just swap the barrel.
The .30 carbine was good for 1940 when.
It is no longer 1940, and it is antiquated and obsolete tech.
The .300 BLK and AR weapons systems are light years ahead in every possible way imaginable.
It is equal to or better in performance and accuracy to 7.62x39mm, but with subsonic loads it can be easily suppressed and this makes it perfect for an SBR.
Add to that the .300 BO can be used in ANY AR-15 pattern rifle, with the same magazines, is huge. Just swap the barrel.
The .30 carbine was good for 1940 when.
It is no longer 1940, and it is antiquated and obsolete tech.
The .300 BLK and AR weapons systems are light years ahead in every possible way imaginable.
Jim Watson
New member
Our penchant for adding gadgets has made the original AR design common in variants as heavy as a good .308. Not many 5.5 lb autorifles out there.
Other armies issued submachine guns to their troops who needed something smaller than a "battle rifle." Of course We American Commoners are not readily able to do that.
Back when carbines were cheap and common - $20 from DCM, less than $100 from Ye Old Western Scrounger - there was a good deal of work done on wildcatting them. The Johnson Spitfire seems to be the only one much remembered.
A gunsmith converted one to .221 Fireball for his daughter. It had to be handloaded with blunt Bee and Zipper bullets to fit the magazine.
There was a big .375 bottleneck that the developer said would run with the .35 Remington.
One outfit tried to market a version that would shoot the .45 Win Mag. From what I read, it was fine with WW hardball but not much else.
Other armies issued submachine guns to their troops who needed something smaller than a "battle rifle." Of course We American Commoners are not readily able to do that.
Back when carbines were cheap and common - $20 from DCM, less than $100 from Ye Old Western Scrounger - there was a good deal of work done on wildcatting them. The Johnson Spitfire seems to be the only one much remembered.
A gunsmith converted one to .221 Fireball for his daughter. It had to be handloaded with blunt Bee and Zipper bullets to fit the magazine.
There was a big .375 bottleneck that the developer said would run with the .35 Remington.
One outfit tried to market a version that would shoot the .45 Win Mag. From what I read, it was fine with WW hardball but not much else.
Bill DeShivs
New member
Funny- the carbine round will still do everything it ever did-and in a very handy little rifle.
It's not the round of the future, nor is it obsolete.
It's not the round of the future, nor is it obsolete.
Well said.
Did anyone ever make and market a Chuck Heston Planet of the Apes carbine back in the day when they were plentiful and reasonable? I don't recall seeing one but if I had I probably would have bought one.
Did they even make a toy version or were they no longer politically correct by then?
A pause for the COZ
New member
emcon5 said:
Sorry but I have to disagree. Truth is your not going to find a form factor that can accomplish more roles than the 300 Black Out.
If you compare it to any specific choice. You can make the case that the other choice will perform slightly better. So why not choose the one that is a little better?
There are certain things that it is better at than others SBR using heavy bullets would be one that it excels at.
But if you care to really look at what you have.
Lets compare to a M1 carbine. It will do every thing the M1 will do. Better plus many thing it can not do. M1's are very limited in bullet choices.
Many have said why not just buy a 7.62x39 upper and be done with it??
I have both... I like em both. But the same thing happens. The 7.62x39 is good at what it does but is not good at all at the other things.
My 300 Black out can do 99% of what I can do with the 7.62x39 and do every thing it can not do. example, you cant load heavies in it. And it does not particularly like lighter loads than normal.
The 300 Black out shoots cast bullets better than any of them. Believe me I have tried. 300 Black can be made to shoot any 30 cal bullet. You cant do that with any thing else. Of all the options I have tried. it is unique in the shooting world.
I can do every thing needed from 22lr to just before my 308. When I get to that point out comes the 308.
I was one of the 1st to own the 300 Black out so I have tried it quite a bit. Best buy I have made.
To all dismissing the 30C as a pipsqueak: please indicate what part of your body you wouldn't mind being shot with one since it's so weak. Most negative conclusions regarding the 30C are based on the use of 110 FMJ ammo. A better bullet can change the complexion of the matter. I have tried some 86 grain JHPs in my 1944 Inland and got 2300 FPS. It would be interesting to see how violently these bullets would react in living tissue.
Cartridge of the future? No way. That will be a bottleneck case with a 22-25 caliber bullet at much higher velocities than the 30C can even dream about.
The 30C is what it is. A medium power rifle cartridge designed for small rifles. I read somewhere that in documented shootings it had a very high rate of one shot stops, like high 90s percentile.
Like every caliber, the 30C has its limitations. If I found myself going into harm's way armed with an M1 Carbine I would feel OK about it. I just hope nothing over 350 pounds comes at me, and anything more than 100 yards away gets ignored.
Cartridge of the future? No way. That will be a bottleneck case with a 22-25 caliber bullet at much higher velocities than the 30C can even dream about.
The 30C is what it is. A medium power rifle cartridge designed for small rifles. I read somewhere that in documented shootings it had a very high rate of one shot stops, like high 90s percentile.
Like every caliber, the 30C has its limitations. If I found myself going into harm's way armed with an M1 Carbine I would feel OK about it. I just hope nothing over 350 pounds comes at me, and anything more than 100 yards away gets ignored.
Your disdain for the caliber notwithstanding, like every caliber, it has a place. You may not appreciate it or understand it's strengths and weaknesses but many others do. Therefore, your pronouncement is more likely based upon ignorance rather than experience.
As a former US Army weapons instructor, I know that a weapon's usefulness is in large part a function of it's user's ability to effectively employ it. That's why, after practicing with my available weapons, even though I have an AR15 Middy, AR15 A4, Mini-14, 357mag levergun, 30-30 levergun, 300 Savage levergun, .308 levergun, M1A, M1 Garand, and 45 Colt levergun plus 357mag, 40S&W, 45acp, 45 Super, 45 Colt, and 10mm handguns at my disposal, my wife's choice for a superb HD weapon is a M1 Carbine loaded with 30rds of 110grn Speer JSPs.
As a HD weapon for shots under 30ft, it's compact size, light weight, low recoil, report, and flash, allow her to employ it effectively. Much more effectively than she can with any other rifle, including my AR middy with it's .223/5.56 rd. In fact, in second place is my Mini-14 even though it's report and flash are significantly larger and more disorienting inside a building.
So, I'd suggest that you voice your opinion as that, your opinion for your circumstances and leave others to make their own decisions based on their own circumstances.
Last edited:
Its popularity and longevity is due to the large number of M-1 Carbines manufactured and its fairly long service life. Sort of a one firearm round so to speak. Outside of its particular niche it has worked that well-in WWII they found a S&W N frame chambered on 30 Carbine was a Great Idea that Didn't Work.
44 AMP said:
No, it's not. I had a Whisper for a short time many years ago, at the same time my dad had a 30 Carbine. Handloading the 110gr with H110 the Whisper could only manage about 100-150 fps more than the carbine. Even now, Hodgdons website only has 200 fps difference.
- Status