I Was Attacked - Would use of force be legally justified?

well, to be honest, I dont know what would have happened if i was carrying, but the simple fact is. i have had a handgun since i was 21, I am 29 now. I have never brought it with me, brandished it, threatened someone, or nor have i ever broke any laws in my life. I dont drink, smoke, do drugs, etc. But I do like to walk my dog, I like to be able to go where I want and be free. THat is the definition of free, isnt it? Also, I find it pretty ironic that someone in a gun forum who is all for carrying a gun, but never using it in any circumstance. I mean, yes I did manage to get away from the guy. But what if I didnt. WHat if I slipped on the snow, and the guy was right over top of me, what do you think would have happened? Remember here, I did retreat, I did not go looking for him with my gun. My outcome was perfect. I am choosing to wait until I am legally able to carry, and I might have to make a quick judgement call one day, hopefully I wont. BUt you all have the luxury of analyzing the incident from your computer. You have the luxury of knowing what the outcome was. And I do find it pretty frustrating nobody thinks this guy was a threat. The only person to even take my side is Master Blaster.

Anyway, I will get by just fine. ANd yes a gun is death wielding power, in case you didnt know the only thing guns do is kill people. Be glad I havent obtained one illegally, carry concealed, sell drugs, and rob houses. I guess those are the people that deserve more rights than me? Come on now.
 
snack

snack - I think T is trying to be polite and I think what he has said sounds real fair.........just a 3rd party view here....

PS........you wax your eyebrows............what may I ask for....aerodynamics?

Take care .............good luck :D

I never pick sides on a one sided story - that is only fair stance.... I don't think anyone has any ill feelings for you, just some of us speak in different tones....... honestly -good luck
 
my fault Ro,

its hard to tell how people mean things in print. Ill be the first one to admit, I have alot to learn, and by no means am I perfect.

I do respect Derius's view, I would agree with him, retreat as possible, make your life as hassle free as possible by not shooting someone.

But bad people are out there, it wasnt meant to be a deadly confrontation with this fat guy and his boxer, I guess. But god damnit, would someone please admit there was cause to fear for my life in this situation? I highly doubt if any of you were in my situation you would be so defensive of this guy swinging a cane at you. man i shouldnt even be calling it a cane cause it wasnt, it was...come on my fellow rednecks, help me out with some terminology here?...cause a cane implys an old guy who needs it to walk...this was a beat down bar. and by no means was he slow, or handicapped, or jolly. this guy wanted to harm me. and really i was so scared of my head getting beat in, i did the only thing i could which was to run.
let me ask this hypothetical question...if i had ran, like you all are suggesting, and the boxer attacked my feet opening up my ankles into a bloody mess of hamburger, what should i have done?
how was i to be able to predict at that time, that dog wouldnt have done that? if you can give me a good way to get out of that situation without inflicting injury, id be impressed.

and why do i wax my eybrows? cause i dont like monobrows l8-) <-----
 
I done gone and took the Bush/Cheney sticker off my pickup truck since they done gone and opened up a can of whoop tail on those carpetbagging yankee gun snatchers last November. Somebody stole my yeller ribbon magnet one night outside the bar, so I went down to TJ's Lumber and bought me some yeller latex and painted the doublewide yeller with a roller. I had to thin out that gallon of paint quite a bit to get the front done, and then I was out of money. I still had a spot on the bottom that needed covering, so I pulled the trash can over there and filled it up with beer cans I was saving for the Christmas tree, and I took one of my cowboy boots off the fence to help cover that bare spot up. It looks like Dallas now!

What the tarnation is a metrosexual anyway? I guess I need to go down the road a piece and ask Aunt Mathilda. She watches the Springer Show, so she's educated about that kind of thing. :D

When I was in the Navy, I was assumed to harbor prejudice based on my Southern accent. After a while I became friends with the men who had prejudged me. The best tonic for prejudice is familiarity, because the foundation of prejudice is ignorance. Some of the finest men I know love to restore old tractors, plow a field, and grow a crop. Several of the same men also practice a bit of law and medicine on the side. With a license. Some would call them ignorant. Some would call them enlightened. It all depends on your perspective. Cultural slurs of any kind, as well as other slurs on the internet invariably have the opposite effect than what the person who types the slur has in mind. A slur speaks volumes about he who has spoken it, and nothing about he to whom it was directed.
 
