I'm not afraid of terrorists.

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GoSlash27

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I never have been.
Back when I was in the service during Desert Shield/Storm, we were all instructed about how to minimize the terrorist threat because the higher-ups believed that we were a target. Even then, I was not afraid of the terrorist threat.
Now they crash a few airliners and knock down some buildings and everybody freaks out.
Not to make light of the loss our country suffered on that day, but it simply didn't present a threat to a man living in East Podunk, Iowa. So I was deeply hurt and angered, but I wasn't afraid.
Even with the spectre of nuclear terrorism staring us in the face (in truth, it has been for the last decade) I'm not frightened.
I was never scared by terrorism because they have limited means and my family is pretty far down the food chain.

I'll tell you what frightens me: Totalitarianism. It frightens me that my government may be listening in on my telephone conversations and internet communications without a warrant. It frightens me that they could show up any minute and drag me out the door and make me disappear. No charges, no chance to argue my case in court. It frightens me that they might torture me for information I don't have. It frightens me that my government has been disseminating propaganda in the press. It frightens me when people tell me that I should publicly support my president (as if we're living in North Korea or sumpthin'). It frightens me that when somebody asked our president if these were the 'end times'....it took him so long to answer and that he believes he was 'chosen by God' to lead us in this time of peril.
It frightens me that our government can break the law and violate my rights without reprisal.
It really frightens me that this sort of thing goes on in America. Not only goes on, but is actually supported by freedom loving Americans.

Terrorists aren't a threat to me. My government is.
 
Alcoa...

Implying that my fears are unjustified. Exactly which charge leveled above do you dispute? I'm keen to hear something to make me breathe easier.
 
It frightens me that my government may be listening in on my telephone conversations and internet communications without a warrant.
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Please post some cases where law abiding citizens like yourself were wiretapped by the goverment. Just a few will do.

It frightens me that they could show up any minute and drag me out the door and make me disappear. No charges, no chance to argue my case in court
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Please post some cases where law abiding citizens like yourself were dragged out the door and made to disappear, and then never had a chance to argue your case in court.

It frightens me that they might torture me for information I don't have
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Please post some cases where law abiding citizens like yourself were tortured for information.

It really frightens me that this sort of thing goes on in America
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Well now's your chance, go ahead, lay all them facts out in the open so we can support you in your time of need.

Please try to keep it to documented facts. please, no garbled radio transmissions or liberal presses please.

kenny b
 
Well now's your chance, go ahead, lay all them facts out in the open so we can support you in your time of need.
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If all these things can be done without court orders and in secret (no lawyers), then just exactly where would he find these facts?
 
Interesting you say this. I have never been afraid of terrorists either.

Then again, I drive on I-95 in South Florida every day.

I think it's mostly hype to get oil and control of the public.
 
My fear of terrorism isn't loss of life or limb by myself or my family, it is the effect it could have on our national economy.

GoSlash if you want to sit around dreaming up conspiracies you can work yourself up into a lather. Your post reminds me of a radio guy who used to broadcast out of Florida, Chuck Harder. Anyway, he did a syndicated radio show during the BC years. He stewed about all sorts of "the government is coming" nonsense based largely on government policies. Remember the "black helicopters", the Rothchilds and Bildibergers(sp), the tax system is voluntary, etc., there were several other "issues" I can't remember now.

While I never figured out if his show was simply a way to make money (begging for donations) or if Chuck actually believed the silly things he espoused he did manage to convince some inclined to believe such propaganda. I am sure you can find a plethora of books and websites which will help you find all sorts of scarrrrry stuff you are subject to.
 
Please post some cases where law abiding citizens like yourself were wiretapped by the goverment. Just a few will do.
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Well lessee. There's the fact that NSA has been intercepting international communications from certain countries to America without a warrant for pushing a year now. You have heard about this, right? Do you suppose that all of the recipients were lawbreakers?
What about monitoring protest groups? None of the charges have even been disputed. Are protesters breaking the law?
Even now, are there things you're afraid to say online for fear that 'big brother' is watching? I'll admit that I find myself clamming up about some subjects.

Please post some cases where law abiding citizens like yourself were dragged out the door and made to disappear, and then never had a chance to argue your case in court.
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How 'bout Jose Padilla? He was never charged with anything, merely classified as an 'enemy combatant' and made to disappear. Yes, I'm law-abiding, but is that really any protection when habeas corpus ceases to apply? Has the Federal government ever made a mistake before?

