I Was Attacked - Would use of force be legally justified?

S

snacktrack

New member
what just happened to me

Hello all, I just wanted to share what happened to me just tonight, Im still very pissed and also very thankful. I just put in my application for a concealed deadly weapons permit yesterday for the state of delaware. You must state reasons why you think you need to carry. One of my reasons as it appears verbatim on my application was as follows:

I have a small dog, and living in a small apartment with no yard in the city I must walk her twice a day. Usually she wakes me up very early before the sun comes up around 5am to walk her. I have to walk several blocks to the park near the river just in order to get to the nearest grassy section. I must walk with my one arm handling the leash. My dog cannot run very fast so it would be very difficult to escape an attack. On one occasion I had a man come right up to my face telling me he was going to kill me while walking my dog. Thankfully there was a hedge between us and he eventually left me alone. I definitely feared for my life during that incident. I also like to take my dog out after work around 8pm or before I go to bed. I fear serious physical injury or death.

Well, tonight that scenario became a reality. My daily routine, was I came home, but I was a little early today, fed my pug, and put her harness on to take her for a walk. I have to walk her to this open grassy area behind a large office complex, its not technically a park, but it looks like one. I am walking my dog, and as I came to the end of the sidewalk, there is another dog owner with a very large boxer. I thought the dog was on a leash because he was standing next to the owner, all the sudden the boxer bolts towards my pug to attack her. I wrapped the leash around my wrist as fast as I could and yanked my dog, who is only about 20 lbs as high into the air as I could. While catching her over my head, the other dog leaps into the air at her and starts biting at my arm to get to her. I have her held over my head to protect her. And the dog backs down. Ready to kick the dog in the face, I scream at the owner, if you dont get your dog I am going to kick the **** out of him. At that point the owner had not done a damn thing to restrain his dog. Instead of getting his dog, he wields a large walking cane and raises it over his head while yelling, " you aint gonna do a ****in thing" nd tried to swing at my head. I ran away with my dog over my head to avoid getting hit with the cane. Once the owner finally put a leash on the dog, I flipped out yelling and screaming how he needs to put a leash on his dog, and if my dog had been bit, he would have been in big trouble. This guy more concerned with being yelled at says, "you aint gonna curse at me like that and begins to chase me with the dog trying to beat me with the cane."

Luckily he was very overweight, he was at least 280 and I managed to stay ahead of him even with my dog on my shoulder. I ran out of the park, because I feared he would sick the dog on me. I wasnt scared of what would happen to me because I had a thick coat on, but I was scared the dog would get ahold of my dogs head, most certainly causing a fatal bite to my small pug. I was so extremely pissed off and I called the police when I got to my apartment. They took way too long to get there, about 30- 40 min. Once the police got there, I explained the situation, and I also said I was grateful I was so lucky, and that the ******* was lucky too because I had just applied my my concealed permit, and if I had been carrying tonight, I would have 100% shot him dead. I bought a 340pd a few weeks ago, and its been tempting to carry it, but I am waiting till I can legally carry it so its been sitting in my drawer.

The cop says to me, "well if he tried to beat you with that walking cane, he says "that could easily be a deadly weapon, you would have been well within your right to use deadly force against him." I felt good hearing that from the cop. I told him, if I had slipped on the ice, or if he was able to run faster I would have most certainly have sustained some kind of injury. So, ironically I am glad I didnt have my weapon on me, because I fear I would have killed him in my defense, I had no way of knowing what the outcome would have been when he wielded that cane. And it wasnt no skinny little cane, that thing had some heft to it, it was about 2 in. in diameter with metal caps at the ends. That thing would have split open my skull easily. I am just so pissed off, and I dont want any harm to animals, but people who use their animals to attack people need to be taught a lesson. I am a huge animal lover, and I love my dog as my own child and would defend her life with my own. I am so grateful that she wasnt injured at all.

So anyway, I do understand all the various pitfalls with the law that you mention Master Blaster, I live in the same state as you. But what it comes down to, if you have to defend your life, or the lives of a family member or loved one, girlfriend. Do you want to be empty handed or have a fighting chance? Thats the whole idea of carrying a concealed handgun. I hope that nothing like that happens again, but I cant get my permit fast enough. I want to be prepared for the unexpected. Nobody gets into their car thinking they will get into a serious accident, but you still put your seat belt on dont you? Well, thats how I feel about having five shots of +P JHP's in a super light piece of death wielding power in my front pocket. I believe I deserve that right.