I wasnt scared of what would happen to me because I had a thick coat on
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I would be. A thick coat isn't going to help you if something get's it's jaw around an extended wrist or hand - or under that coat hem in the groin area, the legs etc. If you are unfortunate enough to get knocked on the ground or trip over something you might be serious trouble as well.

As far as "retreating from threats" goes; this is all well and good in the cases where it is a certainty you can outrun your attacker. But it is not wise to turn your back on someone with a firearm, knife, club or other deadly weapon. And do not make the mistake of "running away" from a large dog; if the animal is intent on attacking you, you are not going to outrun it.
 
hey snack...

If you go back to my first post I think I expressed that like you I consider a cane or any object to it's like - able to put a hurt on me... I am behind you on that one 100%. I think I would be showing off my 9mm to this guy if he was in range to end my life with a kick *ss stick. Sorry if any of my other postings got you mad.....just having fun as I hope you took it.... You sound like a good guy and I wish you the best....

:D
 
Hey Ro, yeah you did say that. I mean, if I did brandish to this guy and he backed off, and ran away. Would I be wrong? To me that isnt a bad outcome. After all I was the one attacked, I didnt provoke the attack. I mean if I was mouthing off to someone, then it wouldnt be justified.

See thats what I dont understand. I have been taught in my training to only draw to kill, but so many real life situations may only requiring showing whats in store for someone threatening you? WHat are your views on that?

ANd thanks black iron, Im not a girl by any stretch, I am pretty sensitive though ; ) I can be caught having a wet eye during sad movies. Does that make me a girl?
 
See thats what I dont understand. I have been taught in my training to only draw to kill, but so many real life situations may only requiring showing whats in store for someone threatening you? WHat are your views on that?

"Draw to kill" is probably overstating it.

If you are in fear of imminent, unavoidable grave bodily harm or death, then the threat of deadly force is justified. It depends on the situation as to whether or how quickly the threat goes to a de-escalation, or a discharge of the firearm.

If you had drawn and sent him running, you'd have wanted to be the first one to call the cops, and explain how you had to draw your pistol to fend off a crazy guy coming after you with a stout stick - rather than him calling first and explaining to them that some crazy guy ran up to him, while he was minding his own business out walking his beloved and well-behaved dog, and waved a gun in his face.
 
Yeah mvpel, I would have defnitely have called the police, and I would have told the truth. Im not one to believe many truisms, but I always think the truth will set you free.

So, maybe I wouldnt have shot him 100%, but I would have drawn on him because I really did fear for my life. Now if he backed away and restrained his dog I would have backed away too and went the other way. Now, if he kept coming at me, then thats putting me in a difficult situation, where I really dont know what I would do unless I was in that situation. I mean, someone that is coming at you with a gun drawn on them? Your life really IS in danger and you might have to use deadly force.

I hope I dont run into this guy again though.
 
MV is right on...

Situation dictates........... that was pounded into my head and I am sure my last two words of life will be whispering......... SITUATION DICTATES....

But how true the two words are..... and for them I thank the instructors of: USAF Basic Training, Security Police Academy, Air Base Ground Defense School, Firearms and Training Instructors and schools, USAF GLCM School, US Army Rangers Platoon Confidence Training School, and................... sorry just a little carried away :D
 
See thats what I dont understand. I have been taught in my training to only draw to kill, but so many real life situations may only requiring showing whats in store for someone threatening you? WHat are your views on that?
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Well I'm not Rojoe but I'll try:

It's hard to get the exact meaning from some written words. But to me you seem to view brandishing death wielding power as something to do earlier than a last resort. IF that is true, I think your view is wrong. Since you asked, here's what I would do.

If unarmed I would do just like you did except not yell as much. That isn't a criticism, I'm just quieter by nature.

If armed I would warn the owner that his dog was threatening my dog and/or me. I would retreat if I could do so safely. I would NOT try and out run a dog, even if I wasn't carrying another dog. If the dog got to where attack seemed inevitable, I would draw and shoot the dog until it stopped. At that point if the owner decided to assume the responsibility of attacking, I would again try and retreat, including running since people attack differently than dogs. And again if there seemed to be NO OTHER WAY of avoiding getting beat with a cane, I would shoot him.

So you see my criterion for pulling the gun is not dependent on how mad I am or what would embarass me the least, it is simply to not shoot until there is no other choice. That's what I would do.
 
