Everyone should have at least one 9mm handgun and one 40sw handgun. That way you will have twice the possibility of being able to find and shoot ammo after the next presidential election. I sure would hate to be one of those folks who purchased a .22 handgun on the advice of those who loudly declare "Don't buy a large-caliber handgun until you have become proficient with a .22"
Improved 9mm rounds ?
- Thread starter chrisintexas
- Start date
Agreed. Though I can shoot 9mm and .45 more quickly and accurately than .40. All good, I like 9 and .45 best.
As for the OP, I'm not sure the argument was that 9mm is as good ballisticly as the .40. The argument is that modern 9mm hollow points are equally good (or bad, vs rifles) at stopping bad guys in real practice.
I like how standard pressure Federal HST 147 grain run in my 9mms. They do fine on paper too according to http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/.
I tend to prefer heavy for class bullet weights: 147 grain in 9mm, 180 grain in .40 and 230 grain in .45 ACP.
I just recently realized that I am loading 9mm for about the same price, if not cheaper, than I can buy .22 LR for. Sad state of affairs IMO.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Just go for 357 SIG. I've always found myself staring at boxes gathering dust on the shelf during shortages.
Really though, everyone knows about pellets, right? I bought like 10,000 for chump change in 2008. I ran into a guy I shot with while headed for the check-out and he clearly thought I was crazy. I wore out one cheap pneumatic pellet rifle, ran a few hundred through a springer I hated, and replaced it with a decent single pump pneumatic and still have a few pellets around.
I thought I read in someones post they were getting .5 second splits with 40SW and went down .1 second with 9mm. Looking back through I did not see that, so I must have read incorrectly.
One of the arguments here where it would be interesting to see the perspective of some real amateurs. I shoot a few thousand rounds a year and suspect I am at the low end here. (mm makes a difference for me. I'm not willing/able/interested in spending the extra time/money to get to where 40SW doesn't. Any additional shooting time will be with clays or rifles. Off hand is a huge difference. For the people I've shot with who carry but only go to the range maybe once a year for an hour or two, it is comical.
9 mm improved
dragline you better wake up alive most 9,s come out at 1100 or less.
Folks like you are shooting for fun, so are we, but mixed in are real combat
ammo, heavy recoil, fast velocity. If you faced me even if I used my 9, which
is a 115 grain HP at 1450. YOUR DEAD
My 40, a HK P7 , spits out a 150 nosler partition at 1425,YOUR DEAD.
Those 2 NY cops wrote books that are factual, from real shootings all over the USA, not like fake FBI crap.
Just in case we need them, better off to have them and not need them,
finish it GOOD LUCK
dragline you better wake up alive most 9,s come out at 1100 or less.
Folks like you are shooting for fun, so are we, but mixed in are real combat
ammo, heavy recoil, fast velocity. If you faced me even if I used my 9, which
is a 115 grain HP at 1450. YOUR DEAD
My 40, a HK P7 , spits out a 150 nosler partition at 1425,YOUR DEAD.
Those 2 NY cops wrote books that are factual, from real shootings all over the USA, not like fake FBI crap.
Just in case we need them, better off to have them and not need them,
finish it GOOD LUCK
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I generally use 124 gr HP 9 mm in the 1100 fps range. It is more than capable of giving the same results as either of your choices. It is also easier to get fast, accurate follow-up shots with. Just having those hot rounds in your pistol doesn't mean a thing. Fast, accurate rounds on target is what determines who lives and dies in a gun fight.
zincwarrior
New member
I'm still going to have to add the Speer GOld Dot, friend of law enforcement across the land to that mix.
Dragline45
New member
Uhhhhh, yeah..... Not even sure how to respond to whatever this is.
I don't know if many topics have been both overthought and underthought to the degree this one has.
If you begin with this intro to LuckyGunner's ballistic tests,they will give you an address to the web page where they show test results for 100+ loads in 9mm,40 S+W,and 45 ACP.
If you will do this research,you will gain a much better answer to your question than can be described on a forum page
https://youtu.be/0ZIYMTlf19A
I don't think it is accurate to say "there is no difference".I can throw rocks in a pond and see the difference.I think some of the high speed video reveals some rounds have more bounce and "wave action" in a gelblock than others.
I think that is "temporary cavity effect".Generally,at handgun velocities,temporary cavity does not produce much,if any,additional trauma,blood loss,etc.
Between the trauma surgeon,coroner,and measureable effects in gelblocks,I believe the charts,graphs and data will show similar results 9mm,40,and 45.
And most of the expanding bullets work well.
I think they will all kill about the same,subject to infinite variables.
My opinion believes with comparable bullet performance ,a 950 to 1100 fps 185 gr or more expanding 45 ACP bullet will provide more temporary distraction to a bad guy than a 115 or 124 gr 9mm bullet(CNS exception).
"Temporary" is hard to measure,and live target reaction is subjective and inconsistent.
