Immigration Solution? (merged threads)
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America, we seem to have lost ourProblem is Borders!
The term Illegal alien is right up their with illegitamate babies in my opinion. The reason these people from the South are dying to get here is because they can make more than a living wage. Only problem is that the USA government moved in and set up a border then expected people to honor that border just because it was there.
If we had enforcable immigration laws? It would be different. However, just because our immigration system is unable to meet the need, I don't think we should condemn all the migrants to our criminal justice system. I think we can do better.
I am all for sending the free loaders and other criminals back where they came from.
Just remember we welcomed you white boys when you came over in your little boats a few hundred years ago. We even married some of your women. Now you're upset because a few million people are moving up from the South. Relax! Learn to share.
The term Illegal alien is right up their with illegitamate babies in my opinion. The reason these people from the South are dying to get here is because they can make more than a living wage. Only problem is that the USA government moved in and set up a border then expected people to honor that border just because it was there.
If we had enforcable immigration laws? It would be different. However, just because our immigration system is unable to meet the need, I don't think we should condemn all the migrants to our criminal justice system. I think we can do better.
I am all for sending the free loaders and other criminals back where they came from.
Just remember we welcomed you white boys when you came over in your little boats a few hundred years ago. We even married some of your women. Now you're upset because a few million people are moving up from the South. Relax! Learn to share.
Scott Conklin
New member
Okie, I've been doing my best to be a good boy around here but, really. Are you a Troll or are you that completely ignorant of the current issue, or are you here with an agenda? What you say and the elitist "tone" with which you say it are just so over the top it's actually laughable.
I feel that the best way to solve this is to take you rifle down to the border and set up camp with lots of ammo and a big sign "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again!" that would stop the problem from geting any worse.
But unfortunatly you cant do that . But if you can im taking a road trip.
But unfortunatly you cant do that . But if you can im taking a road trip.
Just stating my opinion.
Race?
I just pointed out the fact that lots of people have come to this Country because of what this Country has to offer.
No I'm not advocating giving anyone a free ride. I am advocating that people who want to work and fit into our culture should be welcomed.
And I don't think it's productive to blame the people from the South for our immigration and social system's failure.
Race?
I just pointed out the fact that lots of people have come to this Country because of what this Country has to offer.
No I'm not advocating giving anyone a free ride. I am advocating that people who want to work and fit into our culture should be welcomed.
And I don't think it's productive to blame the people from the South for our immigration and social system's failure.
Scott Conklin
New member
OK, so the foreigners from Mexico(people from the South are, say, Good Ol Boys from Ala-Freakin-bama...) should not be blamed for violating our laws and then manipulating our systems while ignoring our rules once they are here?
Can you please elaborate on this?
Can you please elaborate on this?
White people came here and improved upon a rather primitive situation.The flood that occurs today is coming from corrupt,third world nations that offer very little benefit of any kind.If anything,they come here to bleed the system.This is the start of Americas demise as a once great nation.You know its true......whether or not you accept the facts before your eyes is up to you.
ShowMeState1977
New member
So what do we do about this problem, besides yell and scream and write letters to our congressmen? I guess we could send cash to the Minuteman Project. I guess we could go to the anti-illegal rallies. Anything else?
NedreckSavant
New member
'relax, learn to share'
okie, that's funny stuff right there bud. Funny stuff. If this isn't a racial issue why aren't there more people of color in the minute men? Why aren't there any tax paying hispanic people helping? How many black guys you heard bitchin bout it? Do they not have just as much at stake? I'm still with okie on not blaming the migrants due to the system being broke. If it were any one of you over there wtf do you think you'd be doing right now? Hanging around in your ghost-town-to-be or walking towards the light? Okie, so many people forget we're all in this together, we're all brothers, all humans.
Te Anau, we may have improved upon things a little, but at what cost? Between living the life of milk and honey, sucking from the teat of a television, disconnected from most of the people around me, and a return to a more natural state...I'd just about rather put on a loincloth and grab my bow & arrows. Sure we have medicines and technology, but in doing so life has become somehow worth less. I want a life worth more, even if a few weaker fellows in the herd got 'darwined' off.
okie, that's funny stuff right there bud. Funny stuff. If this isn't a racial issue why aren't there more people of color in the minute men? Why aren't there any tax paying hispanic people helping? How many black guys you heard bitchin bout it? Do they not have just as much at stake? I'm still with okie on not blaming the migrants due to the system being broke. If it were any one of you over there wtf do you think you'd be doing right now? Hanging around in your ghost-town-to-be or walking towards the light? Okie, so many people forget we're all in this together, we're all brothers, all humans.
