I Was Attacked - Would use of force be legally justified?

But, if you draw and he DOES run, you wont shoot, so in effect you are drawing to scare him away. if i am misunderstanding you please do correct me.
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I draw my gun to save my life from an imminent threat. If the threat runs away, I have saved my life. If I must shoot, it is to save my life.

Between the time I go for the gun and get the sights aligned, my threat is not standing there waiting. The threat is reacting to my actions. The gun can either exacerbate the threat or it can make it evaporate. When you clear leather, you never know for sure which way it will go. That is why I will not draw unless there is an imminent lethal threat. There will be a short delay in time, about one and a half seconds at most when the threat can make a life changing decision. I will not shoot a man who is retreating, and a threat can begin a retreat before you can get your sights aligned. My plan at that point is to take cover.

I guess what I am getting at is once I go for that gun, my response will not be decided by what I want, but by what the threat does. Therefore my response is out of my hands. I have trained myself to fire as soon as the sights are aligned. I tell myself if that gun comes out, it's going to be fired. I do that to eliminate hesitation on my part, and to prevent pulling a gun to "scare away' a threat.. Still, if the threat decides in that moment to flee, then I will hold fire.

Making that decision to use the gun if necessary is done when you strap it on in the morning. The necessity is recognized when you pull the gun in response to a threat. For me, few threats are worth taking a life. The only way I could live with that is if I believed in my heart a life was saved by my actions. I'm well past that period when I am aware of my weapon, when I feel empowered by it's presence. For me, it is life insurance, and I hope I never need to use it.
 
If you ever have to speak to the police again, don't talk about what you would have done. The police are not your friends, and to them you are just another 'mope'. What possible benefit can you gain from telling them you would have shot the fat guy, if you had a gun? Comments like that can come back to haunt you.
 
First off SnackTrack, I wasn't trying to harrass you, just telling you that your
story is full of holes and contradictions that a good lawyer could eat up.

Anyway, I will get by just fine. ANd yes a gun is death wielding power, in case you didnt know the only thing guns do is kill people. Be glad I havent obtained one illegally, carry concealed, sell drugs, and rob houses. I guess those are the people that deserve more rights than me? Come on now.
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Now that really is a silly statement. You DON'T CARRY A GUN TO HAVE DEATH
WEILDING POWER. You carry a gun to DEFEND YOUR LIFE. PERIOD. NO
EXCEPTIONS. And your the one who better be glad you haven't, "obtained
one illegally, carry concealed, sell drugs, and rob houses" not me. If you are
stupid enough to do those things you get what you deserve. And as for
your statement that "the only thing guns do is kill people", man that sounds
like leftist, liberal, anti-gun propaganda to me. On the contrary, my evil old
guns have fired 1000's of rounds, in sport shooting, competition, target
practice, hunting, and such, and have yet to kill a single person. With your
statement, how is that possible?

And also, you already said in your own words, that you weren't really in fear
for your life, cuz you had a thick coat on, but afraid for your little doggie.
Now having stated that you were NOT in fear of YOUR safety, but the safety
of your DOG, so you shot him over your dog!? You suddenly got scared for
your life and shot? But you already said you DIDN'T fear for your safety, just
your dog.......see how a good lawyer can pick you apart in court and make
the jury believe ANYTHING? I'm not trying to down on you real hard, just
make you wake up and realize some of your statements don't hold water,
and that you had better get some better situational training than what your
local CCW class affords.

And BTW, i'm not one of your armchair gun guys, who can comment on a
situation from a computer.....I happen to have quite a bit of training, both
military and civilian, and am quite well schooled on the subject of law, but
all that considered, what I say is still just opinion I guess.....
 
You are a pretty good debater. But really it seems like you would rather be skeptical of my story and argue just for the sake of arguing rather that offering good advice like some of the others such as Xavier and First Freedom.