Please post some cases where law abiding citizens like yourself were tortured for information.
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Well I wouldn't know, now would I? If I were to be classified as an 'enemy combatant' they have tortured and killed them in error before. Even as we speak there are 2 detainees in Gitmo that the Federal government themselves acknowledge were rounded up in error.

Do you really doubt the charge that this Federal government has no regard for the BoR? I know the standard response is "if you abide by the law then you have nothing to fear", but I don't believe that.
Don't you believe that if our government is violating the Constitution there should be a redress of grievances?

Heh. I've never met a more pro-Fed group of "conservatives" in my life.
 
On 9/11/01 I was on the road working in the office park near the Meadowlands where the NY Giants play, only a few miles away from NYC across the river in NJ. When the 9/11 attacks started instead of going back to the office me and a few co-worker went to jersey city near the ferry crossing to the Statute of Liberty (the shut down liberty park for almost 2 years after 9/11). 99% of America watched it on TV. I and the 1% of america unfortunately watched the towers fall in real life. Unless you lived in the NY area you have no idea how big those buildings are (the only exception is the Sears Tower in Chicago) you can see them for miles, and something like 50,000 people worked in there. And how did the decided to attack us on 9/11??? The hijacked planes with innocent men, women, and children on board and crashed them into there targets. You know why I fear them, because they are nuts, have no common sense, and they want ALL AMERICANS TO DIE (Even the ones in Iowa). Problem with these radical terrorists is they will do anything. MAD kept the Cold War cold, but Al Qadea has no problem spreading the virus to kill people in the US that would eventually spread across the world and back to the middle east, Or setting off a Nuke in America and us Nuking them back, because these wackcos think Allah will protect them. Some Muslims are not as nuts, but these Radical Islamic terrorist need to die by the boatload. Because your a non-Muslim and American they want you and yours dead, it is plan and simple as that.

I have seen transit cops put chalk marks on the tread of tires on cars parked in and around train stations in NJ right after 9/11. 3 Chalk marks and your tags got checked and they contacted you. I got a call because I left my car parked for 3 days near a train station, since I took off for a week to Volunteer driving a box truck (The only plus of keeping my teamsters card from an old delivery job) back and forth thru the Holland Tunnel. Do I feel my right are being violated when the check my tags...No, because it served a purpose, they thought I was a possible 9/11 victim. Do I feel violated when I get my vehicle search driving thru a Tunnel or a bridge in NYC during a high security alert...no because it serves a purpose, they are looking for a possible bomb. Wiring tapping in the US??? Well what exactly are you talking about on the phone that you don't want to have the Feds listen to??? Honestly the Feds don't care. I want the Feds to have full authority to listen in on any suspected foreign terrorist in America talking about a possible attack. For every US citizen who owns a phone line (landline or cellular) a court order is needed before they can wiretap, that is the way it was before 9/11 and after. If your not a US citizen IMHO this should not apply, and those non-court ordered wire taps Bush was involved in where mostly foreigners (Clinton did the same thing to a US citizen, in the FBI double agent case, but apparently no one cared then). The process needs to be sped up in the case of a possible foreign terrorist act, all others case the judges will "fine tooth comb" the warrant to wiretap as usual.

Honestly outside of NYC and DC, people have forgotten
 
"Now they crash a few airliners and knock down some buildings and everybody freaks out."

Everybody? Now there's a sweeping generalization.

And as far as freaking out goes, actually things seem to be rather calm compared to the early days of the cold war. Let's see, they taught us hide under our desks at school in case the Russians dropped the big one. They stockpiled supplies in the basement and had us practice huddling in the halls in case we survived the initial blast. We took classes in how to construct bomb shelters, stock them and calculate when it would be safe to come out. (Living near DC the answer is never. :) ) Ha, and nobody I know of in suburbuia builds bomb shelters anymore. Yep, much calmer in very many ways.

John
 
How 'bout Jose Padilla? He was never charged with anything, merely classified as an 'enemy combatant'
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Oh you mean "Abdullah al Muhajir", yes a convicted felon with a rap sheet longer then the coran itself, a gang banger from chicago, a real law abiding citizen like the rest of us. But non the less an American citizen.

I commend you, a great example. Maybe you could name a law abiding one now.

kenny b
 
kenny,
So are you telling me the rules don't apply because he's a convicted felon? Funny, I don't remember that being the way it's done in America.
No matter how you cut it, that's your answer, isn't it? "If you obey the law, you have nothing to worry about."
As I said, I don't find that very reassuring.
Suppose just for a second that they came after you completely accidentally. How on earth does your innocence protect you when you can't get your day in court?

