A wise man (Terry Tussey) told me "There's right and wrong, and there's smart and dumb." Racism is a loser on both counts. I am White and my ancestors came from Europe, but I was born here, making me a "Native American." I feel no loyalty to Europe or its people just because they look like me. My loyalty is to America, and my countrymen are the best from all over the world. That said- no nation can survive without controlling its borders. The crazy who wanted to blow up the Space Needle came in from Canada. I thing BOTH borders should be free fire zones for 200m and planted with bouncing Bettys. If you want in, do it legally. America became the greatest nation on Earth because we have the the best from all over the World: people to whom Freedom and Opportunity were more important than Life itself, not because we allowed ourselves to be inundated by a tsunami of barefoot illiterates.
Immigration Threads on TFL.
- Thread starter Al Norris
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Yes. Just because some of us do not like illegal immigration does not mean we also tolerate racism. Those that play that card will lose on both sides. And I do not want them to cast a shadow on me that says...against illegal equates with racism.
I am still a rebel at heart. If years ago someone had told me I could not sit down to eat at a restaurant because of the color of my skin, I am sure with my temperament, someone would have had to call the local LEO for help.
No more comments in this thread, I have said all I need to say.
jakeswensonmt
New member
Correct, Juan Carlos, but where people get lost is that they make it into a "cultural/ethnic" issue when it really is a nationalist issue.
Racism is unacceptable in our current political and social climate.
Nationalism is acceptable, although unfashionable to many, in our current political and social climate.
There are those who cannot tell the difference between nationalism and racism. If for example I were to say "we should stop the Mexicans at the border," many would complain that I am a racist. What they fail to recognize is that Mexico is a nation, not a race, and I am being declared racist for what is really a pro-American nationalist sentiment.
Those who favor illegal immigration often know that the above comment is inherently nationalist and not racist, but they nonetheless automatically scream "racist" because silencing American nationalist viewpoints furthers their political/social agenda.
One of the very few duties of the U.S. Federal government actually listed in the constitution is to protect the borders. The fact that this does not happen, because our politicians are more concerned with the so-called "rights" of foreign invaders than the best interests of American citizens, is an absolute outrage and a sure sign that our political sytem has become dysfunctional.
This forum provides a very rare safe haven for those who wish to express pro-American nationalist sentiments, and I wholeheartedly ask that it not be closed off to such discussions, even when they become heated.
DonR101395
New member
Jake,
I don't think I could have said it better +1 many times over.
I don't think I could have said it better +1 many times over.
UH1-D Rotorhead
Moderator
Jake is correct that these forums are a safe haven for expressing these pro-American nationalist views, but it can be a deadly minefield for other pro-America Americans who express a view quite the opposite; the number of personal attacks waged on proponents of fair and equitable immigration far outnumber the perceived, and typically false charge that to be pro immigration is tantamount to calling anti immigrant folk racists. It is these attacks that will get a thread shut down, and it is the rage and lack of civility, by some, that will get these threads shut down, and it is the poorly disguised and not so subtle racism that exists that will get this most important subject banned as a future topic of discussion. For those of you who wish to hunt and shoot down the undocumented, and expect a tax break....well, I'll stop right here.
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Sigh.... You should have stopped before you started.UH-1D Rotorhead said:
Care to name one post in this thread that stated that? Did I miss something?
This thread is not a discussion of the merits (or lack) of immigration reform. It is a discussion on how best to actually discuss an obviously divisive issue, without slinging mud at each other. And here you pop in and start slinging mud.
What's up with that, anyway?
Your post would have stood by itself, very well I might add, without that last quip. Instead, your post now provides the very example we are discussing.
UH1-D Rotorhead
Moderator
You are correct Antipitas, this thread does not have such a post...by making myself not clear, I accept the criticism...I was referring to a post in another similar thread that suggested a tax break bounty for shooting "illegals". My point was to bring out how far some have gone to drive home the point that "illegals" are less than human. Sorry for the confusion, and you may delete my post...I won't take offense.
P.S. I edited the post to make more clear what gets a thread in trouble.
Thanks,
Al
P.S. I edited the post to make more clear what gets a thread in trouble.
Thanks,
Al
Not so fast there!
