I was open carrying at Wal-Mart, and....

Status
Not open for further replies.
In an open carry state is it assumed that the guy with the holstered pistol is always qualified legally(no felonies,etc.)to be walking around so armed? I see this question as an issue concerning cops and civilians. If the cop does not ask and check, then he has no information. When he does ask and check, many are offended.

There are areas in the cities of New Orleans, Baton Rouge, Jackson(ms), Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio that are so bad that the open carrier is likely to be mugged/killed because others wanted his gun. Of course open carrying is illegal in Texas and Miss. I chose these cities because I am familiar with them.

Nogo
 
Is this thread about Walmart employees reactions, not knowing the laws and not knowing the Walmart Corp policy that allows him to carry in Walmart if it's legal in his state ?

or ,

Is it about sheep and their reaction to seeing guns ?

or

Is it about conceal vs open carry ?

Seems all the bases are being covered in this one thread. Just wondering, maybe there should have been 4-5 different threads on specific areas and discussions....
 
nogo said:
In an open carry state is it assumed that the guy with the holstered pistol is always qualified legally(no felonies,etc.)to be walking around so armed? I see this question as an issue concerning cops and civilians. If the cop does not ask and check, then he has no information. When he does ask and check, many are offended.

If a person walks by a cop, and that person is wearing a rolex watch, and the cop notices, what should happen? Should the cop stop that person and ask them to prove they are in legal possession of that watch? Or maybe a silver or gold necklace? A lawfully carried firearm is no different. In order for the police to officially detain a person and check the "legality" of the firearm that they are lawfully carrying, including a background check of the person, or the serial number of the firearm (to check if stolen), they must have reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) of a RELATED crime being committed. Absent RAS, the police have no legal authority to detain a person simply because they are LAWFULLY carrying a firearm. A mere 911 call reporting a MWAG is not enough to establish RAS, even if the person expresses fear over the gun by itself, absent any threatening behavior by the carrier of the gun.

A couple of good resources that illustrate this principle are State v. Casad in Washington:

http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile;id=9

and this excellent article published in Police Chief magazine, which, you will notice, is written by a Massachusetts lawyer!

http://forum.nwcdl.org/index.php?action=downloads;sa=downfile;id=45
 
NavyLT said:
If a person walks by a cop, and that person is wearing a rolex watch, and the cop notices, what should happen? Should the cop stop that person and ask them to prove they are in legal possession of that watch? Or maybe a silver or gold necklace? A lawfully carried firearm is no different.

Yeah, right, a lot of people have been killed by Rolex watches or gold necklaces.

The difficulty lies in the absence of any evidence that someone openly carrying a gun is sensible, disciplined, balanced and expert enough to do so safely for the rest of us.

Efforts to resist gun control are seen by outsiders as efforts to make and keep guns legal and accessible to everyone no matter who they are, and that's what makes those who OC subject to the public's negative reactions- guns are just too easy to get for them to be at ease with someone at WalMart with a Glock or a Super Blackhawk on, and anyone so equipped is assumed to be against gun control- in the minds of the non-gun or anti-gun public all this adds up to someone OCing being a gun nut anxious to shoot someone, and they're strongly reluctant to submit their well-being to someone like that, as I am.

It's my contention that OCing, for whatever reason and for whatever intention hurts all of us who have and shoot handguns and who concurrently don't like being associated with armed political zealots or ersatz cops or those who advertise that they're ready to shoot whenever they want to, for whatever reason legit or not. I think the general public shares those negative thoughts, if they think about it at all, which they will when a gun toter shows up in line with them at Starbucks. In some states the karma is different, but I think it's like this in most of urban America.

Just because someone is quietly going about his or her business with a gun on their belt, is no proof that they aren't a risk to everyone nearby, because nobody made sure they were capable of having a deadly weapon that presented no risk for innocent bystanders.

Most people aren't of the opinion that violence against them is just around the corner which requires being armed- right or wrong, seeing someone with a gun in WalMart seems to them to be a big overreaction, an unnecessary presence of the means to meet violent force with violent force when they think none is imminent.

The general public would be a lot more at ease with OC if they could have confidence that those with guns have passed some filters that made sure they could do so without a big risk to those nearby. Absent any such confidence, and including the sense that there's no need for the means to deadly force in everyday public circumstances, has them look at gun-toting civilians with something less than a confident, approving eye, and when they go to vote, this lack of confidence will be expressed.
 