Know what I think it is? I think you're biased. I think that if Clinton pulled a stunt like this you'd be screaming for his blood. But since it's Bush that makes it all a-ok. After all, it's a Republican and a Republican would *never* lie, cheat, or steal to get what he wants.
I think you've confused your alleigance with your party and elected officials with your duty to your fellow Americans.
That's what I think.
I think I want some reassurance from somebody a little more rational.
 
FYI--The Patriot Act that was passed after 9/11 DOES indeed give the government the power to use wire-taps WITHOUT a court order!
 
Where are you on the food chain?

Ok - I'll play - my daughter went to Europe to study in Lyon, France. She had to take a train back from Lyon to Paris for her return flight.

She took the train on Saturday X. On Saturday X + one week, the train was blown up.

When my kid graduated from college, at the ceremony they gave a posthumous degree to a fireman who attended her school and didn't make it out of the WTC. They gave it to his wife and kids - we all cried.

My father and I (at one time) worked near the WTC location.

However, I do agree that we can easily lose our basic rights. I also agree that the current move towards extreme right wing conservatism (happily agreed to by our president) is a threat to much of the BOR. I've also stated that many in the gun world are quite fine with that as long as they get a gun. Free speech, separation of church and state, searches and taps, meddling with medical care for the terminally ill, sexuality, etc. are all fair game for folks who would lead us into an American Taliban. Fortunately, some conservatives are true to basic freedoms and resist this. Except for the gun issue, many liberals also are true to our basic rights. Some are too extreme in some dimensions, though.
 
I'm keen to hear something to make me breathe easier.
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"It's for the children." No, strike that...

"It takes a village." Nope, probably not this one.

"It's for the global war on extremism" (formally known as the War on Terror).


Pick the catch phrase you like, repeat it out loud 1000 times. You'll feel better.
 
goslash, it sounds like you have quite a few fears. The way you describe 911 is selfish. I am glad I don't think the way do.
 
Selfish? How is protecting the BoR selfish?
Are you telling me that if a gaggle of terrorists bought SKSs at a gun show in Memphis and took out a school in Philadelphia you'd be okay with the Federal government violating the 2nd Amendment?
No?

So why are you so unconcerned when they do the same thing to the 1st, the 4th, the 5th, and the 6th?
 
It frightens me that my government may be listening in on my telephone conversations and internet communications without a warrant.
Click to expand...
Well lessee. There's the fact that NSA has been intercepting international communications from certain countries to America without a warrant for pushing a year now
Click to expand...
Know what I think it is? I think you're biased. I think that if Clinton pulled a stunt like this you'd be screaming for his blood. But since it's Bush that makes it all a-ok. After all, it's a Republican and a Republican would *never* lie, cheat, or steal to get what he wants.
I think you've confused your alleigance with your party and elected officials with your duty to your fellow Americans
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It started way before Bush .These programs were started under the Clinton administration and they didn't even try to pass it off as only communications involving foriegners suspected of terrorism connections.

http://home.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html

http://www.howstuffworks.com/carnivore.htm

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9595_22-524353.html
 
GS27-
FWIW, I agree with you, for the most part.

When we divorce ourselves from the emotional jingoism, what can we state as fact?
- Fact: 3k+ Americans died on 9-11 due to a terrorist attack.

- Fact: The Bill of Rights has been significantly eroded in the wake of those attacks.

- Fact: Your fears mirror those of men like Jefferson, Hamilton, Washington, Coxe, Adams and, more recently, Reagan. If that's "tin foil hat paranoia", pass me the roll.

- Fact: Padilla was a convicted felon who was jailed and sequestered under secret charges in a Star Chamber action. Had he not been a convicted felon (with, btw, a Mideastern name) another excuse would be forthcoming. After all, Randy Weaver was a "White Supremicist" and David Koresh a Baby Raper. Due Process means Due Process only for those like "me". :rolleyes:

- Fact: Another person giving Direct Aid and Comfort to the enemy was Sami Al Arian. The Star Chamber attempt failed and he was tried in open Court in accordance with the Bill of Rights. He was allowed to face his accusers and mount a defense. From Wikipedia, "Of all the 51 charges against the four men, not one was judged as guilty. Al-Arian, however, remains in custody pending a decision on whether to retry him on the deadlocked charges."

- Fact: Those who disagree with you use identical logic and argument as the Brady Center and VPC. Only the Amendments argued to be "out of date given the War on [Fill in the Blank]" are different.

I think the question on the floor is who's carrying the real paranoia around? ;)
Rich


ps: Thank you for your service to this nation...I wonder if anyone noticed that?
 
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