Immigration
- Thread starter S832
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Laws sustain existence, freedom destroys it. Without laws you have death, the whole purpose of laws is to prevent destruction.
The goal is to create a balance where you give up some freedom for self preservation.
You want anarchy? Head over to the countless countries which have no laws or stable government, ironically all the people from those countries are attempting to come here.
The goal is to create a balance where you give up some freedom for self preservation.
You want anarchy? Head over to the countless countries which have no laws or stable government, ironically all the people from those countries are attempting to come here.
And what freedoms are you speaking of??? The right to bear arms? Freedom of speech? The right to wear levis and drink coca cola?
Or is this another attempt at the ol' "the world revolves around me" arguement. The arguement where an individual who doesnt like something believes they have the right to ban the majority from doing it, based simply on their personal preconcieved notions on life and how it "should" be.
I wish some of my fellow Americans would get it through their head...You do NOT have the right, to NOT be offended.
Free Speech is not a unrestricted right, neither is the Right to Bear Arms. Both have restrictions on them.
As I said self preservation is more important then freedom. Without laws you have no country, you have nothing.
Laws are created to sustain existence.
I care more about my self preservation then I do about others, its a basic act.
People will do what ever it takes to continue to survive or die trying, there will always be a loser, I simply see no reason why I and the rest of America should sit back at take the losing position without a fight.
I see no reason why I should give up something for someone else, why I should lower my standard of living, and allow further destruction the this countries environment and economy and gain nothing in return.
If someone punches you, you punch them back, all this immigration has been a giant gut punch to the average american - I think its time to respond, its simply a matter of self preservation.
As I said self preservation is more important then freedom. Without laws you have no country, you have nothing.
Laws are created to sustain existence.
I care more about my self preservation then I do about others, its a basic act.
People will do what ever it takes to continue to survive or die trying, there will always be a loser, I simply see no reason why I and the rest of America should sit back at take the losing position without a fight.
I see no reason why I should give up something for someone else, why I should lower my standard of living, and allow further destruction the this countries environment and economy and gain nothing in return.
If someone punches you, you punch them back, all this immigration has been a giant gut punch to the average american - I think its time to respond, its simply a matter of self preservation.
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Is it?
Is it?
Ever hear the phrase "Better to die on your feet then live on your knees"?
I think you are confusing the two issues, perservation of our nation (as it is, or as you would like it to be) and self preservation.
The whole concept of citizens bearing arms is based on self preservation, the preservation of personal freedom. Your freedom to resist aggression, to resist attack, to fight back is the first, and most important freedom anyone can have. Without it, all other freedoms are merely priveleges granted at the whim of your oppressor. Self preservation ahead of freedom is the principle that tells you to lie back and enjoy the rape. It tells you to let the criminal do as they will, take as they will, anything and everything, as long as they do not kill you. It is the doctrine of those who abhor violence at any cost, short of their own precious personal life. They won't lift a finger to stop evil from harming or killing you, as long as it doesn't kill them.
Once this philosophy takes a strong hold, two things happen. First, it can mutate into something even more subtle and dangerous, the belief that not fighting back (avoiding violence) is morally superior, and people should not resist, even to the point of losing their lives (die if you must, but never fight back) for the cause of moral superiority. And second, besides losing the will for resistance, they lose the physical capability for it. Too much of that leads to where England is today and where the German Jews were 70 years ago, before WWII. One should not morally fight back, and one cannot legally fight back, or posess the arms needed to do so. Your freedom is gone, and your survivial is in the hands of an uncaring if not hostile bureauacry claiming high ideals and moral purpose ("to protect and serve" for an example) but in reality caring little for anything beyond furthering their own aims.
There will be good, caring people in the system, but over time their numbers and effectivness will diminish. There are today many people who believe that the police (and all other govt agencies) are practically above the law, and serve only themselves and the people they employ. Actual benefit to individual citizens is a byproduct, and no longer their principal function, even though it is their publically stated purpose. This is not true everwhere, but it is true enough in some places that the belief is spreading.
When you choose self preservation before freedom, you are choosing slavery and submission to whatever life throws at you, provided you survive. And history teaches us that generally, you get neither.
The "self" preservation of our nation is another matter entirely. Ideas and curtural themes become entrenched in people, and are not easily, nor quickly changed. This remains true, no matter where those people move to. I have heard a great number of people complain, particularly in the Pacific Northwest about people from California. Not about the people as individuals, but about the fact that they, having left California, are trying to turn their new home states into another California!
