I Was Attacked - Would use of force be legally justified?

thats a very interesting article, but the only similarities between my situation and his is that we were both walking our dogs, and it ends there. If that was me in that situation, I would have called the police and let them handle it. In the state of Delaware, you may defend the life of the person with you using deadly force.

This guy persued the guy upon hearsay from his 13 year old daughter. It wasnt like he actually saw this guy raping a person, nor did he see any act of violence. I wouldnt definitely say this guy made some pretty stupid decisions, none that I would have made. If my wife ran up to me and said, this guy is raping our daughter, then I would make it my business, but I wouldnt persue and kill some guy I didnt know, that wasnt threatening me or any of my family members, and whom I didnt even witness harming anyone.

That guy has bad hearing and bad balance, and carries a gun? Thats pretty scary.
 
I realize it is not a situation such as yours but I just ran across it and it required a judgement call on self defense while walking a dog. If it were to happen in NY this guy would be going away for 10 to 15 years, no doubt.

kenny b
 
I think when I get my concealed permit, I will be much more calm, and focused, I wont have to yell and scream, because I know if I really had to, I could defend off an attacker.
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This is what bothers me. The gun has no magic to it. It will not make you calm, it will not give you better judgement, and it will not give you a free pass to travel where you wouldn't if unarmed. All it can do is punch a hole in a threat.

Do you really think shooting the guy would have resulted in a better outcome than what did happen? The cops would have gotten there quicker, but you would have stayed longer.

And one last question. Why are you so focused on shooting the fat guy who needs a cane to get around? The dog is a bigger threat and would still be a threat if you shot his owner.
 
In your first post you said you would have shot him "100%" if you had a gun.

However, you did not have a gun. He did not strike you, not because you had a gun, but because you retreated. A CCW does not give you any more rights that you had before you got a CCW. It simply gives you the means of saving your life.

The evidence is there, by the events themselves, that the best response to this incident was to de-escalate, not to pull a gun and take a life. Taking a life is irrevocable. Even if you survive criminal and civil charges, you will still have yourself and your own doubts to live with. You will loose friends. You will likely loose your job. Your life will never again be the same. It will be very much like loosing your virginity as you enter that group of people who have knowingly and willfully taken a life, whether justified or not. You will never see things the same way again.

Consider, if you will, that you would have had to put your dog down to draw your gun. You were in a bad spot, because you were there. I'm not saying you did not have a right to be there, just that you had a choice of whether to be there or not.You might want to look at what put you in this predicament, and seek a realistic solution to the problem, not simply proclaim your rights to walk your dog. Chances are, at some time the problem will reoccur.

Get a copy of those tapes before they are erased. Most are gone in 24 hours.

Carrying a gun doesn't give you any extra rights, but it darned sure gives you some extra responsibilities.
 
I think you guys make some really good points. However, you are getting the wrong idea about the fat guy, he did not need a cane to get around, it was solely to hit people, this guy RAN after me. He just didnt catch me because he was fat.

Also, I walk to this park everyday, I see other dogs every time I go there. The city had tons of dog owners, all need to walk their dogs, and I encounter friendly people everyday. Some big dogs bark and try to come towards my dog, and my dog barks back too, but those owners have them on a leash. You have to remember, I have walked my dog twice a day for 2 years to this same park. How is it that I am looking for trouble?

I think the point about whether the gun will make me make better decisions and that is what worries you is a good point. Of course having something in my pocket that could kill someone will affect my decision making. How could it not? WHen I said I would have 100% shot him, I would have done so if absolutely necessary. Having a ccw would only make me be even more critical because the outcome is irreversible. I yelled and screamed because thats all I could do. I needed to let that guy know he needed to restrain his dog.

Defintely, I couldnt have asked for a better outcome. But, if I had done it again, not knowing what the outcome would be if I had been carrying, I would not have believed that I could have ran away because I thought the dog was going to chase me and attack me.
 
When I first started carrying ( a long time ago), it felt, I dunno, kinda wierd. Kind of a mix of feeling empowered, yet at the same time, nervous. Hard to put into words.

Very quickly, though, reality set in. I realized that carrying a weapon is a very serious and weighty responsibility. It is not something to do capriciously. I say these things to no one in particular, but to those who are reading this thread and maybe considering entering into the world of carrying a firearm. It is NOT fun. It is NOT a game. It is very SERIOUS business.