Last edited:
Just because someone is quietly going about his or her business with a gun on their belt, is no proof that they aren't a risk to everyone nearby, because nobody made sure they were capable of having a deadly weapon that presented no risk for innocent bystanders.

No proof, yes, but it is a pretty good indication that that someone is a law abiding citizen. And just because a person is not carrying openly is no proof that he is not armed, lawfully or otherwise.

If I were at the cash register in an establishment on either of the drug arteries we have here and if open carry by law abiding citizens were permitted, I would perceive a lower level of risk from such a person than from two or three men who enter without guns on their hips.

Why? We have had more armed robberies in the last six months in our area in the last six months than in my lifetime before that (the neighborhood is not turning bad, but the perps are driving in from elsewhere and then leaving). I cannot imagine why one would wear a gun openly if he intended wrong-doing. It just does not make any sense.

Had I been in the Wal-Mart in question here, I would have been much less concerned about the OP than about a potential perp who intended to surprise. There are not that many, but they are becoming more and more common than before.

To me that's common sense, pure and simple, and I, for one, have devoted some thought to the subject

However, many if not most in the anti-gun crowd do not seem to use common sense, and most of them base their reactions on emotion and prior conditioning. Those people are much more likely to be worried by open carry than I am. I am also aware that they vote.

If open carry were permitted here, I would not do it. I don't want to incite the many, many anti-gunners, and I do not want to advertise that I have something of value for the taking.
 
Uncle Billy said
The difficulty lies in the absence of any evidence that someone openly carrying a gun is sensible, disciplined, balanced and expert enough to do so safely for the rest of us.
Except for one minor detail. The ABSENSE of evidence is not evidence, and, therefore, no probable cause exists for anything more than a "good day, Sir."
 
Two things I would like to mention about your post, Uncle Billy.

#1. It absolutely reeks of guilty until proven innocent (as the two posts previous to this one already point out.

#2. This general anti-gun public that you speak of that has such negative feelings towards guns and those that carry them..... Just how do you suppose we are going to win them over by hiding our guns from them? Just because they feel more comfortable does not mean they are being educated. Many times education causes one to become uncomfortable because it brings about change and people don't like change. But if we just hide our guns away, how is that change going to come?

The same situation existed with racial minorities in the first half of the 20th century. A lot of white folks just were not comfortable being around minorities - out of ignorance and fear - until those minorities started standing up and saying, "We are no different than you! We shop, we eat at restaurants, we work at jobs, we go about our normal lives just like everyone else does!" And it wasn't until they stood up and starting SHOWING people that in a VISIBLE way, and sometimes in a FORCEFUL way, that we really gained racial equality in this country.

The same situation existed with the gay/alternate lifestyle people in the later half of the 20th century. It wasn't until they stood up and starting SHOWING people that they were just normal people doing normal things in a VISIBLE way, and sometimes in a FORCEFUL way, that they at least have started to gain equal acceptance.

So why is self defense and guns going to be different? Those of us interested in preserving the foundations of freedom upon which this country are founded are not going to win anyone over or educate anyone by simply hiding everything away that makes someone uncomfortable. What is going to happen is there is going to be an ABSENCE of the person who VISIBLY demonstrates that guns are for self defense, guns are meant to be carried in their holsters and not brandished around, and that the VAST majority of gun owners/carriers are concerned, law abiding citizens. And in that ABSENCE of VISIBLE evidence of that, what is going to happen is the anti-gun crowd is going to hold up each bad incident that happens to involve a gun and they are going to make those bad incidents VISIBLE and well known to the public, and that is all the public is going to end up actually seeing - and then believing as well. And then what do you suppose the outcome of that situation will be?

We have to make our peaceful, law abiding presence VISIBLE and KNOWN so that others can see it, and we aren't going to do that by hiding our guns away so anti-gun Joe can feel comfortable in his little bubble where the anti-gun crowd has told him he is safe in.

And this general fear of open carriers - the immediate yellow alert - is that not just watered down hoplophobia? Let me illustrate that.... what do you really know about the person who is coming at you on the highway at 60-70 miles per hour in a 3,000 lb hunk of steel and glass and about to pass you with a combined closing speed of 140 mph and pass within about 6 ft of you? How many more car wrecks are there than shootings? Do you go on yellow alert on the highway and ask yourself the same questions about all those other drivers that you are about the guy carrying the gun in a holster at Wal Mart?
 