And that is one of the big fears about immigration. Too many immigrants, particularly from one ethnic group or nation, and our country becomes transformed into a version of their old country. This is not good for us, and in the long run is not good for the immigrants either, as they wind up in a country only a little better (if that) than the one they left.
But beware of laws, as they have unintended consequences. Beware leaders who are, or can become extremists. Look very carefully at any proposed solution(s), as they can be double edged swords. Anything that can help us can, with a change of emphasis, be used to harm us. Study history with youir eyes and mind open and you will see that.
Is it?
Ever hear the phrase "Better to die on your feet then live on your knees"?
I think you are confusing the two issues, perservation of our nation (as it is, or as you would like it to be) and self preservation.
The whole concept of citizens bearing arms is based on self preservation, the preservation of personal freedom. Your freedom to resist aggression, to resist attack, to fight back is the first, and most important freedom anyone can have. Without it, all other freedoms are merely priveleges granted at the whim of your oppressor. Self preservation ahead of freedom is the principle that tells you to lie back and enjoy the rape. It tells you to let the criminal do as they will, take as they will, anything and everything, as long as they do not kill you. It is the doctrine of those who abhor violence at any cost, short of their own precious personal life. They won't lift a finger to stop evil from harming or killing you, as long as it doesn't kill them.
Once this philosophy takes a strong hold, two things happen. First, it can mutate into something even more subtle and dangerous, the belief that not fighting back (avoiding violence) is morally superior, and people should not resist, even to the point of losing their lives (die if you must, but never fight back) for the cause of moral superiority. And second, besides losing the will for resistance, they lose the physical capability for it. Too much of that leads to where England is today and where the German Jews were 70 years ago, before WWII. One should not morally fight back, and one cannot legally fight back, or posess the arms needed to do so. Your freedom is gone, and your survivial is in the hands of an uncaring if not hostile bureauacry claiming high ideals and moral purpose ("to protect and serve" for an example) but in reality caring little for anything beyond furthering their own aims.
There will be good, caring people in the system, but over time their numbers and effectivness will diminish. There are today many people who believe that the police (and all other govt agencies) are practically above the law, and serve only themselves and the people they employ. Actual benefit to individual citizens is a byproduct, and no longer their principal function, even though it is their publically stated purpose. This is not true everwhere, but it is true enough in some places that the belief is spreading.
When you choose self preservation before freedom, you are choosing slavery and submission to whatever life throws at you, provided you survive. And history teaches us that generally, you get neither.
The "self" preservation of our nation is another matter entirely. Ideas and curtural themes become entrenched in people, and are not easily, nor quickly changed. This remains true, no matter where those people move to. I have heard a great number of people complain, particularly in the Pacific Northwest about people from California. Not about the people as individuals, but about the fact that they, having left California, are trying to turn their new home states into another California!
And that is one of the big fears about immigration. Too many immigrants, particularly from one ethnic group or nation, and our country becomes transformed into a version of their old country. This is not good for us, and in the long run is not good for the immigrants either, as they wind up in a country only a little better (if that) than the one they left.
But beware of laws, as they have unintended consequences. Beware leaders who are, or can become extremists. Look very carefully at any proposed solution(s), as they can be double edged swords. Anything that can help us can, with a change of emphasis, be used to harm us. Study history with youir eyes and mind open and you will see that.
I can't exactly agree with you there...
I work in health care, a lot of our staff especially newer ones are from places like India, Vietnam, Japan, etc. Our university also has many graduates of Asian descent. Also, if you're afraid of America's culture changing because we have a more diverse population than before, go back to Europe, and if you really want to complain about America going back to its roots, give it back to the Native Americans. People that come here LEGALLY should have every right to stay regardless of what nation they're from. Without diversity, America wouldn't be as awesome as it is. Those that give up liberties for security deserve neither. (One of my favorite quotes.)
Epyon
I work in health care, a lot of our staff especially newer ones are from places like India, Vietnam, Japan, etc. Our university also has many graduates of Asian descent. Also, if you're afraid of America's culture changing because we have a more diverse population than before, go back to Europe, and if you really want to complain about America going back to its roots, give it back to the Native Americans. People that come here LEGALLY should have every right to stay regardless of what nation they're from. Without diversity, America wouldn't be as awesome as it is. Those that give up liberties for security deserve neither. (One of my favorite quotes.)