I've only brandished (or even shown) my weapon one time in the 14+ years I've carried. This was a situation where I was being run off the expressway (deserted - no one else on the road but him and me) by a pickup truck and I could not get away . . . either I slowed WAY down and he continued his aggression or I speeded up and he continued to pursue. Finally, I pulled into the emergency lane and, as he pulled into me, I simply held up my pistol.

He LEFT. I did not have to point it at him, I just made him aware that I was armed. That ended the aggression and the confrontation. Maybe I was wrong, but we'll never know what would have happened had the other driver succeeded in running me off the road or had he forced me to a complete stop.

My point is two fold:

One, carrying a firearm is a very serious affair.
Two, pulling a firearm should only be done in EXTREME circumstances.

Firing that weapon - whew - that I hope I never have to do.

Snacktrack, you did the right thing by vacating. You are doing the right thing by taking the measured steps to provide for your defense. Just be aware that the gun can cause you problems, even if you are trying to do the right thing. Some choices are not easy ones.
 
Another point to consider is that in some states (like Ohio) one has a duty to retreat, except in one's home. I don't necessarily agree with this law, but it is worth considering when you are weighing the possibility of going armed.

Legally, if a guy shook a stick at me and said he was going to kill me in the middle of a park, I would have to try to get away. Legally, if there is a means of escape, you have to take it. Even if you are not legally obliged to flee, sometimes it is a good idea. If you don't, you are going to be in jail defending yourself from a prosecutor who will say you were out looking for someone to shoot and that you escalated the confrontation when you drew your firearm.

If you were packing that day and did the same thing, I would call that a victory!
 
Too many things wrong with this story. If you were having to hold your little dog up over your head to keep it away from the big mean dog...you would have been more concerned with the danger from the big mean dog than from the big fat man with the cane. (Can't believe I just typed that)
Boxers can knock a full grown man over; I have seen it happen.
If you do end up shooting the big fat man with the unruly cane during a future he-could-have-broken-my-arm-altercation, I would recommend telling the police the boxer went for your throat or something, because I don't care what state you live in, based on what you have told us...this one would be awfully hard to explain.
 
anti gun troll? please explain.
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I just wanted to say, you are obviously not a troll. Thanks for keeping the discussion going. It's a great discussion on when to apply lethal force and when you must find another way. Truely, the only people we can all agree on as people who should have applied lethal force are in the cemetery. Every other person can be armchair commandoed to death.

The nice thing about these kind of discussions is that old farts like myself can reaffirm to ourselves what the reality of ugly confrontations are if you are packing. I have carried concealed since 1991 with a hiatus for about a year or so around 1993. After a while you kind of accept things, forget what you thought you had cemented in your mind, and lose your focus. Heck, I've been in a few situations where I forgot that I had the gun to fall back on if needed! Discussing the nuances of this kind of encounter is good for us all.

I knew you would not get rid of your dog. :) Suggesting such was simply a means of getting you to rethink your priorities. I wouldn't give up my dog either. I'm not sure I am willing to go to prison for him though.
 
What was the outcome of investigation from PD? was there any? If this guy threatened your life and said so.......and used a cane and tried to swing for the cheap seats........I think the PD might be looking into it???? am I wrong or did I read or understand wrong? ;)

PS...... I am a redneck and darn proud of it.......just might have a different view of the term redneck as to what you might think it is in my area? We think of it as an average Joe. A guy whom loves life, likes a cold beer after a long hot day of labor at work. I defend my land and family with a calm mild manner until someone blows my mailbox up. I often park my car in the front yard and wash it there too. I often drive and old rusty Chevrolet which still runs real good, I hunt for food and eat what I shoot, mind my own business and help the neighbors as they do me. Yes, I graduated high school, served in the military, did some college and even have all my teeth too... Yep, I am a redneck.....and darn proud :D When you say redneck what do you mean???? ;)

God Bless America :D
 
Lol, now I feel welcome. When you said "troll" I was thinking of the little ugly guys who live under bridges. But I looked up the word and saw the other definitions:

Slang. To patrol an area in search for someone or something

To fish for by trailing a baited line from behind a slowly moving boat.