Last edited:
I think one thing needs mentioned in regards to rights (I am all for gun rights and I ccw daily) but other patrons in stores have the right to shop withouit being made to feel nervous. And unfortunately someone carrying a gun openly may make some feel nervous and uncomfortable. In Indiana which does allow open carry for permit holders, and I could be wrong on this, I think it is allowed to avoid a permit holder from being accused of brandishing if the gun becomes visible during concealed carry. There's only a few circumstance where I could imagine I would open carry and those wouldn't involve me being around a multitude of people (ie hiking, hunting and camping). As mentioned before wal mart is private property and they decide what is allowed. And from my experience when it comes to wal mart the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. In closing when it comes to certain rights sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
 
There are certain truths/facts that we should understand. This way we're comparing apples with apples and not make a fruit salad.

1. Criminals who either illegally possess a gun or are using a gun to commit a crime, will NOT be carrying the weapon openly.
2. Just because a person can legally own/possess a gun, doesn't mean they should be allowed to. (No RIGHT is unconditional. You don't have unconditional freedom of speech, religion, etc...). There's nothing wrong with ensuring that a person buying a gun, and using it in PUBLIC, has some basic safety and operational training. (ANYONE is free to buy a car, but to use it on a PUBLIC road requires training/permission). Not uncommon for 12 year olds to drive pickups, tractors, etc... here on the ranches. But that's not on a public road.
3. Carrying a gun; either openly or concealed; is more a matter of social acceptance than legal. There is nothing unconstitutional about the government, local or national, restricting carrying a weapon to ONLY concealed or ONLY open. The 2nd amendment says that it's our right to bear arms. Bear means to carry. HOW we carry is not guaranteed, and therefor can be dictated socially. As long as we are allowed to carry. So as long as we're allowed to carry either open, concealed, or both; we have our right. If a local society says that only allow concealed, (And they don't infringe on the person from carrying it concealed), all is legal. But I admit that many local societies try to bend the rules to make it too difficult to carry the gun.
4. Most importantly, our constitution and declaration have been interpreted differently by different people for more than 200 years. And just because YOU think it means something, doesn't mean that everyone else believes it means that. Hence, the reason so many cases go to the supreme court.
5. Carrying a gun is strictly a social issue when it comes to perception. When your state and local communities tear down obstacles to owning guns, and become free in their social perception; like Alaska, Wyoming, Arizona, and a few other places, then open and concealed carry won't bother people. But when a local state/society demonizes guns long enough, like Kalifornia and New Jersey, then people will automatically associate guns with crime and death. To fix the perception, you need to force the LAW on the society so they free people and their rights. Then, people's perceptions can be changed.

I personally prefer to conceal carry, because any criminal carrying a gun to commit a crime with have his concealed. I don't want him to have the advantage over me. "He knows I have one, but I DON'T know he has one". And no, open carry doesn't deter crime. If a person wants to commit a crime, it's actually easier for them if open carry is legal and concealed is illegal. Then they know exactly who has a gun. In a place like wyoming where a LOT of people carry concealed and the overwhelming have guns at home, the bad guys have no idea who is carrying; just that odds are someone is. That's the deterrence. I don't open carry normally because I prefer to DETER crime. And crime is deterred more when the bad guy isn't in control and doesn't have the upper hand. But again, it has to be a social thing. In New Jersey, there's probably 1 out of every 1000 people with a concealed weapon permit and is carrying. Those odds are pretty good for the bad guy. In wyoming, it's unlikely that a bad guy can walk into ANY business or public area without SOMEONE carrying a concealed weapon. That is the deterrence.
 
psychohellbilly666 said:
I think one thing needs mentioned in regards to rights (I am all for gun rights and I ccw daily) but other patrons in stores have the right to shop withouit being made to feel nervous. And unfortunately someone carrying a gun openly may make some feel nervous and uncomfortable.

Psycho,

Would you please post a reference that indicates a person has a right to shop without being "made to feel nervous?" Let me ask you this.... why is their right to not be "made to feel nervous" of any more consideration than my "right to not be made to feel nervous?" What if crying babies make me feel nervous? What if groups of teenagers makes me feel nervous? According to your post than anybody that feels nervous about anything would have a "right" to complain and have the "offender" removed, correct?

There is no right to "comfort". What people do have the right to do, if they feel uncomfortable or nervous is to leave that place and go somewhere else.
 
NavyLT, God bless you. I have been away from the board for the last 24 hours, but you hit the nail on the head!