Epyon
MeekAndMild
New member
Hmm... So I suppose this is all gently leading to the point that we should all follow David Duke's lead and vote for Herr Barr? Tell me I'm wrong here. 
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LightningJoe
New member
If you want to import a large underclass (as we are from Mexico), you might want to make sure you have iron-clad protections for property (as we clearly don't) first. Otherwise, you're creating a large constituency for taking your money. And they will.
If you want a large, low-paid servant class, you'll get it. But two or three generations on, they're not going to be OK with you having more money than they do. America has a democracy with no real protection for private property. All they need is the numbers and they can take everything you've got.
If you want a large, low-paid servant class, you'll get it. But two or three generations on, they're not going to be OK with you having more money than they do. America has a democracy with no real protection for private property. All they need is the numbers and they can take everything you've got.
Yep, your wrong, illegal immigration is what I'm more concerned with and even in that case it is about the large numbers, no society can afford uncontrolled immigration, especially such an under educated people while at the same time we have over 50% minority drop out in our high schools we are in truth building a third world country of rich and poor.
Illegal immigration benefits the wealthy only and speaking of Texas that is the wealthy on both sides of the border, it is simply slave trade, low wages extreme long hours and all this subsidized by taxpayers, great scam for some but in time it will hurt all citizens.
When I was born we had half the population we currently do and the changes in freedom,problems and social values have been dramatic add another 300 million it will be chaos, simple things we now take for granted will be gone, car ownership, gun rights, etc. Much the of population coming from the third world countries will move to the left requesting and creating more laws. Think otherwise and it is naive, no racism folks just a plain truth.
Those of you anxious for open borders and believe that with all your heart hang a sign on your home stating, we will take in boarder free, room,food, medical care, school for your children and see how long you survive, is not America your home and do you wish to preserve it or rather simply throw it away and sell it off bit by bit as we are doing now. It all depends what you wish to leave your children,grandchildren.
JuanCarlos
New member
This tune is not new. People said the exact same about European immigration when my ancestors came over. Places like Ireland and Poland were the "worst places" back then.
Hardly universally true. Having lived in Phoenix and spent quite a bit of time around Latino communities it seems like in general the newer generations (particularly kids who've spent any significant amount of time here) work on learning the language...just like with previous European immigrants. As far as culture goes, same thing...they keep some of their Latino culture, but as time goes on the kids adopt more "American" habits.
Less true of illegal immigrants, of course...but then, what do you expect? That a bunch of people you refuse to let become Americans will give a crap about becoming "American" enough for you? Of course you're going to hold on to your old culture when la migra can come along any day and send you right back where you came from.
Again, hardly as simple as topic as most people would like to make it.
We didn't have 300+ million people in this country, they also never grew to be a very large segment of America. The immigration numbers were much less and subsequent population gains were much less as well.
It wasn't a take over like whats going on now. We literally have a Mexican invasion into America, its simply none military. Whats the best way to take over a country if you can't destroy it by force? Destroy it from the inside via immigration.
LightningJoe
New member
Which doesn't prove it's not true. And we're getting an awful lot of people from the same "worst place." They also have a pattern of not becoming assimilated after many generations.
Your ancestors may have left a "worst place" behind them, but these ones are bringing it with them.
JuanCarlos
New member
Really? Odd, this hasn't been my experience. I've not run into a single third-generation Latino immigrant that didn't, for instance, speak English. Most third-generation (or fourth-generation) Latino immigrants (actually, after two or three generations they really aren't immigrants anymore, but whatever) I've run into are as American as anybody...just browner. They're generally no less assimilated than the average third-generation eastern European immigrant I've run into.
LightningJoe
New member
I'm sure. This what I call the five percent phenomenon. It inhibits inter-racial understanding, but I doubt it'll ever enter any "dialogue on race."
The typical white person has experience with about the top 5% of blacks and hispanics whereas the typical black or hispanic person has experience with about the bottom 5% of white people.
This is why whites tend to attribute the social pathology statistics associated with minorities to discrimination, since the minority members they see seem like they should do very well. This is also why members of minorities tend to attribute their poor relative performance to discrimination, since they can't imagine how the whites they know could outperform them.