Yes a gun can be used for sport, in fact I was at the range silhouette shooting last friday with a .22 target pistol. I am a liberal leftist, whatever you call me, but I believe in self defense. Using a gun to defend your life, is using deadly force, aka, death wielding power. Its just different arrangement of words. Can we agree on that much? And calling me anti gun is rather funny, being that I am here on a gun forum talking about my situation, I own two high quality guns that I have been trained how to use, I have paid hundreds of dollars to put in my application for ccw. SO how am I anti gun? When you carry your gun with you for protection, it is meant to kill right? A target pistol is just that, its designed for target shooting. A .357 revolver, which is what I carry, what is that for? Target shooting? Shooting targets is to practice for shooting a live target. Hard to get a volunteer for that, isnt it?

Yes I was scared for my as you say it condescendindly, "my little doggie" because she is defenseless, and just like if your child ran out into the street in front of a speeding car you would dive after her without thinking about yourself, wouldnt you? Well, thats how I feel about my dog.
 
Hey thanks for the link, I have already read In the Gravest Extreme when I bought my first gun at 21. Which when I say in my training I was taught only to draw to kill, which is the main thing I got from reading that book, that has stayed with me for 9 years since I bought my first gun. THats why I was asking Xavier about whether drawing you weapon can put the ball in the attackers court to either flee of continue attacking. What Xavier says makes more sense to me. AN attacker attacks because he believes you are defenseless, when they realize you arent, and that in fact they are the ones in danger, then will most likely retreat. But, you say Masaad gives lectures? I would love to hear him speak in person, I will check his schedule out. THanks.
 
When you carry your gun with you for protection, it is meant to kill right?
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no snacktrack. I do not carry a gun to kill, and neither should you. That is
not the proper mindset for a person who carries a gun. I am just trying to get
it through your obviously rather thick head, that alot of the things you are
SAYING, and your choice of WORDS, if you said things the same way in front
of law enforcment, or lawyers, judges, ect. it would get you in prison real
quick. But never mind, I see trying to educate one as highly enlightened as
yourself is pointless. Go ahead. Tell the cops you carry that gun to kill
someone if they tried to hurt you. I'll read about your hearing in the papers.

And BTW, YOUR the one who said the only things guns do is kill people. You
made that statement. And when you did, you echoed the warcry of every
left-wing, bleeding heart, anti-gun liberal from here to Kalifornia. THATS
why I said it.......you know if it looks like a duck....and QUACKS like a duck....
 
Snack,
Derius T is making some very good points.

In a shooting the shooter has three phases of survival.
#1 is surviving the event itself, obviously.
#2 is surviving the legal repercussions.
#3 is surviving your own thoughts about what you have done.

You are concentrating on #1, and that is good. DT is talking about #2. What you say or have said before will slam those bars shut quicker than what you have done. Ask any defense attorney what his biggest liability in a case is, and he will tell you his client's words. Your words will imprison you, or they can be the means to freedom. People tend to repeat things that they said before. As a statement is repeated, what we say becomes what we think, not the other way around. What we think becomes how we react. Your words are common in a person who is all wrapped up in the honeymoon of the CCW world. You must be very careful what you say. You do not want your best buddy on the witness stand stating what you said. You do not want your words typed on the internet read to a gun ignorant jury. They could really sway that jury the wrong way.
---------edited to add:-------------
Consider, if you will my choice of words in post #57
1. Run or I will shoot you.
2. Shoot me before I shoot you.
3. Continue your attack and hope I don't shoot you.
4. Continue your attack and get shot.
I choose my words very carefully. There is a reason for that. What you type on the internet becomes a lasting slice of your thoughts, what lawyers call mens rea I think. Thus far, to my knowlege, forum posts have not been used as evidence to support a murder case, but ICQ messages have, and forum posts have been used to support cases in lesser crimes. Use care in their selection. They are powerful indeed