The post stands as it was written. I have restored it to what it was. Just as your explanation will stand... In other words, this thread will not be edited (editing for spelling, excepted) if I have anything to say about it.
If you have to make a post, without thinking through the consequences of what you are posting, it will stand, glaring at posterity.
The post stands as it was written. I have restored it to what it was. Just as your explanation will stand... In other words, this thread will not be edited (editing for spelling, excepted) if I have anything to say about it.
If you have to make a post, without thinking through the consequences of what you are posting, it will stand, glaring at posterity.
UH1-D Rotorhead
Moderator
I have absolutely no problem with that...just trying to make things more clear and hopefully, more amicable and civil in these matters.
Gun-related.
The only proper way to begin this post is to recognize and thank Antipitas for doing a job that I have discovered through observation is tiring, frustrating, and often unpopular. Cheers to you for being among the rare few who has the patience to do what you do.
To the point now. Illegal immigration is an extremely volatile issue, as has been demonstrated here numorous times. It is also extremely emotional, as is also demonstrated with startling regularity. And unfortunately, no matter what is said in this thread, those two qualities ARE NOT going to go away. No matter what direction a conversation initially takes, there seems to be always one who cannot control their emotions on the issue (I have been guilty of this as much as any other).
What's going to solve the problem is keeping the forum rules in mind when posting, and it will take the posters, not the moderators, to do that. The most important of those is rule #1, both for the board and the L&P sub-group, which is that all posts MUST BE FIREARMS RELATED.
Yes, the issue has an effect on all of us, and yes it is a topic of debate that has stormed to the forefront of American politics and news media, but that does not change the fact that this is a firearms-oriented board.
If an illegal immigration thread is intiated that relates to firearms, such as illegal importation, immigrant gun-rights, or the effects of immigration on your local gun laws, the thread should stand. If not, it should be closed. The thread turnover rate for L&P is very high, and the volume of content for both members and moderators to sort through is also very high. By removing the threads that don't keep with the mission/orientation of the board, that content can be reduced, and the original philosiphy of a gun-related round table can be retained.
This is not to say that the issue is not important, or that it cannot be discussed WITHIN THE RULES OF THE BOARD. The point rather is that firearms-related immigration issues (of which there are plenty) should remain, and all other discussion on the issue should be done in a more appropriate medium, such as a general politics or immigration-specific forum.
Afterthought: As the boot was dropped on foul language, so it should be with racism. It has no purpose here or anywhere else, and does not serve to favor ANYONE'S image, especially that of intelligent and lawful firearms owners.
The only proper way to begin this post is to recognize and thank Antipitas for doing a job that I have discovered through observation is tiring, frustrating, and often unpopular. Cheers to you for being among the rare few who has the patience to do what you do.
To the point now. Illegal immigration is an extremely volatile issue, as has been demonstrated here numorous times. It is also extremely emotional, as is also demonstrated with startling regularity. And unfortunately, no matter what is said in this thread, those two qualities ARE NOT going to go away. No matter what direction a conversation initially takes, there seems to be always one who cannot control their emotions on the issue (I have been guilty of this as much as any other).
What's going to solve the problem is keeping the forum rules in mind when posting, and it will take the posters, not the moderators, to do that. The most important of those is rule #1, both for the board and the L&P sub-group, which is that all posts MUST BE FIREARMS RELATED.
Yes, the issue has an effect on all of us, and yes it is a topic of debate that has stormed to the forefront of American politics and news media, but that does not change the fact that this is a firearms-oriented board.
If an illegal immigration thread is intiated that relates to firearms, such as illegal importation, immigrant gun-rights, or the effects of immigration on your local gun laws, the thread should stand. If not, it should be closed. The thread turnover rate for L&P is very high, and the volume of content for both members and moderators to sort through is also very high. By removing the threads that don't keep with the mission/orientation of the board, that content can be reduced, and the original philosiphy of a gun-related round table can be retained.
This is not to say that the issue is not important, or that it cannot be discussed WITHIN THE RULES OF THE BOARD. The point rather is that firearms-related immigration issues (of which there are plenty) should remain, and all other discussion on the issue should be done in a more appropriate medium, such as a general politics or immigration-specific forum.