JuanCarlos
New member
I don't know, the crappy apartment complex I lived in in Phoenix was far from the top 5% of Latino immigrants. It was more the "people who work three jobs to barely get by" and "multiple families living in a two-bedroom apartment" type of place. Again, I'm talking about second/third generation immigrants (so, people who were actually born here...not immigrants at all, really). They're assimilated, just like second/third generation European immigrants.
If you want to bring up theories, I'll point you to confirmation bias. I think it might be a little more widely accepted than your "five percent phenomenon."
S832, back to the start of this thread.
I am usually on the side of complaining about the cost of illegal immigration, but when I read your opening statement I noticed it does not say "illegal", but just "immigration". There is a huge difference...for me at least. I do not see legal immigration as a threat. And I would challenge anyone to show facts that legal immigration has destroyed job markets, environment, etc.
So, for me at least I want to stay focused. Illegal immigration is not good, but legal immigration is good and should continue. Legal immigration is a strength of this country...not a weakness.
Then we get to who is going to make the determination of equal to us. Wrong direction. Illegal or legal immigrant ion is a legal status....not a character status.
I am usually on the side of complaining about the cost of illegal immigration, but when I read your opening statement I noticed it does not say "illegal", but just "immigration". There is a huge difference...for me at least. I do not see legal immigration as a threat. And I would challenge anyone to show facts that legal immigration has destroyed job markets, environment, etc.
So, for me at least I want to stay focused. Illegal immigration is not good, but legal immigration is good and should continue. Legal immigration is a strength of this country...not a weakness.
Then we get to who is going to make the determination of equal to us. Wrong direction. Illegal or legal immigrant ion is a legal status....not a character status.
JuanCarlos
New member
It's arguable that outsourcing and moving factories overseas is as much, if not more, of a threat than legal immigration.
Immigration in any form has a huge cost, 300,000 a month, thats 3.6 million a year, which is 1% of the population, over 10 years thats 36 million people, thats not counting their future offspring.(This isn't even counting the millions of illegal immigrants)
As stated before, most of the people coming don't have money, they simply force down wages and expand Americas population which should be going down. They negatively impact Americas social structure, laws and elections. America begins turning into the areas that the immigrants came from, which usually are complete ****.
It feels great to preach about acting as the worlds homeless shelter, it doesn't feel so great when you actually have to live in it.
If this level of immigration keeps up, America will be on a one way path to becoming a 3rd world country.
Of course the rich don't care, they simply move. The middle class worker is the one who's damaged, the one who losses a job - the one who gets his/her pay cut.
If I could give everyone a million dollars, and make it so no one would ever have to work again I would, but I don't have that power.
The best I can do is look out for myself, my family and consequently the country I live in. All I see in my future, my families and the average Americans future is a lowering standard of living, a re-write of many American laws and and rights we take for granted, destruction to Americas culture/identity and destruction of Americas environment/unique eco systems (look at cali, they have a huge water shortage so they start attempting to steal water from other areas, they wouldn't have the issue if it wasn't for the large number of legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico which has caused the states population to grow out of control) - not to mention an end to the English language, at least as the dominate language of this country.
I want a better future, not a worse one.
JuanCarlos:
Outsourcing also needs to be shut down, but thats another thread. I would like to see America become completely self sufficient.
As stated before, most of the people coming don't have money, they simply force down wages and expand Americas population which should be going down. They negatively impact Americas social structure, laws and elections. America begins turning into the areas that the immigrants came from, which usually are complete ****.
It feels great to preach about acting as the worlds homeless shelter, it doesn't feel so great when you actually have to live in it.
If this level of immigration keeps up, America will be on a one way path to becoming a 3rd world country.
Of course the rich don't care, they simply move. The middle class worker is the one who's damaged, the one who losses a job - the one who gets his/her pay cut.
If I could give everyone a million dollars, and make it so no one would ever have to work again I would, but I don't have that power.
The best I can do is look out for myself, my family and consequently the country I live in. All I see in my future, my families and the average Americans future is a lowering standard of living, a re-write of many American laws and and rights we take for granted, destruction to Americas culture/identity and destruction of Americas environment/unique eco systems (look at cali, they have a huge water shortage so they start attempting to steal water from other areas, they wouldn't have the issue if it wasn't for the large number of legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico which has caused the states population to grow out of control) - not to mention an end to the English language, at least as the dominate language of this country.
I want a better future, not a worse one.
JuanCarlos:
Outsourcing also needs to be shut down, but thats another thread. I would like to see America become completely self sufficient.
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