#3 is a survival phase that nobody ever wants to talk about, because most people do not realize it is there. They assume that they will have no regrets over saving their own life. The doubts, post event trauma and nightmares will come. You will wonder if there was any way you could have avoided the situation. You will wonder if there was any way you could have lessened the impact. You will wonder if God will forgive you. If you are an atheist, you will wonder if you are wrong. If you do not experience this, even in a justified shooting, there is something wrong with you. It should be noted that Post Event Trauma severity is directly porportional to society's acceptance and understanding of the event. If society states that the event was not just, the trauma will be worse. If society states that the event was unavoidable, the trauma will be less. In either case though. the questions will surface, and your thinking and actions before the event will be examined harshly by yourself. You will find no support groups to help you, and no psychiatrists who know what you are talking about. You will be on your own to fight the nightmares. Hopefully you will reach acceptance. If you do not, you will approach suicide. Your thoughts and actions before the event will be uncompromising, undeniable, and your cross to bear. The time to modify them is now. Don't ask me how I know.

Don't let any of this prevent you from shooting to live, however.

.
 
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Ok Xavier, very well said. In saying that, I will listen to your advice from now on because ironically enough, it IS how things are said.
But never mind, I see trying to educate one as highly enlightened as
yourself is pointless.
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Anyone who is insulting me and talking ot me condescendingly, Im going to shut out.

I mean Darius might as well come out and call me a liar, and tell me it didnt happen the way I said. Calling me names and calling me a liberal and attaching all the stereotypes to it is just ignorance, and honestly I dont want to listen to anyone who obviously doesnt care what I have to say because they already have me pegged as "leftist, liberal, thick headed" Just tell me I dont have the right to protect myself, and that I dont have the right to ask questions. If I knew it all why would I be asking so many questions from others who understand the responsibility that a ccw gives you. Why would I have read "In the gravest extreme" why would I have read dozens of articles about this subject, and consider joining a pistol club? Sounds like an anti- gun person to me if I have ever seen one!



One thing is for sure, if I had used deadly force, I wouldnt have talked to anyone, not even my family members until I had seen a lawyer. I sure as hell wouldnt be talking on forums about it. I would exercise my fifth amendment rights to the fullest. I think I am making it pretty clear here that I feared for my life, and I was being attacked, and that I think I am extremely lucky I got out of my situation. I am not going around saying, man I will shoot this guy if I see him again, and running my mouth in a macho way. I am trying to better prepare myself for another incident if it happens.

I see your point about the 3 facets of ccw.
I would like to bump#1 down to number two though.
#1 Should be education. Because without #1 you cant make a correct judgement on #2 (using deadly force), which will severely affect #3( legal) which ultimately affects #4, the mental aftermath.

If I had to use deadly force on a family member(god forbid) or an animal, I would most certainly experience the post traumatic feelings that you describe. It sounds like you have experienced them personally? Is there another post where you talk about what happened?
 
We can learn from everyone, even those who are condescending and insulting. An insult is never given unless it is received. Rise above the fray.

We can also learn from those who know less than ourselves. Every day I learn from my patients as I teach them how to care for themselves. If I don't learn a better way of doing something, I learn a better way of dealing with people, or perhaps a truism about myself.

One thing is certain though, when we tune others out, we cease to learn.
It may look as though I'm giving advice on these forums. I'm not. I'm learning too.

The use of lethal force has touched my life, and I have been irrevocably changed by it. Other than my birth, and my (hopefully a long time coming)death, this one act will have had more of an impact on my life than any other. More than my present marriage and more than the birth of my children. I spoke of it on another forum a year or so back, and I will not speak of it again. I do not want to bury it, but I will not be debated on it.