People keep talking about the appearance of a gun making people feel uncomfortable...just like the appearance of a black male being on the same bus as a white person used to make (some) white people nervous. I'm a 30 year old black man (with no criminal history, 2 degrees, several academic accolades, etc)...do I make people nervous? I don't always have a suit and tie on. I may have on a tshirt and baggy jeans (a gangsta uniform?!)

It has been mentioned in previous posts that the actions of a single gun carrier reflects on all gun carriers...and I agree with this. But I think people here only feel like those actions/reactions must be negative. Why can't the actions of a gun carrier be positive? I already try to avoid confrontations when I CCW, but I go out of my way to be extra nice/polite/cordial when I OC because my actions will reflect on every gun owner, regardless of their affinity toward/against OC.
 
If I don't know the mental state of someone, I have no reason to conclude they are anything at all. But if I see they have a gun, and I don't know what's going on in their head, I'm going into self-preservation mode and act accordingly. That's the same mode that they were into when they decided to openly carry a gun. If it's okay for them to carry a gun in case something happens, it's also okay for me to be suspicious of someone with a gun that I don't know and can't depend on being no risk to me. If they aren't being paranoid, then neither am I. If everyday citizens find others around them with guns make them uncomfortable, that's why, and it's legit.

If anyone thinks that a gun in a holster is some sort of proof of sanity, discipline, morality and skill of whose wearing it, then more thinking needs to be done, a lot more. In a place where open carry is legit and lots are doing it, the smart way to hold up a store or do someone violence is to walk in OCing like others are, and then draw the gun and announce your intent. That's a lot faster than CCing it and allows a much larger gun to be brought into play- with no need to hide it, its size becomes less a carry issue and more an impact on events. Anyone else with an OC weapon is at least going to lose the gun to the bad guy if the bad guy gets the drop on him, and might get shot at the start if the crook is desperate enough, quick on the draw and without any qualms about shooting someone.

So your local 7-11 might look like the OK Corral when the bad guys, OCing, meet the good guys, also OCing, and there's a shootout, and who's who in the melee is indecipherable to someone who happens on it when it's going on or gets there after it starts- like the police, for instance. No thanks, if the only gun visible before the action starts is the bad guy's because OC isn't legal, then anyone CCing has some advantage. If the circumstances are that lots of people are known to be CCing, then a bad guy has to expect, if he's using any sense, that it's possible EVERYone there has a CCW, and the risk he's taking is liable to get him shot by someone he couldn't spot as having a gun before it started, which might dissuade him from the crime out front. If he decides to do it anyway he's without an immediate reason to focus on anyone because no one is advertising they have a weapon.
 
christcorp said:
And no, open carry doesn't deter crime.

Again, that statement makes absolutely no sense. Why in heck would a criminal rob a place where there are people KNOWN to be armed, or why would a criminal rob a person KNOWN to be armed, when one block down the road there is another convenience store or any other similar place where there is a much, much greater chance that there will be nobody there known to be armed? or the criminal could wait two minutes for the KNOWN armed person to walk away and a person not visibly armed come along?

Criminals don't like to get shot any more than you do and don't like to get caught and a VISIBLY armed person greatly increases the probability of either one of those happening and it is way too easy for the criminal to walk down the street one block or wait two minutes for the threat to pass.
 
Uncle Billy,
Do you carry a gun?

There is ONE difference between the person who carries the gun openly and the person who carries the gun concealed. That difference is one person wears their shirt tucked in and the other one doesn't.
 
Geez louise Uncle Billy, are we really going to sit here and play the "what if" game?! That's the ploy of anti's and I know you aren't one of them (by virtue of you being on this forum and the quality of some of your other posts in other sections).

Please, dear God, please can anyone show me a link to a news account where the OK Corral shootout occurred between LEGAL OC'ers and OC'ing criminals. Cmon man!

If your concern is with regard to the level of training, then how is it that you can even trust local law enforcement? It wouldn't take long to find a number of incidents where officers had had negligent discharges, or used their weapons inappropriately. Their training and proficiency is questioned on a regular basis on this very forum.

Tell me sir, what is the proper amount of training? I will gladly sign up for and attend whatever shooting camps you deem necessary. I have been around guns my entire life, have CC'd for nearly a decade, shoot on a regular basis...of course, I have no desire (but tons of respect) to join up with military/law enforcement ranks.
 
NavyLT said:
And this general fear of open carriers - the immediate yellow alert - is that not just watered down hoplophobia? Let me illustrate that.... what do you really know about the person who is coming at you on the highway at 60-70 miles per hour in a 3,000 lb hunk of steel and glass and about to pass you with a combined closing speed of 140 mph and pass within about 6 ft of you?