Te Anau, we may have improved upon things a little, but at what cost? Between living the life of milk and honey, sucking from the teat of a television, disconnected from most of the people around me, and a return to a more natural state...I'd just about rather put on a loincloth and grab my bow & arrows. Sure we have medicines and technology, but in doing so life has become somehow worth less. I want a life worth more, even if a few weaker fellows in the herd got 'darwined' off.
I think there are a lot of people who would disagree with this statement. NedreckSavant, I couldn't agree more with your last statement...very well put indeed.
It is the media (TV) that has lulled us to sleep and therefore has enabled this immigration problem to occur...we are victims of our own laziness.
I sure hope that something is done about the illegal immigrant situation...unless you live near Los Angeles (as I do) or some other Southwest metropolis, you really have not idea how 'bad' it is...
problem?
What's the problem? America has always accepted immigrants, often in huge numbers. The immigrant waves from Europe in the 1800s upset a lot of people then also. And they were huge, in relation to the US population at the time. Lots of people got here however they could, legal or otherwise.
OK, now that that PC cr*p is out of the way,
Perhaps the problem is that our current wave of immigrants (illeagals, primarily) are doing their best NOT to assimilate into US culture. We are allowing (some people insisting) our culture to be changed to accomodate them. Every other mass immigration from all the other countries, those people all learned to speak English, as best they could. They kept their ethnic language and culture primarily, a private matter. They spoke English in public, at work, in their dealing with government, and other citizens. Their children spoke the old country language seldom, and only at home, and most of their grandchildren spoke only a little of the old language, if any. They became Americans. Americans who kept their holidays, and festivals as ties to their old country, but lived in, and believed in, their new country.
This is not seen to be happening with the hispanic immigrants. I know there are individuals and families who are doing their best to become Americans like the rest of us, but what we see most often is people who are not.
What are we upset about? Are we really upset with these people coming here to be Americans? I don't think so, I think what we are upset about is these people coming here to make this country into Mexico. And the fact that for quite a while now, our governments, at all levels, has done a great deal to help them do it.
As a general rule, Americans don't like cheats (yes, there are exceptions). Illeagal immigrants are cheats. They cheat the leagal immigrants, and they cheat our society (as a group). They are actively aided by segments of our society, and our government, and, if reports are to be believed, by the Mexican government.
What is the solution? I don't know. Round 'em up and ship 'em back? Not likely to happen. Punish employers who hire them? Possible, but again, not likely. But if we do, we will do it in the worst way. We'll nail some farmer to the wall, for trying to get his crop picked, and the CEO of some big company will walk all the way to the bank.
How's this for an idea, How about we just ignore them. I mean completely. As if they don't even exist. No foodstamps, no welfare, no schooling, no drivers licence, no medical (beyond lifesaving), no nothing. So many people say that they are just here to work, ok, let 'em work. And pay. Cash on the barrelhead, for everything they need. And take taxes out of their wages just like everyone else. Don't punish people who hire illeagals, unless they treat them differently than the rest of us. If you hire illeagals and don't take taxes out of their wages, you go to jail. Period. No fines, JAIL.
I think if we could implement something like this, that the problem would take care of itself. Pretty quick the illeagals would see the benefits of either returning to Mexico, or becoming Americans like the rest of us, so they could get the benefits we have, since they are having to pay like the rest of us.
Just an idea, and a pretty unlikely one at that, but I can dream, can't I?
What's the problem? America has always accepted immigrants, often in huge numbers. The immigrant waves from Europe in the 1800s upset a lot of people then also. And they were huge, in relation to the US population at the time. Lots of people got here however they could, legal or otherwise.
OK, now that that PC cr*p is out of the way,
Perhaps the problem is that our current wave of immigrants (illeagals, primarily) are doing their best NOT to assimilate into US culture. We are allowing (some people insisting) our culture to be changed to accomodate them. Every other mass immigration from all the other countries, those people all learned to speak English, as best they could. They kept their ethnic language and culture primarily, a private matter. They spoke English in public, at work, in their dealing with government, and other citizens. Their children spoke the old country language seldom, and only at home, and most of their grandchildren spoke only a little of the old language, if any. They became Americans. Americans who kept their holidays, and festivals as ties to their old country, but lived in, and believed in, their new country.