Oh, and you all might find it interesting that I am a liberal, democrat, whatever you call it, and I voted for Nader. But, I believe in the right to carry for sane citizens who undergo a training course and who respect the awesome responsibilty of owning a handgun. My girlfriend has already obtained hers concealed permit and I urge her to carry it everywhere she goes. Anyone else have any violent confrontations like this where you would have pulled the trigger to defend yourself, but somehow you luckily escaped it?
 
"application for a concealed deadly weapons permit"

Dose your state issue a concealed permit for non-deadly weapons too?

Actually your first choice is to always retreat as you did, any out must be taken. Your thinking of putting up a stand over such an issue is flawed and will get you in trouble one day. This is only my opinion.

kenny b
 
first choice is to always retreat

Yes, I agree one should AVOID confrontations when such action is reasonable. However, if I was in this predicament and I had turned to walk away and the other party pursued me, THEN I think it is time to prepare for the confrontation.

Most likely, if snacktrack had been armed, had walked away, had then been pursued, and finally if snacktrack had stopped and produced a weapon, the "fat man" would have turned tail and left . . . as it should be.

I don't think good citizens have a moral duty to run away, run away, run away at all costs. At some point, each person must decide when the line of "flight v. fight" has been crossed. At that point, fleeing the scene becomes a liability, not an asset.

All I'm saying is, leave the scene if you can, but if you are pursued and the confrontation looks inevitable, turn and find your best defensive position, then take care of the problem . . . cause it obviously is not going away otherwise.

Just my 2cents.
 
Sounds like the cops there are dipsticks and don't know that open carry is legal. What I would do if I were you is, carry a piece of paper with you at all times - either a photocopy of the statute or case opinion that sets forth the legality of open carry, or write a letter to the Attorney General of your state, asking if open carry is legal, and if you get a favorable response, carry that with you, along with the letter you sent. Then, if you are stopped in a vehicle, for example, you might "un-conceal" yourself and produce the AG opinion. What state?
 
Welcome to The Firing Line, snacktrack. :)

I split your post out of the old thread and made it a thread of its own.

-Dave
 
Oh, and you all might find it interesting that I am a liberal, democrat, whatever you call it, and I voted for Nader. But, I believe in the right to carry for sane citizens who undergo a training course and who respect the awesome responsibilty of owning a handgun.

What the governments do is make the training requirements so onerous and expensive that while they maintain the appearance of allowing people to exercise their fundamental human right to self-defense, they deny it in practice through bureacratic means.

The state of Washington has had a concealed-carry licensing system for about 70 years, and have never required training, and their rate of accidental or unjustified shootings by concealed-carry license-holders has proved to be no greater than states which require a 16-hour class.

I absolutely agree that anyone carrying a defensive firearm should get training, but having the government require it as a condition for licensing turns it into merely a screw that bureacrats can tighten at whim.
 
So anyway, I do understand all the various pitfalls with the law that you mention Master Blaster, I live in the same state as you.
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I'm sorry my memory must be failing did we have a conversation or exchange posts here?????????

Perhaps you read my Rottweiler attack thread from a couple of years ago??????? In my case I knew the owner from my neighborhood, and the dog had escaped from the house as we walked by, different than what happened to you.

If this gent threatend me, then chased and swung a cane at me he would have been staring down the barrel of my CCW, and possibly would have been shot. But I would have done my best to diffuse the situation first if possible, since shooting somone can be messy and expensive. Deadly force should only be used as a last resort, and only if you fear for your life. Hopefully the police will find him. If they do he can be charged with assault if you follow through with the complaint.

It sounds like you reacted properly for the most part and neither you or your dog were hurt. As far as the jerk with the boxer and the cane goes he was way out of line. Get a big cannister of pepper spray right away for future walks in the park, you can spray the Boxer and his owner with it if need be. Get an extra cannister and practice spraying a tree or two with it so you know how to use it and the effective range, the kind that shoots a stream is best. Most gunshops will carry pepper spray.

As far as open carry goes its technically legal in DE, but personnaly I dont need to put it to the test, and the reaction of a police officer to you open carring could varry from no reaction at all, to being thrown on the ground disarmed and arrested for creating a disturbance or worse. The later is more likely in the City of Wilmington and much less likely downstate or in the Burbs. But probably depends on the individual officer involved, and wether someone calls in a complaint if they see you. Don't count on the police to know the law.

Have you already taken the training course for CCW, or are you applying prior to taking the course?? If you are going to carry a gun you should know how to use it, and a snubbie (340 PD requires some practice to shoot accurately) also you will need to know how to carry it concealed and be able to draw it effectively.

