Immigration

Immigration in any form has a huge cost, 300,000 a month, thats 3.6 million a year
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What sources do you have to support those figures? I am talking about cost of legal immigration. There have been studies that do say illegal immigration is costing due to free social services and depressed wages, but I have never read the numbers about legal immigration you reference.

Anyway, how can you track such numbers? There may be administrative costs involved in becoming a citizen, but who knows the true contribution in return from new citizens? You seem to be lumping normal immigration in with illegal immigration, and that does not compute.

Outsourcing also needs to be shut down, but thats another thread. I would like to see America become completely self sufficient.
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Fortress America? That horse has been out of the barn since circa 1939. No matter how hard you try to wish it away we are on a global business system, and that's simply not going to change.

Reality check:
1) Legal immigration is here to stay...no matter what you may wish.
2) We are involved in a global business economy.....no matter how much you want that to change.
 
longrifles

I am OK with
#2
#3
#5 the part using check points, but not the door to door part.
#6
#8
#10

Not OK
#1 way too extreme
#4 again, way to extreme.
#7 not sure.
#9 completely disagree.

It's time we realize that we have been invaded and our borders have been soiled.
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Not the wording I would use, but to each his own. Phrases like "borders have been soiled" brings on a different connotation. I am a real advocate of the fight against illegal immigration, but we need to keep in mind we are dealing with humans. To be up front, you and S832 express a theme that I don't like or agree with. So, with that said I will bow out unless it appears I can contribute other than just arguing useless points.
 
Lets see if I understand this...

First, we invoke emergency powers, neatly sidestepping that pesky thing called the US Constitution.

Then we build our own Iron Curtain all along the thousands of miles of our southern border.

Then we go house to house rooting out all these illegals, root and branch. And even though we are ignoring most of the Constitution, we will pay lip service to some small parts of it during these searches.

Then we ship them all back (assuming they all came from the same place?) Maybe we need to put them in camps while we figure this out. This leads us down a path we should not travel. We must not turn the US into a cross between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union in order to deal with the immigration issue. No matter how emotionally staisfying the idea might be, it will not work as planned, and is open to horriffic abuses if attempted. And those abuses will not all be directed at "illegals".

Remembert that once you give the govt a power, they will take it as far as they can. Although I do not physically resemble the run of the mill illegal immigrant, I still dread the day when US law allows me to be stopped and locked up if I fail to produce proof of my citizenship, and following your plans leads us too far in that direction for my taste. Good luck, but don't expect my support.
 
Immigrants do force wages down, its basic supply and demand - when you have a surplus supply the cost goes down.

As stated before the vast majority of these immigrants aren't wealthy so they fill the labor poll instead of having a even distribution among the income brackets.

I will give you an example, MS could pay 100,000 a year for American programmers, or they can pay 50,000 a year to a group of East Indians with visas to come here.

This forces down the pay of American programmers. The rich gain(M$), the poor-foreigners gain(East Indians) but the Americans lose.

I would rather violate the constitution and any American ideals then continue down this current path.

This country is going to be destroyed, continue living in bliss............ "Nero played the fiddle while Rome burned"..........maybe as this country starts to sink lower and lower people will wakeup, but by that time it won't make a difference............
 
You do realize...

I would rather violate the constitution and any American ideals then continue down this current path.
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This kind of thinking is what's really driving America downward more than immigration, you've also created a paradox by saying you want to preserve America but at the same time destroy the foundation of it. And by mere virtue of using the Microsoft example of outsourcing to India shows that it's not immigration that's the problem more so than our current tax and labor system. Everyone here wants a damn handout and not have to work for it. By the way, not everyone fresh off the boat is here to stay poor and work illegally. Remember what I said about the doctors, scientists, and engineers? They can't exactly work/go to school and get training without being legal citizens. I wasn't kidding when I said that they're from Asia either.


Epyon
 
I think Americans deserve those jobs, and should get those jobs. Not foreigners which are shipped in by a company to increase profit margin.

Those opportunities should be reserved for American bred citizens first, immigrants last.

I care more about Americans, then I care about those coming here - Americans should always come first.

If there is a factual lack of people, then immigration would be acceptable but currently the is no purpose for it, there is no gain for the vast majority of Americans, only - Loss of jobs, loss of pay, loss of land, loss of language - allot of loss around for not much gain.

The constitution should not be held as strictly as many people here want it do be, circumstances change and you can't use a document over 200 years old as a hard-and-fast rule no matter what the circumstances are.
 
The constitution should not be held as strictly as many people here want it do be, circumstances change and you can't use a document over 200 years old as a hard-and-fast rule no matter what the circumstances are.
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..........Sarah Brady, is that you?

The Constitution is not always automatically correct...after all, slavery used to be in there. But we have a process for changing it, and I think instead simply "sidestepping" it instead is a pretty scary road to start wandering down. At that point, I think I'd rather give Canada a shot. Higher crime, greater income disparity, and watching my rights get flushed down the toilet because a few dudes are afraid to press '1?' No thank you. My rights are one of the things I kinda dig about America...start making those a bit more negotiable, and suddenly European socialism doesn't look so bad.
 
The constitution is sidestepped all the time, it would require too much work to change it so another way is simply found.

The 2nd amendment is a great example, it says "shall not be infringed" but infringement is OK when needed - IE no RPG launchers.

I am not saying it should be the first thing done, but if there is no other option then it seems acceptable to me. Its not good but, if its needed its needed.