This is not seen to be happening with the hispanic immigrants. I know there are individuals and families who are doing their best to become Americans like the rest of us, but what we see most often is people who are not.
What are we upset about? Are we really upset with these people coming here to be Americans? I don't think so, I think what we are upset about is these people coming here to make this country into Mexico. And the fact that for quite a while now, our governments, at all levels, has done a great deal to help them do it.
As a general rule, Americans don't like cheats (yes, there are exceptions). Illeagal immigrants are cheats. They cheat the leagal immigrants, and they cheat our society (as a group). They are actively aided by segments of our society, and our government, and, if reports are to be believed, by the Mexican government.
What is the solution? I don't know. Round 'em up and ship 'em back? Not likely to happen. Punish employers who hire them? Possible, but again, not likely. But if we do, we will do it in the worst way. We'll nail some farmer to the wall, for trying to get his crop picked, and the CEO of some big company will walk all the way to the bank.
How's this for an idea, How about we just ignore them. I mean completely. As if they don't even exist. No foodstamps, no welfare, no schooling, no drivers licence, no medical (beyond lifesaving), no nothing. So many people say that they are just here to work, ok, let 'em work. And pay. Cash on the barrelhead, for everything they need. And take taxes out of their wages just like everyone else. Don't punish people who hire illeagals, unless they treat them differently than the rest of us. If you hire illeagals and don't take taxes out of their wages, you go to jail. Period. No fines, JAIL.
I think if we could implement something like this, that the problem would take care of itself. Pretty quick the illeagals would see the benefits of either returning to Mexico, or becoming Americans like the rest of us, so they could get the benefits we have, since they are having to pay like the rest of us.
Just an idea, and a pretty unlikely one at that, but I can dream, can't I?
NedreckSavant
New member
.44, how old are you, if I may ask?
we dont all live in Aspen...
or Vail or wjerever.
and we dont all have the farming knowlege and land avail. either. some of us understand that cost on one end = cost X5 on the consu,ers end. you are dreaming if you think the Manf./ growers are gonna reduce our price and start being ethical. must be the alltitude. come down to earth, the air is thicker.
or Vail or wjerever.
and we dont all have the farming knowlege and land avail. either. some of us understand that cost on one end = cost X5 on the consu,ers end. you are dreaming if you think the Manf./ growers are gonna reduce our price and start being ethical. must be the alltitude. come down to earth, the air is thicker.
how come if a man says " i dont like unwed mothers pumping out babies, welfare generations after generation, unemployment hogs, drug dealers and crackheads and illiterates" people say "your racist"?
isnt the person who automaticaly thinks those things are geared towards one race the real racist?
now if i say "low paid, hard working, devoutly religious, eager to learn" who am i talking about?
i know who im not talking about.
isnt the person who automaticaly thinks those things are geared towards one race the real racist?
now if i say "low paid, hard working, devoutly religious, eager to learn" who am i talking about?
i know who im not talking about.
leadcounsel
Moderator
I'll wage into this one...
Clearly illegal immigration is a national problem and probably a threat to national security - weather directly due to our unsecured boarders or indirectly due to the slow erosion of our American work ethic, paying a fair wage, paying a fair price for goods, etc.
We have become accustomed to paying deflated prices for goods and that is BAD for our economy. But it is so currently because Americans CONSUME like glutenous hungry pigs. We get new useless SH*T all the time for dirt cheap because we CAN. I"m guilty too, but have tried to stop my consumption habits.
We are also accustomed to making fantastic wages for little work, just like all the celebrities! We all want the easy road. When I was young, not too long ago, I worked manual jobs for an honest wage. I bet even farther back our fathers and grandfathers worked hard manual jobs for an honest wage and earned respect. Contrast that with now -- Amercans WON'T work as garbage collectors, construction workers, agricultural workers, harvesters, etc. because it's "beneath" us and because Americans can't sustain our consumption habits on $5 per hour and no benefits.
Allowing the illegals and migrants to work for these suppressed wages is bad because it takes jobs away from Americans AND it deflates the pay for these valuable jobs. Are we REALLY getting the savings passed on to the consumer, or is some corporation just getting rich. Last I checked Safeway stock was doing alright.