If you PM me I may be able to help you with the training course since a member of my club is a certified instructor, and charges a reasonable fee for the course. Most likely it will take a month or two for the application to work its way through the process and then another month before you can complete the training and get your permit issued.
 
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You were very upset.....as most would be.....If this were on video then we could give some real hard to beat ideas and solutions. I am in no way saying any of your story is not 100% true but after your heart rate calms and you think of this entire incident will you relate it the same way? Again this is just a question.... Yes, a raised cain used as a weapon against you is a Weapon.... and could and would likely cause great injury - included would be death to you if struck in vital area(s). If you can't retreat and this happens I can only tell you I would defend myself to stop the attack and yes that means up to deadly force... this is only my view on it.
As far as you being upset the police took what you say was 30 or more minutes could mean a lot of things.... But since your calling from the security of home and the incident is over and your not injured do you think the police should drive 100 miles an hour and indanger their own life as well as other citizens? I think not.... It is also likely your not the only call this police dept. had that day. ? I hope this might explain response time for your incident?

To me and most other folks on this forum the fact your liberal or not means little to us when it regards a life and death - realated firearms issue. I am happy no harm was done to you or your pet. Please let us know if the police found the suspect that raised his cain and threatened you and what the outcome was.... best of luck and be safe......... May I also add to Please - Please take training and be very educated on your weapon and all the legal issues involved with carry/concealment/ and Life and death (use of force) within the state you live. Best wishes Rojoe67 :)
 
OK makes sense, BTW I have had a permit since shortly after that post was originally made. Prior to the post I had the 2nd ammendment as my permit as does every citizen as far as I'm concerned. ;)

In addition the Safe School zone wording in the DE law applies as an add on to another offense, as long as you are carrying for a legitimate purpose and not committing any other felony the SSZ does not apply.
 
I don't know this whole story has really got me laughing my @$$ off. The pug, the fat guy waddling along with the cane, his dog, you running along the ice trying not to slip....LoL...it's like a bad movie hahaha

I would have just kicked the crap out of the little bastard. The neighbors got a couple of annoying little bastages, one of them runs around and bites people. He tried to attack me once, but now when he sees me he runs! ;)
 
:) I don't know about kicking "the crap out of the little bastard." I'm assuming your talking about the fat guy's Boxer-dog.

I've got a male Boxer that goes about 75 lbs., not overly huge as dogs go, but he's all muscle and bone. I don't think just anybody'd fair real well if they tried to kick the crap out of him . . . `course, I mean no offense to you personally, PsychoSword, but I kind'a doubt the average man could take on my dog bare-handed (or would that be bare-legged?) and walk away without some meat missing. :D

Again, no offense meant!
 
I think you would have had a hard time defending yourself with a gun while holding your 20 pound dog over your head.

I think you would have had a hard time defending yourself from an attacking dog while holding your 20 pound dog over your head.

I think that you should study up on the legal aspects of applying lethal force before you carry a gun for defense. Where I live, shooting a man threatening you with a cane would be a marked disparity of force. Once you use that gun, you cannot undo what has taken place. You had better be right, and more importantly, able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt you were right.

My suggestions...... Avoid confrontations. Walk your dog somewhere else. If you can't walk your dog without taking the risk of having to apply lethal force, then you need to either get rid of the dog, move, or get a dog that can defend himself. You could consider carrying a SuperSoaker filled with ammonia. That works great when sprayed in a dog's face.

I know you are upset, especially immediately after an adrenaline charged incident like this, but I think you would have been looking at a manslaughter charge had you used your gun. Cops give notoriously bad legal advice to civilians. For that matter, so do laymen such as myself posting on forums. :rolleyes: So, consult your attorney regarding this issue and the application of lethal force. Don't have one? If you carry, you should. Carrying a weapon that will be used to save your life by taking someone elses life is not something that should be taken lightly. Trust me, if you have to use that gun, it will not be inconsequential.

If your dog is so important that you would take this risk, consider who will feed and walk that dog when you are serving your sentence for manslaughter?

edited to add: Anyone consider that this 1 time poster might be an antigun troll?
 
A stout cane is certainly capable of inflicting great bodily harm, or death if it goes upside your head, as is a large dog. That's the usual standard for use of defensive deadly force.
 
I don't know, but he lives in a strange area. Goes outside to walk his dog and somebody says they're going to kill him. Goes out another time and he's got some fat guy and his dog chasing him down the street with a cane. :rolleyes:

Not saying it didn't happen, but the whole thing is just weird.com if ya catch my drift.
 