So now I get it. Being a city boy, I never heard that word used like that before.

Next time I run into this guy though I am going to give him your numbers to be his defense attorney. You guys have painted a picture of him in a red furry suit and hat, being jolly with his reindeer with a big bright red nose. I mean, who could have blasted away someone like that?

And no I would never give up my dog, since I do not have any kids yet, she is my kid. I was most worried about protecting her than myself.

Well, as far as the investigation goes, the police said there isnt much they can do, they did tell me to go back there again to see if I could see him again and then call them right away. I go out of work early and was going to the range to meet with my firearms instructor anyway to help me sight my laser grips, and that was more appealing to me than seeing this guy againg and bringing my rage back.

Ill tell you how I really feel. I did want this guy to pay for being so f'in ignorant. To try and beat me with a whoop ass stick because I "cursed at him" makes me terribly angry. I know its not right, but just making suddenly throw his hands up say, "now wait a minute, I didnt mean that man" while staring down the barrel of my .357 snubbie would have been a great revenge. I realize thats a no no, but I dont have to explain that in a gun forum, do I?

Ill tell you it was a good experience cause now I can be more aware of dogs not on a leash. All you guys recommending pepper spray, I mean if I had just threatened to kick his dog and the guy wanted to beat my head in, if I actually emptied a can of pepper spray in the dogs eyes, what do you think he would have done? That could have been a mess.

Oh and for the record, redneck to me means:
-Drives a pickup truck with support the troops ribbons on it, and a Bush/Cheney sticker
-spends more on guns than his car payment
-owns a cowboy hat
-drinks enough beer to open his own aluminum recycling plant
-without wal-mart he would shrivel up and die

; ) these are just for fun, and dont take them personally if one or all apply to you
feel free to make fun of my metrosexual cityboy self lol. actually i spent more on my 340pd and laser grips than 3 of my car payments, but damn Xavier, i saw your gun collection and thought I was directed to the National Handgun Museum's Website. geez.
 
snacktrack said:
...feel free to make fun of my metrosexual cityboy self...
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Hmm... Seems like you've already done that to yourself. What are we gonna do... call you a metrosexual city boy? ;)

I'm just pleased that you have shared this incident and allowed us to consider it and what we would do if in your shoes. The legalities of a force-on-force encounter are only one consideration. Other facets such as awareness and tactics are best posted in our Tactics and Training forum.
 
. . . told a co-worker I was a redneck

I told a co-worker I was a redneck and she cracked up and said "no way." That is the way I see myself, though. Maybe being a redneck is a state of mind. ;)

I know its not right, but just making suddenly throw his hands up say, "now wait a minute, I didnt mean that man" while staring down the barrel of my .357 snubbie would have been a great revenge.
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These are the temptations one must guard against when carrying a deadly weapon, be it a gun, a knife, an ASP . . . whatever. We do not have the luxury of acting out our fantasies. Instead, we must become more sober in our approach to things that would otherwise irritate, frustrate, or infuriate us.

Again, serious business, this Right To Keep And Bear Arms. :)
 
picon_af_redneck_rap_lrg.jpg


The Redneck Rapper - an amusing Shockwave film. They're liberals, so the take a swipe at George Bush while they're at it.
 
snacktrack
Welcome,

I no longer have a dog but I do walk in the neighborhood.

In case none have mentioned it, OC is a good idea.
In case none have mentioned it, a cell phone is more than a good idea.
What ever kind of tactical folder is legal in your area is a good idea.
In addition to my CH I carry all of the above when I walk or go biking.

Back when I had dogs and was out and about with them the early phase of what you described happened more than I can remember.
A better course of action is to always be aware you and your pet could run into an aggressive dog that's off leash at anytime and be prepared to move away from the problem. I'm 100% sure getting in a yelling contest never improves things but it is a great way to turn a 2 bit bit-h into something lots worse.


S-
 
Oh and by the way, Master Blaster. I did take the training course with Dan Lindbergh, from the Delaware Pistol Club. In fact he helped me sight my laser grips tonight at the range. Do you know him?
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Yes, thats who I would have suggested. I'm a member at DSPC.

Have you considered joining the club???