The illegals are overwhelmingly poor, under-educated or uneducated, and non-english speaking, and bear larger than average families. How does this affect our economy, hospitals, social services and schools and the like? Without medical benefits, hospitals are forced to give free aid to the indigent (while they try to collect, it's impossible and patients cannot be turned away for emergency services). Schools are required to teach english courses in in english and spanish, thus taking valuable time away from the non-latino children. So, taxpayers are paying twice as much for half the services. All services are required to be printed in two languages, doubling the cost. Bottom line is that making provisions for these illegals only serves to harm Americans in the short and long run on many levels.
What do we get in return? Well, seems that my parents could afford vegetables 30 years ago and their parents 30 years before that, so I'm not particularly worried that I'll have to stop eating veggies, particularly given the scientific and machinery advancements we've made.
As far as the comment about service in the military... that's interesting. But doesn't a person have to be a US citizen before he can take the oath of a Soldier? I don't know if I like the idea of having 50% of our military being non-Americans, afterall. What if they decided that they didn't like America the way it is and wanted OPEN borders? That would be one bloodbath.
Clearly illegal immigration is a national problem and probably a threat to national security - weather directly due to our unsecured boarders or indirectly due to the slow erosion of our American work ethic, paying a fair wage, paying a fair price for goods, etc.
We have become accustomed to paying deflated prices for goods and that is BAD for our economy. But it is so currently because Americans CONSUME like glutenous hungry pigs. We get new useless SH*T all the time for dirt cheap because we CAN. I"m guilty too, but have tried to stop my consumption habits.
We are also accustomed to making fantastic wages for little work, just like all the celebrities! We all want the easy road. When I was young, not too long ago, I worked manual jobs for an honest wage. I bet even farther back our fathers and grandfathers worked hard manual jobs for an honest wage and earned respect. Contrast that with now -- Amercans WON'T work as garbage collectors, construction workers, agricultural workers, harvesters, etc. because it's "beneath" us and because Americans can't sustain our consumption habits on $5 per hour and no benefits.
Allowing the illegals and migrants to work for these suppressed wages is bad because it takes jobs away from Americans AND it deflates the pay for these valuable jobs. Are we REALLY getting the savings passed on to the consumer, or is some corporation just getting rich. Last I checked Safeway stock was doing alright.
The illegals are overwhelmingly poor, under-educated or uneducated, and non-english speaking, and bear larger than average families. How does this affect our economy, hospitals, social services and schools and the like? Without medical benefits, hospitals are forced to give free aid to the indigent (while they try to collect, it's impossible and patients cannot be turned away for emergency services). Schools are required to teach english courses in in english and spanish, thus taking valuable time away from the non-latino children. So, taxpayers are paying twice as much for half the services. All services are required to be printed in two languages, doubling the cost. Bottom line is that making provisions for these illegals only serves to harm Americans in the short and long run on many levels.
What do we get in return? Well, seems that my parents could afford vegetables 30 years ago and their parents 30 years before that, so I'm not particularly worried that I'll have to stop eating veggies, particularly given the scientific and machinery advancements we've made.
As far as the comment about service in the military... that's interesting. But doesn't a person have to be a US citizen before he can take the oath of a Soldier? I don't know if I like the idea of having 50% of our military being non-Americans, afterall. What if they decided that they didn't like America the way it is and wanted OPEN borders? That would be one bloodbath.
Who guards the guards?
The Roman Empire didn't fall until after Roman citizens generally found service in the Legions "beneath" them. After Rome filled her Legions with mercenaries (mostly Germans) Rome began to fall. There were, of course, others reasons for Rome's fall, political corruption among them. The USA and the Roman Empire are not parallel, but some common conclusions can be drawn.
You are entirely correct to be concerned about large numbers os non-citizens in our military. It is not a good idea. However, what about something like "labor battalions"? Not armed, not trained to warfare, but trained to work, and educated enough to get the job done.
I am tired of the oft repeated "$10 for a head of lettuce" or whatever, if we don't have the illegals pick them...we are going to have that soon enough, due to the cost of gas, no matter who picks them.
Not all Americans are well off financially, and not all the not so well off are sitting on their ass collecting welfare. The pampered children of the middle class certainly don't want to labor in the fields, and their parents money means they don't have to.
There are people out there, Americans, that will do the work, if the work is there. Illegals take the work, in many cases, driving others out. And sadly, too many American businesses jump at the chance to save a buck.
The Roman Empire didn't fall until after Roman citizens generally found service in the Legions "beneath" them. After Rome filled her Legions with mercenaries (mostly Germans) Rome began to fall. There were, of course, others reasons for Rome's fall, political corruption among them. The USA and the Roman Empire are not parallel, but some common conclusions can be drawn.