Well, in my state, you can use deadly force if you're in

-imminent
-reasonable
-fear
-of death or serious bodily injury
-to yourself or another person

These vary slightly from state to state, so check your state's law - the specific wording. For example, some states don't allow you to use deadly force to protect someone else; some only yourself and kinship or spouse, and some only yourself. Also, most states (eastern states) require you to retreat first if possible before using deadly force. Other states (in the west mainly) do not have a duty to retreat before the use of deadly force. In any event, in most if not all states, the key factors will typically boil down to *reasonableness* and *imminence*. The reasonableness (of the fear of harm) is highly fact-dependent, and based on any and ALL facts and circumstances that one in your shoes might typically consider. The imminence had to do with how quickly or imminently is the wielded force being threatened against you?

-As for being justified in shooting his dog, yes, you would have been. The legal requirements for deadly force are vs. humans only, not property as animals are considered in the law's eyees, and shooting another's property to protect your own is *probably* going to be considered justified, *especially* considering the fact that said property has deadly jaws that could easily and quickly turn from your dog to YOU.

-As for you shooting him, the imminence and reasonableness inquiries are inextricably tied together. First note that most police and security training on the use of force & force continuum teaches that "contact weapons", in MOST circumstances, are considered to warrant the use of deadly force against them. "Contact weapons" are those things which the attacker must contact your body with, coupled with the force of his swing or thrust, in order to injure you. The include knives and other edged weapons, bricks, clubs, canes, etc. Depending on certain facts and circumstances, including the size of the contact weapon, the size and strength and apparent agility of the wielder, whether the contact is edged or blunt, and also depending on whether YOU yourself are armed or not, deadly force is usually but not always justified in confronting a wielder of a contact weapon. The reason you being armed or not matters is because, even if a contact weapon is a less-than-lethal weapon, such as a stun gun, if it incapacitates you, it still allows the attacker to then gain control of YOUR gun (or other deadly weapon) by incapacitating you temporarily; and of course with which he can then kill you. So you are actually sometimes MORE justified to USE deadly force when you yourself are armed with a deadly weapon. This only comes up though when attackers weapon is clearly non-deadly, such as a stun gun. It does not apply to other edged weapons or blunt weapons. He could EASILY have killed you with that cane for example, by 1st, incapacitating you with 1 or more blows, then continued beating you to death after unconsciousness. As to the imminence of the threat, said training usually teaches that a wielder of a contact weapon can "close" a distance of about 7 yards (21 feet) in 2 seconds, and that's about how much time one would need to take any useful defensive measure to employ the defensive weapon, such as a gun. For example, a well-trained gunny can fairly easily draw and "mozambique" someone (3 shots) in 2 seconds. However, this guy being fat and slow, the reasonableness and imminence would more likely rquire you to wait until he's just a few feet from you before using deadly force, coupled with clearly raising up the contact weapon in preparation for a blow, and angry or threatening facial expressions, gestures, and general demeanor. And 1 more thing....whether your state has a duty to retreat or not, retreating if possible is always a good idea because the extent to which you can retreat will always be factored into the reasonableness inquiry in a juror's mind, regardless of how he or she is instructed in what state law is.

P.S. I like Nader a lot. I don't like all of his ideas, but I like most of them. Glad to have a fellow "liberal" on board with gun rights issues - welcome.

P.P.S. My previous post on this topic makes no sense, as Blues Man split up the thread, and it was responsive to the other topic.
 
Snacktrack:

Quick advice here.

"We NEVER shoot to kill, we shoot to live"
I suggest you repeat that 10 times every time you put on your weapon.

That's your story, STICK TO IT!

All the CCW classes I ever heard of, emphasize that we shoot to STOP
a deadly attack. GOT IT?

Now it just so happens that the most effective way to achieve this
is a variation of the Mozambique Tap. Generally kind of fatal.
Oh well.

While pepper spray MAY be a good intermediate option,
it is not a cure-all, it does NOT stop all men and beasts, and a
gust of wind puts it in your own face. (I KNOW!)

I've been chased by boxers: bone, muscle and teeth.
If you have a similar situation again, after trying to back off,
KILL THE DARN DOG! He is without a doubt a higher threat than
the bad-tempered fat man.