Well, I can have some reasonable expectation he had training in driving, had passed a test of his skills, and there's some chance he would have been stopped before he got to me if he was driving in a dangerous way. What comparable filter is there for OCers?

This general anti-gun public that you speak of that has such negative feelings towards guns and those that carry them..... Just how do you suppose we are going to win them over by hiding our guns from them? Just because they feel more comfortable does not mean they are being educated. Many times education causes one to become uncomfortable because it brings about change and people don't like change. But if we just hide our guns away, how is that change going to come?

If we hide our guns from them with CC, then they don't have to be educated, they might not have any opinion at all because nothing negative was aroused in their minds. They won't have positive thoughts if they are present for a shootout that puts them at risk, and the possibility of that comes to them when they see a lot of guns in casual places. When we OC, we can't assume a positive response from everyone, and ought to assume that many who hadn't given it any thought will be drawn to oppose any sort of carry because guns immediately in their presence, in places where the only possible targets are people, on purpose or by accident, make them feel at risk and uncomfortable and that means something to them and your rights don't trump that when they are presented a choice of which to pursue.


The same situation existed with racial minorities in the first half of the 20th century. ...The same situation existed with the gay/alternate lifestyle people in the later half of the 20th century....We have to make our peaceful, law abiding presence VISIBLE and KNOWN so that others can see it...

Racial minorities and gay people are not an immediate purposeful or accidental risk of harm or death to anyone, gun toters and their guns are, which is presented loud and clear to the otherwise unaware public when they are next to an OCer. All the talk of upholding rights and proof of the purity of OCers (that will take some time to accumulate, if that's even a realistic expectation which it isn't) are lost in the loud alarm bells going off in their heads when they see someone carrying a gun- who that person is and what they're about isn't clear at all, but the means to hurt innocents like them and their kids IS clear and they don't like it. What they'll learn is that guns too available puts them at risk in public places, which it does when there's no requirements for training and education of OC gun carriers like there is for CCing, and ALL carrying gets their animosity.

Sometimes it's just not possible to take on the current by going upstream in the middle of the river. Paddling along the edges, where the bulk of the pressure is avoided and you don't have to face it gets you where you're going. Not so heroically, not as satisfying to macho needs, but there nonetheless.
 
And no, open carry doesn't deter crime.[/QUOTE]

Not true, too many news stories of a criminal seeing an openly carried firearm and leaving the premises or no crime committed at the time because of the deterrent of a citizen being armed. Your statement sir, is simply conjecture.

So now because someone openly carries their firearm they have no training and should be treated as guilty until proven innocent? Once again, here we go judging again...Uncle Billy, if you don't know the person open carrying then you don't know if that person is a former combat vet, been to training at Blackwater, Gunsite, Thuderranch, etc. To assume a person is unqualified because of his mode of carrying is no different then someone assuming you're a right wing extremist because you are a firearm owner. No difference at all sir.

Live and let live gentlemen...a lot of double standards here. That person is not infringing on your rights, you have no right to infringe upon theirs.
 
Uncle Billy said:
Racial minorities and gay people are not an immediate purposeful or accidental risk of harm or death to anyone, gun toters and their guns are, which is presented loud and clear to the otherwise unaware public when they are next to an OCer.

Negative, Uncle Billy. You've been drinking the New York kool aid far too long. You have come to believe what the anti-gun culture has been preaching. To rearrange your sentence a little bit, just to clarify it's meaning:

"gun toters and their guns are an immediate purposeful or accidental risk of harm or death". Is that not what you said? Hmmm.... where have I heard that before.....

and then, "which is presented loud and clear to the otherwise unaware public when they are next to an OCer."

No, my friend Uncle Billy.... this idea that "gun toters and their guns are an immediate threat" is not presented to the public loud and clear by open carriers. It is presented to the public loud and clear by the anti-gun crowd such as the Brady Campaign and the Violence Policy Center and it is a sad state of affairs when their propoganda has had such deep effects upon those that claim to be "pro gun."
 
Posted by NavyLT: Would you please post a reference that indicates a person has a right to shop without being "made to feel nervous?"
That "right" (a misnomer, but that's not important here) derives simply from the merchant's motivation to sell. For the merchant, it's a judgment call. Will more customers go elsewhere because there's a man in the store with a gun, or because he prohibits open carry? In Elmer Keith's old home town one would likely get one answer, and in Uncle Billy's neighborhood, quite another.