You are entirely correct to be concerned about large numbers os non-citizens in our military. It is not a good idea. However, what about something like "labor battalions"? Not armed, not trained to warfare, but trained to work, and educated enough to get the job done.
I am tired of the oft repeated "$10 for a head of lettuce" or whatever, if we don't have the illegals pick them...we are going to have that soon enough, due to the cost of gas, no matter who picks them.
Not all Americans are well off financially, and not all the not so well off are sitting on their ass collecting welfare. The pampered children of the middle class certainly don't want to labor in the fields, and their parents money means they don't have to.
There are people out there, Americans, that will do the work, if the work is there. Illegals take the work, in many cases, driving others out. And sadly, too many American businesses jump at the chance to save a buck.
"____Can you please elaborate on this?__"
Our laws are only as good as their enforcement. Laws that are not or cannot be enforced are impractical and unrealistic. Our immigration laws aren't enforcable and that is our problem. Blaming illiterate, hungry people for our own inability to enforce our laws is not going to solve our immigration problem.
NedreckSavant,
I'm not laughing because I see a very nasty situation developing with our illegal alien population. I hear some people saying that, if our government doesn't do something? Then we the people need to. I hear people citing the race card as the main issue. I don't think that's a good thing. So I'm not going to support those types of ideas.
What I will support is a reasoned approach to solving the problem. Hopefully all these people that are negatively affected by this problem will communicate with their legislators.
These illegal aliens are not all Mexican. Many that I have met and worked with are from Central and South America as well as the Island Nations. Sure there are some bad apples coming accross our border but for the most part these people from the South are just like the rest of us.
Our laws are only as good as their enforcement. Laws that are not or cannot be enforced are impractical and unrealistic. Our immigration laws aren't enforcable and that is our problem. Blaming illiterate, hungry people for our own inability to enforce our laws is not going to solve our immigration problem.
NedreckSavant,
I'm not laughing because I see a very nasty situation developing with our illegal alien population. I hear some people saying that, if our government doesn't do something? Then we the people need to. I hear people citing the race card as the main issue. I don't think that's a good thing. So I'm not going to support those types of ideas.
What I will support is a reasoned approach to solving the problem. Hopefully all these people that are negatively affected by this problem will communicate with their legislators.
These illegal aliens are not all Mexican. Many that I have met and worked with are from Central and South America as well as the Island Nations. Sure there are some bad apples coming accross our border but for the most part these people from the South are just like the rest of us.
the system will correct itself. either by force (de-naturalization, forced de-immigration, constructed isolationism) or nature.
then the already ever broadning gap between the haves and have nots (100K+ a year vs. 25K- per year) will cut into high gear and ythe ever growing poor will politcaly rise up and support the far left wing liberal/ socialist agenda. America will fall deeper into the welfare state and you will see permenant effects ...
Food Riots
boarder walls
gas rationing
massive homelessness
socialized medicine
legalized drugs (to quiet the masses)
militarized police presence in the border states
national ID requirments (papers please).
and , you guessed it...
what goes along w/ the liberal social agenda?
massive restrictive gun control.
then the already ever broadning gap between the haves and have nots (100K+ a year vs. 25K- per year) will cut into high gear and ythe ever growing poor will politcaly rise up and support the far left wing liberal/ socialist agenda. America will fall deeper into the welfare state and you will see permenant effects ...
Food Riots
boarder walls
gas rationing
massive homelessness
socialized medicine
legalized drugs (to quiet the masses)
militarized police presence in the border states
national ID requirments (papers please).
and , you guessed it...
what goes along w/ the liberal social agenda?
massive restrictive gun control.
Perhaps you could share that with some Native Americans (the offspring of those that the white people didn't massacre). Their view is quite a bit different that yours.
In my experience (living most of my life in New York City, where there's a small immigrant population), this is just not true. I've worked with a lot of people fresh off the boat, who spoke no English, but worked very hard at learning the language, and were actually quite skilled at communicating without any language at all. I'm also sure there are a lot of Hispanic children out there who can write and spell a lot better than many of the adults on this board!
Okiejack, reasoned thought is not something that's being used on this issue, on this site. Illegal immigration has suddenly become the number one dire emergency in this nation , all of a sudden.
If you attempt reason, you're immediatel labeled a troll, accused of playing race cards, hate cards, and un-American.
I wish it was different.
- Status