As for the Jerk, Pepper spray is your friend, Did Dan make a similar suggestion????

And if it comes to it shoot the dog first, That will take the fight right out of the fatman. The police in DE like to shoot aggressive dogs especially in the city of Wilmington.

Remember its better to de-escalate if possible, lethal force is a last resort.
 
just for fun....

Darn it....... I only have one on your list of-- if I was a Redneck........ I still think I am and could argue why but heck that's not all that fun.

A Metrosexual to me: Drives a sportscar to impress women whom think a good man has lots of money. Money is most important....she can over-look his small criminal record... ha ha ,,,, A metro also gets his nails groomed and his hair is a 20 minute morning project. He likes only the expensive brand name clothing lines, drinks bottled water like his tongue is on fire, takes 2 parking spots cause his car deserves it, pays money to a big name gym to work out or shows up to be seen at the gym, eats only at the expensive establishments, pays so much on his condo payment he can't put much furniture inside, takes 2-3 trips a year to Aspen to ski or be seen at Aspen, hates anything about the Bush team, doesn't talk to his neighbors much cause they seem a little lower class than himself, and last......most of the metrosexuals I have had the honor to meet hate guns and anything that bleeds or makes a mess. Just having fun here no need to empty and reload........ take care ;)
 
MasterBlaster, is there something wrong with your question-mark key???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Inquiring minds want to know. :D
 
rednecks and queer eye for the straight guy

Hey you guys are alot of fun here! I can call you rednecks and jab you guys a little and no harm done ; )

Your descriptions of metrosexuals are a little dated, so let me bring you up to speed on what they do nowadays
-they have progessed to paying 300$ a bottle of champagne at a trendy night club just to sit at the VIP and pay for it on their credit card.
-THey also only drive german cars, and only listen to music with little or no words(techno)
-Lifting weights and going tanning are top priorities
-nails done and eyebrows waxed.
-actually they could care less about george bush, lucky if they know who he is.

Lol although Im am not any of these, certainly alot of my friends are, well....I do get my eyebrows waxed, and doing my hair can take well over 20 min when I want it to look nice. but...I have a hell of a gorgeous girlfriend who is a Maxim model. ; ) but be careful, she packs a .380 guys.

Anyway, masterblaster, I am thinking of joining the club. Dan was the first person I called after this incident. He is quite a character for being 76 years old, I would not want to be at the wrong end of his revolver.
I realize I need to befriend a good attorney before something drastic should happen. Where to start though?? THere are a billion attorneys in the phone book. Any suggestions?

Also, what the hell is OC?? I cant figure that one out. PS, pepper spray..know that, but..youll have to help me out here.
I do need to work on my temper, I realize I have about 90 days to do so, lol or I could be a danger. I honestly think I would only do so if I really thought my life was in danger. Alot of what I wrote was blowing off steam. You know after a bar conflict you come home and yell to your wife o buddies, man, I shoulda cracked that guys face in, but you really are just reveling in your fantasies of teaching some drunk punk a lesson, but its only talk. I am not talk thought when it would come to defending my girlfriend, or familiy member or my dog.
Is there a section in these forums where there are posts about close calls like mine that I can read??
 
You know SnackTrack, I'm not trying to get on you here, but a gun may not be your best bet. You have made several comments throughout your posts that are alarming.

Well, thats how I feel about having five shots of +P JHP's in a super light piece of death wielding power in my front pocket. I believe I deserve that right.
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A super light peice of death weilding power? Is that the reason you are getting a gun? You also made other statements, that you would have "shot them dead" and "would not have retreated like I did last night". Among others.

This is DEFINATELY the wrong mindset to have when carrying a gun. You are a liability to the PRO-GUN movement. If I were a lawyer, prosecuting you in a case where you shot someone, I could use your own words from your posts to paint a "VERY" different picture from the little scared doggie owner, to the person who went and got a gun out of revenge, NOT for self defense, and carried it HOPING someone would accost them again, and BURY you in jail for the rest of your life.....

Remember it is your RESPONSIBILITY to retreat, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, not to stand and fight just because you have a gun now. And the fact that you were OBVIOUSLY able to run from the "huge fat guy with a cane", and didn't, but instead took a stand and shot him.........wow.....hate to be your defense lawyer.....
 
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