Posted by Uncle Billy: So your local 7-11 might look like the OK Corral when the bad guys, OCing, ...
I cannot imagine a "bad guy" carrying openly. It simply makes no sense to me. Why would anyone in his right mind who was planning a hold-up draw attention to himself by wearing a gun openly? Stealth would be paramount, wouldn't it?


Posted by NavyLT: Again, that statement ["open carry doesn't deter crime"] makes absolutely no sense. Why in heck would a criminal rob a place where there are people KNOWN to be armed, or why would a criminal rob a person KNOWN to be armed, when one block down the road there is another convenience store or any other similar place where there is a much, much greater chance that there will be nobody there known to be armed? or the criminal could wait two minutes for the KNOWN armed person to walk away and a person not visibly armed come along?
Common sense would tell you that no perp in his right mind would choose an armed victim over an unarmed victim--under most circumstances.

There are two hypothetical circumstances in which he might: (1) he needs or really wants the gun (a sneaky slice of a tendon will get it), or (2) for some reason known only to himself, he is committed to mayhem in the establishment at hand and will simply shoot the open carrier first.

How great a risk do those possibilities pose for the open carrier? Having the gun taken would be the more likely of the two, I think. Personally, I would be more concerned about the gun being taken from my car while I am in a Post Office after I had been seen to have a gun.

Off the subject of deterrence, but on the subject of risk to the open carrier, I would rather walk in on an armed robbery in process (no shooting yet) looking benign than with a gun showing in a holster--but again, that's off the subject of deterrence.

Decades ago, Elmer Keith wrote about a terrible shooting; I think it had occurred in a MacDonalds. He mused, quite correctly, I think, about how long the shooter(s) would have lasted, and about how the number of victims would have been reduced, had the perps tried that in his home town in Idaho.

One might wonder whether they would ever have tried it. Common sense says no, but there are hundreds of "dumb crook" stories. Common sense tells me that open carry can deter many crimes; it does not tell me that it's the right choice for me.

Yes, open carry can make a lot of people nervous. If they are ant-gun, I submit that they will not "get used to it"--they'll have to have something unexpected happen that would change their minds, or they will simply become more opposed to the idea. Again, they react to emotion and conditioning, and not to common sense.

For me? If I worked in a stop-and-rob and a couple of people walked in to shop with guns on their hips, I think my level of discomfort would actually go down, at least until they left. After all, "why in heck would a criminal rob a place where there are people KNOWN to be armed,... ".
 
Last edited:
i hope i did this quoting thing correctly... :rolleyes:

Uncle Billy said:
Well, I can have some reasonable expectation he had training in driving, had passed a test of his skills, and there's some chance he would have been stopped before he got to me if he was driving in a dangerous way. What comparable filter is there for OCers?

oh well in that case, i'm good to go. here in NC, they require we take a class first and exercise (a state-mandated level of) proficiency with a firearm. so, by your standards, if a state requires a class for CCW/OC, then once you obtain said training, you should qualify to OC without incident?

and you do realize that most states do NOT require any level of formalized training to obtain a driver's license? all anyone has to do is get a few things right on a driving course and VOILA you're licensed to operate a 2 ton V8 rolling death machine!


Uncle Billy said:
If we hide our guns from them with CC, then they don't have to be educated, they might not have any opinion at all because nothing negative was aroused in their minds

ummm, when exactly has LESS education ever benefited the populace?? maybe if we hide our guns from our children, they won't wonder what's in that closet...??


Uncle Billy said:
Racial minorities and gay people are not an immediate purposeful or accidental risk of harm or death to anyone, gun toters and their guns are, which is presented loud and clear to the otherwise unaware public when they are next to an OCer. All the talk of upholding rights and proof of the purity of OCers (that will take some time to accumulate, if that's even a realistic expectation which it isn't) are lost in the loud alarm bells going off in their heads when they see someone carrying a gun- who that person is and what they're about isn't clear at all, but the means to hurt innocents like them and their kids IS clear and they don't like it. What they'll learn is that guns too available puts them at risk in public places, which it does when there's no requirements for training and education of OC gun carriers like there is for CCing, and ALL carrying gets their animosity.

racial minorities/gay people are not an immediate purposeful/accidental risk of harm or death to anyone...yes, we know this now, but what about 50 years ago?

the funny thing is, if you took out the word "gun" from your previous statement and injected the word "negro" or "gay" into it, it would look/sound like alot of the fear-mongering that people spewed back in the pre-civil rights days
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top