Don't let ANYBODY tell you a cane is not a deadly weapon.
I have a cane from Cold Steel. It's fiberglass, rigid as steel,
and I could pound somebody into pulp with it.

These laws on "retreat", where applicable, seem based on the
premise of morans doing a dance routine from WEST SIDE STORY.
Two men, or groups, comparably able, and equally at fault.

Avoidance of conflict has GOT to be part of any stategy,
but I personally have been in situations where the option was
not fight or flight, but fight or DIE.

Edison
 
Regarding drawing, but not using the weapon, AKA brandishing......

The presentation of the weapon itself is the application of lethal force. This is why armed robbery is a more serious crime than theft. This is also why brandishing is a crime.

That being said, if I felt my life was in imminent danger, I would draw. When my sights were aligned, I would shoot. During this second and a half, I would make myself a moving target at a diagonal to the threat. I want him to have to track me. If my attacker was turning to flee when my sights came into alignment, I would hold my fire and seek cover. The reason I would seek cover is simple. He may be doing the sameand drawing HIS gun. When you draw a gun, you up the ante to only a few choices:
1. Run or I will shoot you.
2. Shoot me before I shoot you.
3. Continue your attack and hope I don't shoot you.
4. Continue your attack and get shot.
Your gun, when introduced into a conflict gives your attacker only those choices. The gun has effectively narrowed your options to a split second decision based on your attacker's behavior.
Once the threat is cleared, I would retreat and call law enforcement to the scene. I would never pull my gun to try to frighten an attacker away. Never.

I have been fortunate to never have to fire a shot in anger as a civilian. I have not been so fortunate that I did not have to draw my gun. I realized after the fact that my drawing that gun placed my fate in my attacker's hands. My fate was based on my actions, which were based on his decisions. I am supremely grateful that when I had to draw a weapon, my attacker made the correct choice.

I was and am in agreement that a cane is a weapon that is capable of killing. My point, however, is if you are not struck, and you kill your attacker, you must then be able to prove that he was attacking you with lethal force. Being caught on video would be lucky, but most survellience video is a series of still pictures every second or so. What you need may not be there. I am not saying that you should take a hit. I am saying that you should consider retreat an option. It worked. Since you are alive to enjoy another day, you may want to consider your options to prevent yourself from being in the same predicament again.

I pulled the Bush/Cheney sticker off because I got a great deal on a Eat More Possum sticker and had to have a place to put it. You have to keep your stickers current with the times you know! (Tongue firmly in cheek)
 
Another CYA idea. If you're ever in a really bad situation (like that), where someone is threatening you, you need to say very loudly, over and over, so that bystanders can hear you (if there are bystanders present), this exact phrase:

"Get away from me; I'm armed....If you threaten me, I'll shoot you."

I recommend practicing this until its second nature, so that you don't do something stupid under stress, such as substitute the word kill in the place of the word shoot. It lets the witnesses know (and thus the jury) that you gave ample warning, that you percieved yourself to be threatened, that you asked to be left alone, etc. It's a good phrase, IMO. Perhaps there are better ones still.
 
OK now, those are some REALLY great responses. I can see why you guys have so many posts. Just remember, look at my #of posts, I am a newbie. I can tell that First Freedom, and Xavier know their ****. One thing though Xavier, you claim:

I would never pull my gun to try to frighten an attacker away. Never.
Click to expand...

yet, you list your attackers first option:

1. Run or I will shoot you.
Click to expand...

those kinda contradict each other. im not trying to argue with you, but it seems that you are drawing to scare him away. I realize that you are only drawing because you feel your life is in imminent danger. But, if you draw and he DOES run, you wont shoot, so in effect you are drawing to scare him away. if i am misunderstanding you please do correct me.

Hey First Freedom, good to see another Liberal on a gun board, go figure???! Im not going to even validate black iron's remark with a response because its pure ignorance.

Also, its interesting you say to warn the attacker your armed, I was taught not to do that by my firearms instructor. Hmmm, well actually he showed me a video where it was a woman in the house, and someone was breaking in and she was shouting, I have a gun and I will shoot if you dont leave. ANd he told me, dont EVER do that. Maybe thats a different case.

Really, in my case there was no time to say that. This guy was RUNNING at me with his cane. He was initially only 25 feet away when the dog bolted towards me, but he was only about 10 feet away when he raised the cane and came to me.

Anyway, I really appreciate the detailed responses, I am learning alot here.
 
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