Its hard to quantify as data,for data driven decision making.
But watching the gel blocks on high speed...
IMO,the temporary results will get a temporary effect on the bad guy
I would think he would feel more "punched" ...momentarily. Some of the time,with the more major cartridge/load.
It might only last a few seconds,but those might be important seconds.They are seconds the bad guy cannot shoot well,and they are seconds of blood loss.
I'm saying "Temporary cavity" may be "temporarily disabling",yet not show as permanent wound channel.
The tradeoff,between controllability and mag capacity,might be 2 hits of .45 vs 3 hits 9mm.And that makes a good argument.
If you begin with this intro to LuckyGunner's ballistic tests,they will give you an address to the web page where they show test results for 100+ loads in 9mm,40 S+W,and 45 ACP.
If you will do this research,you will gain a much better answer to your question than can be described on a forum page
https://youtu.be/0ZIYMTlf19A
I don't think it is accurate to say "there is no difference".I can throw rocks in a pond and see the difference.I think some of the high speed video reveals some rounds have more bounce and "wave action" in a gelblock than others.
I think that is "temporary cavity effect".Generally,at handgun velocities,temporary cavity does not produce much,if any,additional trauma,blood loss,etc.
Between the trauma surgeon,coroner,and measureable effects in gelblocks,I believe the charts,graphs and data will show similar results 9mm,40,and 45.
And most of the expanding bullets work well.
I think they will all kill about the same,subject to infinite variables.
My opinion believes with comparable bullet performance ,a 950 to 1100 fps 185 gr or more expanding 45 ACP bullet will provide more temporary distraction to a bad guy than a 115 or 124 gr 9mm bullet(CNS exception).
"Temporary" is hard to measure,and live target reaction is subjective and inconsistent.
Its hard to quantify as data,for data driven decision making.
But watching the gel blocks on high speed...
IMO,the temporary results will get a temporary effect on the bad guy
I would think he would feel more "punched" ...momentarily. Some of the time,with the more major cartridge/load.
It might only last a few seconds,but those might be important seconds.They are seconds the bad guy cannot shoot well,and they are seconds of blood loss.
I'm saying "Temporary cavity" may be "temporarily disabling",yet not show as permanent wound channel.
The tradeoff,between controllability and mag capacity,might be 2 hits of .45 vs 3 hits 9mm.And that makes a good argument.
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To the op:
You can go here and look at various tests and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/9mm Luger/9mm Luger.html
In the wake of the 1986 Miami shootout the FBI adopted a set of criteria for law enforcement ammo which involved making sure that the rounds managed between 12"-18" of penetration with expansion after passing through certain barriers. This was penetration into 10% ballistic gel.
Manufacturers did a great deal of work over the last few decades to improve ammo to make it meet the FBI requirements. At least when it comes to penetration and expansion. This means that there are a good many rounds available in a number of calibers. You can see some of those in the links above.
tipoc
You can go here and look at various tests and draw your own conclusions.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/9mm Luger/9mm Luger.html
In the wake of the 1986 Miami shootout the FBI adopted a set of criteria for law enforcement ammo which involved making sure that the rounds managed between 12"-18" of penetration with expansion after passing through certain barriers. This was penetration into 10% ballistic gel.
Manufacturers did a great deal of work over the last few decades to improve ammo to make it meet the FBI requirements. At least when it comes to penetration and expansion. This means that there are a good many rounds available in a number of calibers. You can see some of those in the links above.
tipoc
Improved 9mm rounds?
The CIA and Hornady improved both in its Critical Duty rounds. Check it out on Hornady and YouTube. The Hornady "Critical Duty" round met all 12 requirements of the CIA (Critical Defense met only 8 of 12 requirements.) If you need to go thru glass and bone before distortion, carry Critical Duty rounds.
The CIA and Hornady improved both in its Critical Duty rounds. Check it out on Hornady and YouTube. The Hornady "Critical Duty" round met all 12 requirements of the CIA (Critical Defense met only 8 of 12 requirements.) If you need to go thru glass and bone before distortion, carry Critical Duty rounds.
Kilibreaux
New member
The .40 S&W is loaded to police specification to approximate the .45 ACP, or about 350-380 lb-ft of KE. Interestingly, the 9mm is right there with the .40 S&W "police load" and the .45 ACP "mil-spec" load!
Now, when we disconnect the .40 S&W from it's "police load" limitation, it quite naturally outperforms the 9mm by approximately 100-150 lb-ft of KE, and does so with a larger diameter, heavier slug, which means MORE EFFECTIVE regardless of whatever BS is published by any agency....period.
The .40 S&W 135 grain can exceed 600+ lb-ft of KE, a number the 9mm can only DREAM of achieving because it has a smaller bore, and lighter bullet.
Even in FMJ trim, which would YOU rather have? A 9mm diameter 124 RN at 330 lb-ft of KE or a .40 S&W (10mm diameter) 165 grain slug at 484 lb-ft (without even trying)?