FWIW, this very subject is being discussed in this thread. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1467796#post1467796
 
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I'll try again. What you said in your last post:
I am not going around saying, man I will shoot this guy if I see him again, and running my mouth in a macho way.
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Seems contridicted by this in your first:
and if I had been carrying tonight, I would have 100% shot him dead
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And this in a later one:

Ill tell you how I really feel. I did want this guy to pay for being so f'in ignorant. To try and beat me with a whoop ass stick because I "cursed at him" makes me terribly angry. I know its not right, but just making suddenly throw his hands up say, "now wait a minute, I didnt mean that man" while staring down the barrel of my .357 snubbie would have been a great revenge. I realize thats a no no, but I dont have to explain that in a gun forum, do I?
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Well at least to my confused mind you do have to explain it. Is the gun a weapon of last resort, or is it a device to "make him pay" or revenge your honor, or intimidate? It probably seems like I'm giving you a hard time, but I really can not figure out your intentions. :confused:
 
Well, if I was being a bit insulting, I can appologize. But, again you have
totally missed the point. That your words and your actions can get you in
more trouble than pulling that trigger.....after the fact. The way you have
expressed yourself, the things you have said, and the way you have said
them would paint you in a very bad light to a jury. Trust me, I have seen
this type of thing happen before. And, just to show you that you change
positions more than a porn star, a few more quotes from YOU.

I am not going around saying, man I will shoot this guy if I see him again, and running my mouth in a macho way.
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Really?

Ill tell you how I really feel. I did want this guy to pay for being so f'in ignorant. To try and beat me with a whoop ass stick because I "cursed at him" makes me terribly angry. I know its not right, but just making suddenly throw his hands up say, "now wait a minute, I didnt mean that man" while staring down the barrel of my .357 snubbie would have been a great revenge. I realize thats a no no, but I dont have to explain that in a gun forum, do I?
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Great revenge? Seriously, do you see that you are contradicting yourself all
over the place? And if you get 'mad' at me, or ignore me because what I say
pissed you off.....fine.....like I said it wasn't my intention. I just pray that
you have enough common sense to at least listen to WHAT i've said, and
try to realize that your mouth can turn your 'self defense' case into a case
of cold-blooded, methodical, revenge.......from your OWN WORDS.

And besides, some of the things you have said, and the way you have said
lead me to believe you are most likely VERY young and inexperienced. But
thats what these forums are here for. Just hope you learn wisdom and
restraint before you strap on that six-shooter.....for your own sake.....
 
Ok Derius,

I will defintely agree with you this time. How I feel and what I decide to do are two different things though.

I realize you are just trying to help me. I just prefer listening to Xavier because he has a more understanding approach. Alot of the things you say are right. I most certainly said things that could have gotten me in trouble. But however, nothing happened. And all the thoughts and feelings I have while on the threshold of obtaining my CCW, its actually a good thing something like this happened.

Talking about it on this forum to you guys who know much more than me about the laws and self defense tactics is the best thing I could do. Whether you think its incriminating or not, I really dont care.

The fact is, I am alot more prepared for another encounter from discussing my feelings of anger and revenge, and what other people would have done. I am a realist. People have dynamic states. What you may call a contradiction is human nature. I was not scared for my own harm when the dog went for my dog, I was scared for my dog's safety. When I had a big wooden stick raised to my head I was scared for my own life, when I was running away I felt anger, after I calmed down and talked to the police I felt lucky it turned out the way it did. When I sat and thought about it and how I go to this place every day, and that I was just trying to walk my dog and I was attacked, I feel revenge. But because I feel revenge, does that mean I act on it? WHen I talk to you guys and you tell me how things could snowball on me, I think about how I could avoid the situation. ETC....

So, lets bury the beef(lol, no homsexual pun intended) Derius, I get your drift. You dont want me making stupid remarks because you want your fellow gun owner to act responsibly, because ultiimately you are a good guy at heart, right? I promise to keep my cool and not saying anything incriminating, and you promise to never dis my dog? :D Deal?
 
Well, I don't know how good a guy I am, but okay. And please, always say
whatever you want, I wasn't at all trying to repress your right to speak freely.
Just trying to get it into your mind that you must be very careful when
talking to police, lawyers, judges, ect. I don't really care WHAT you say here.
Like you said, its best to talk about it and learn. I learn something new here
every day from these great (and not so great) people. :D :D :D

But seriously, be safe....be careful, and be educated about the LAWS,
just as much as you are about that gun..........good shooting.......
 
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