Afterthought: As the boot was dropped on foul language, so it should be with racism. It has no purpose here or anywhere else, and does not serve to favor ANYONE'S image, especially that of intelligent and lawful firearms owners.
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The Canuck
New member
I find this thead to be of particular interest to me, as have all the immigration threads. There is a possibility that I will (legally) immigrate to the US someday in the interests of my trade (welder - specifically GTAW, eventually). I do have ties to the US through my Grandmother, who was a Native American (Salish) and am planning on looking into my options for becoming a US Citizen.
While many of you will say that this is in regards to illegal immigrants, this does still affect those who are resident aliens as well. We look at these websites and try to divine what the attitude of the Citizens is towards "newcomers" in general. Of specific interest to me at this point is the "melting-pot" vs. "multi-culturism" argument. Up here in Canada we embraced the "multi-culturism" ideals and from what I can tell, they are in the throes of failure. We have a chasm in our country, there are people who have lived in Canada twenty years and still don't speak a word of English. We have had "honour killings" where a woman would be killed in a gruesome fashion merely because they married the wrong man. My concern is not the race or ethnicity of a person, but that there are people who come to my country because it has some quality that led them to uproot themselves, merely to begin trying to change it into the place they just left. I say that these people should just go back to where they came from if they want to live there. Let the ones who have come here to be here enjoy thier new home for what it is, not what somebody else wants it to be.
Same thing goes for the US. Should I come to the US, I won't be whining about how it ain't Canada. If I want health care, I'll buy a package or get benefits from my place of employment. If I want to watch hockey, I'll buy a ticket. If I want a gun, I'll get my butt down to the store with my required paper work and buy the damn thing. In the US I know of the Citizens don't get "hand-outs", so why should I expect different?
There, I said my piece.
While many of you will say that this is in regards to illegal immigrants, this does still affect those who are resident aliens as well. We look at these websites and try to divine what the attitude of the Citizens is towards "newcomers" in general. Of specific interest to me at this point is the "melting-pot" vs. "multi-culturism" argument. Up here in Canada we embraced the "multi-culturism" ideals and from what I can tell, they are in the throes of failure. We have a chasm in our country, there are people who have lived in Canada twenty years and still don't speak a word of English. We have had "honour killings" where a woman would be killed in a gruesome fashion merely because they married the wrong man. My concern is not the race or ethnicity of a person, but that there are people who come to my country because it has some quality that led them to uproot themselves, merely to begin trying to change it into the place they just left. I say that these people should just go back to where they came from if they want to live there. Let the ones who have come here to be here enjoy thier new home for what it is, not what somebody else wants it to be.
Same thing goes for the US. Should I come to the US, I won't be whining about how it ain't Canada. If I want health care, I'll buy a package or get benefits from my place of employment. If I want to watch hockey, I'll buy a ticket. If I want a gun, I'll get my butt down to the store with my required paper work and buy the damn thing. In the US I know of the Citizens don't get "hand-outs", so why should I expect different?
There, I said my piece.
Chris Phelps
New member
Ill throw in my two cents. Of the 46,289 members currently registered on this site, 99.8% of us can conduct ourselves in a calm and rational manner without letting topics such as this get out of hand. Why let the others ruin it for the rest of us? I say tighten down on the punishment for those who step out of line, and let the topics like this remain.
Ok, my fault. I do read rule #1 that all posts should be firearms related. But now that seems to be in conflict with what I read on the sticky at the top of legal & political. Again, just trying to understand and follow rules.
Maybe I could start a thread titled: "Illegal immigration and it's effects on the 9mm VS 45ACP controversy".....take it easy...I am just joking.
And yes I did read the rules when I signed on, but since then I just read the sticky's....again my fault.
Maybe I could start a thread titled: "Illegal immigration and it's effects on the 9mm VS 45ACP controversy".....take it easy...I am just joking.
And yes I did read the rules when I signed on, but since then I just read the sticky's....again my fault.
HEAR, HEAR!!!
In fact, there are but three races -- Negroid, Mongoloid, and Caucasoid. Mexicans are Caucasians. They are not Asiatic and thay are not Black and thus do not fit in either of the other catagories. They are, at best, an ethnicity from a certain nation state. That's all.
The entire debate is just silly.
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