So WHATEVER the FBI is smoking and pumping is pure BS...the .40 S&W beats the 9mm on all levels and always will, just as the 10mm beats 'em both. And, just as the .45 SUPER beats the .40 S&W even though nobody builds a factory set-up gun to handle it because they're making money hand over fist as it is selling guns rated for the ubiquitous .45 ACP 350 lb-ft of KE load level!
Now, when we disconnect the .40 S&W from it's "police load" limitation, it quite naturally outperforms the 9mm by approximately 100-150 lb-ft of KE, and does so with a larger diameter, heavier slug, which means MORE EFFECTIVE regardless of whatever BS is published by any agency....period.
The .40 S&W 135 grain can exceed 600+ lb-ft of KE, a number the 9mm can only DREAM of achieving because it has a smaller bore, and lighter bullet.
Even in FMJ trim, which would YOU rather have? A 9mm diameter 124 RN at 330 lb-ft of KE or a .40 S&W (10mm diameter) 165 grain slug at 484 lb-ft (without even trying)?
So WHATEVER the FBI is smoking and pumping is pure BS...the .40 S&W beats the 9mm on all levels and always will, just as the 10mm beats 'em both. And, just as the .45 SUPER beats the .40 S&W even though nobody builds a factory set-up gun to handle it because they're making money hand over fist as it is selling guns rated for the ubiquitous .45 ACP 350 lb-ft of KE load level!
MandolinMan
New member
135 gr. is not an optimal bullet weight for the 40 S&W. Sectional density is much lower than the normal 165-180 grain bullets, usually resulting in poor penetration and erratic performance. The luckygunner tests bear this out.
I'm not aware of a 165-180gr. round that makes near 600+ ft.lbs.
Please don't think that I'm bashing the 40 S&W, I really do like the round. I'm just suggesting that there's a little more to selecting a cartridge than KE.
I think that these numbers are somewhat misleading.
Winchester white box 40 S&W 180gr.fmj 390 ft.lbs energy.
Winchester white box 9mm 115 gr.fmj 362 ft. lbs. energy
Granted both rounds can be pushed substantially faster.
Buffalo bore 9mm +P+ 124gr. FMJ that makes 465 ft.lbs.
Buffalo bore 40 S&W +P 180 gr. FMJ 484 ft.lbs ( I believe that's the round you reference above?)
Is the 40 better in terms of energy? Absolutely. My point is that the difference is not nearly as drastic as you make it out to be.
While KE is a really really poor indicator of performance his use of middle weigh bullets in both calibers is a far better comparison than cherry picking using the heaviest 40 bullet and the lightest 9mm.
However it does bring to bear a far more meaningful number the momentum of a 180gr 40 is over 25% more than the 115gr 9
If you can site proof of the greater effectiveness of .40 S&W over 9 mm in actual use, i.e., military, law enforcement, or civilian self-defense I would love to see it. The truth is you cannot, because all the credible data indicates there is little difference. You can claim anything you want. It happens regularly on the internet.
HST, according to the maker:
http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx
Heavy Clothed Gel
147 gr. 9mm 12.5'' / .69
180 gr. 40 S&W 12.5'' / .80
230 gr. 45 acp 13.5'' / .87
Turns out that 9mm was not improved in exclusion of larger calibers.
"apples to apples"
This is not exactly true. There is no "proof of the greater effectiveness" of the 9mm either. Nor "proof" that it is as effective "...in actual use, i.e. military, law enforcement...", etc. Nor proof that the 9mm is just as good as more powerful rounds.
It also depends on how you are using the word "effective".
There is proof that many very good self defense rounds that have been built to meet the FBI criteria for penetration and expansion do so. That is they meet the criteria which means similar performance in 10% ballistic gel.
There is also substantial proof that larger holes are, well larger. There is also proof that greater momentum and power make a difference. These things provide an edge to the more powerful rounds over those that are weaker.
If we build bullets that penetrate to similar depths and expand similarly then we can say that they are similarly effective in 10% ballistic gelatin. However the 40 S&W and the 45 acp will expand to larger diameters (bigger holes correlate to more damage in tissue) and they hit harder...which often helps and at a minimum provides a small edge.
This abstract truth makes little difference if the shooter is not capable of controlling the more powerful rounds and placing shots accurately.
The reasoning that the 9mm is just as effective because it can't be proven that it's not is a type of doublespeak. Cuz it also can't be proven that it is just as effective. Meanwhile we do know that more power also helps provided the shooter can control it.
We do know that 9mm is a very effective self defense round. In a good gun with a capable shooter it can be as effective as any other in practice for that shooter. If it stops the threat, it stops the threat. In that sense 45acp and .380 are equally effective.
But in the sense that a larger hole and a bullet that hits harder make a difference then a slight edge goes to them.
tipoc
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