Gain verses Loss,
 
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Legal immigration is a strength of this country...not a weakness.
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Simply your wrong because we no longer live in the 1800's added population only hurts at this point we need a slow trickle of only the best coming. How many do you think it would take for America to be super strong.?


America is in decline while I understand many don't want to hear this but in my opinion it is true, we as a nation need to understand if we wish to remain a world power and regain our status in the world we must stop bleeding money. We have 700 military bases around the world, we nation build while our military dwindles in size (remember no one wants a draft), we give money to every nation that request it, we outsource, loss of manufacturing, auto companies will or soon be gone and the idea we can continue to absorb the worse of the third world is naive, or perhaps just ignorance.

Again Illegal immigration helps only the wealth in this country it adds burden to the poor and working class and in time hopefully a long time there will be fighting within our country on this issue. As many do not assimilate the fragmenting our country has begun so enjoy it will be a very difficult century for America.
 
Wingman, this is new for me, I am usually very passionately arguing against illegal immigration, but this thread seems to be more about the impact of legal immigration. There are reliable numbers that show the cost of illegal immigration, but it seems to be harder to get a total cost picture of legal immigration. There are reports out there but they are long and complicated to get all the bottom line numbers.

This is my present view on legal immigration:
It does appear we need to keep reasonable low immigration numbers. But with this said I still feel that an influx of legal immigrants adds to our economy in the long run. My observation has been that people that go to the trouble to become citizens usually contribute in positive ways...not the other way around.

Again Illegal immigration helps only the wealth in this country it adds burden to the poor and working class and in time hopefully a long time there will be fighting within our country on this issue.
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I agree with the illegal part.

Like I said this is new to me to be making this argument, but it certainly appears that illegal immigration presents much more of a problem than legal immigration. We have had recent examples in our state that illegal hiring can be stopped. We have new laws that punish the employers, and we have signs that this is working. When business owners are threatened with jail or big fines, then things change fast. Now we have many illegals leaving on their own to their own country.
 
I think Americans deserve those jobs, and should get those jobs. Not foreigners which are shipped in by a company to increase profit margin.

Those opportunities should be reserved for American bred citizens first, immigrants last.
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Really? That doesn't sound like capitalism. Also, if someone is a naturalized citizen vs. native born should they get second priority? I'd rather have an immigrant that knows what they're doing and works hard vs. a native that has no clue on how to do their job and wants to do minimum work. A company will go to a place that's cheaper and provides roughly the same quality or better on productivity. Businesses are like animals, when resources are tough they will go elsewhere. If an American company makes a TV vs. a Japanese company what will a consumer pick? Most likely the Japanese TV because they are better built. It's already been stated, a global economy is inevitable there's no avoiding it.


Epyon
 
Those opportunities should be reserved for American bred citizens first, immigrants last.
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So, I guess the rest of us all get in line behind American Indians....well if you say so.:rolleyes:
 
Epyon, if capitalism had its way everyone would be working at minimum wage, there would be no environmental regulations and the richest would literally dominate over everyone else.

Capitalism can not exist unrestricted. Ironically the creation of a government and implementation of laws is inherently capitalistic, a problem exist so the population creates a solution - government.


If you want most Americans to drop to the poverty level keep comparing us to the "rest of the world" because thats their standard of living. That is unacceptable to me as it is to most US citizens.
 
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If you want most Americans to drop to the poverty level keep comparing us to the "rest of the world" because thats their standard of living. That is unacceptable to me as it is to most US citizens.
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The rest of the world??

Lets see... lived 3 years in Japan. Didnt see one single "ghetto". Almost everyone had a car that was less than 5 years old. The quality of the food was about 10 times better than anything in the States. Water and electricity were cheaper than what Ive paid in the past 10 years in the states. Heating was pretty expensive though.:p

Lived in Korea and Germany as well. Just about the same thing I exp in Japan. IMHO based on my exp...these countrys had a "just as good" or slightly higher standard of living than I have experianced in the U.S. in the last 14 years since I moved outta Mom and Dads at the age of 18.

And thats just a smattering of the countrys Ive either lived in or visited. My opinion??? Were not getting worse, the rest of the world is just getting better.
 
By rest of the world, I mean all the countries that American jobs are going to or most immigrants are coming from.

You won't see MS importing European programmers as they charge the same as American programmers.
 
Now, as far as illegal immigration. We have an interesting development in our state. You know when they kept saying Americans won't work the jobs illegals work, well in our neighborhood the grounds upkeep by HOA was about all being done by illegal labor. Now that the new law took effect that punishes employers we are seeing local good Ole boys doing these jobs. American citizens will do these jobs when given a chance.
 
Driveby, I guess.

For the love of goodness, please understand that your government is not working for the American people. It is working for the interests of American business, who can make a greater profit without you help, thanks anyway.
 
The problem with economic systems...

is the very fact that people have feelings, like greed and apathy. Communism and lassie faire capitalism work on paper, but take into account human flaws, and the worst can show. Also, "the rest of the world" isn't all poor and run down, try traveling to other nations you'd be surprised.


Epyon
 
This guy does a much better job of outlining all the problems then I do.

http://www.frostywooldridge.com/

Look at his site without any pre-conceived ideas of what his message is.

Many parts of the world are poor and run down, the people coming here are mostly from those nations. They bring this whole country down with them, our standard of living averages with their standard of living which is a net loss for Americans.
 
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