A stout cane is certainly capable of inflicting great bodily harm, or death if it goes upside your head, as is a large dog. That's the usual standard for use of defensive deadly force.
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This is certainly true. However, after the fat guy is dead, who is going to testify that he was brandishing the cane? The dog? If the fat man cannot be proven to be brandishing the cane, then your justification for taking his life also cannot be proven.
 
Hey there guys. I am so glad to see many many responses to my thread in 24 hours. Wow lets see where to start. I guess I will reply to Xavier first since his is the last comment.

Well, first of all, I do think you have alot of great points, but I will begin with the ones I disagree with. First is, getting rid of my dog is not an option. Like I said, I love that dog like she was my own kid. Imagine if someone told you, get rid of your kids because they cant defend themselves in an attack. Being the guardian, that means you must protect your family, and my family includes my dog. Secondly, I cant walk my dog somewhere else, for those of you that dont live in the concrete jungle you may not understand this. My dog will only go to the bathroom on grass, and the nearest grass is at this park which is still 3 long blocks away. This big open grass park is basically the backyard for the Hercules office complex. As a matter of fact they have surveillence cameras mounted on the roof. I am going to go inside the next time and ask the security guard about them, and what they can pick up. The video evidence would have been a great thing for me if I did in fact had to prove my case.

I want to make it clear, this wasnt a funny situation psycho sword, he was a vicious violent man. It wasnt some old guy shooing me away with his cane, this was a guy bent on cracking my skull open. If he was closer to me, I would have at least got my arm broke trying to deflect the cane. I mean, what am I supposed to do, wait till he is cracking my skull open, on the 2nd or 3rd time to wonder whether my case would hold up in court if I shot him? The whole point is to avoid any bodily harm. And just because its not the situation you played out in your own mind doesnt mean it didnt happen to me. What it comes down to is, I was just trying to walk my dog like I do everyday and I was attacked, and instead of the guy restraining his dog he wanted to beat me with a cane. The state of Delaware allows for the use of deadly force for even a broken arm.

One thing I want to make clear is, this incident didnt happen to any of you, it happened to me. I walk this same path every night and morning, and have done it for about 2 years. I never had a problem like this before. I am extremely lucky things turned out the way they did but I refuse to not go out of my house and not walk my dog, and even get rid of my dog because someone has no respect, and is violent. Im not the violent one. I was totally in the right at every step of the way. All today I pondered different alternate scenarios, and what would I have done if I had in fact been carrying. You all dont love my dog like I do, you werent the one scared your brains were going to be beaten out of your head in a secluded field. You guys didnt see how insanely violent and no respect for anyone this guy had. Its easy to play monday morning quarterback from the sidelines but I was simply very very lucky, and so was this guy.

One thing that makes me nervous is in all my training I have been taught only draw your weapon when you intend to use deadly force. If I had had my revolver I would have definitely have drawn it when he raised his cane and pulled it back to hit me. I would not have retreated like I did last night because the dog was still unrestrained and the worse thing you can do is run from an attacking dog. If he continued to come at me with the cane then I would have shot him, but I do think drawing my weapon would have prevented him from closing in on me. I could have drawn one handed with my dog, in fact I tried it today with her in my other arm.

Of course I dont want to kill anyone, what a legal mess, costing thousands of dollars, and my life would be put on hold. What my question is, what does it take to pull the trigger for you? Do you have to wait till the guy is definitely stabbing you a few times before you pull the trigger? If the guy rears up to punch you do you just take the punch? There are so many things that could turn out diasterous, and some things that may have no consequences, but the thing is, you dont know before it happens what is going to really happen. Pitbulls are illegal to own in my city, but you know what, tons of people have them. WHy do they have them? Whether you want to believe it or not, they have them to inflict injury on others and other dogs. They train them to do it. What if this dog had been a pitbull like that was biting my leg off, then what? Luckily this dog wasnt attacking me so violently I was being injured, he was trying to get at my dog which he couldnt reach over my head.

I know one thing, I have every right to walk my dog, to protect her, and to protect myself. I trust myself in the decisions I make every day and I would trust I would do what is right. If I indeed shot this guy, I really do believe I would be acquitted. Especially if I could have obtained the video from the security cameras. I hear you all saying, find out the specific laws regarding this situation, etc etc. But, what it comes down to in court is convincing the jurors that you were fighting for your life, and they can either agree or not. They dont care what the specific laws are.

The fact that I am going through great measures, taking the training course, putting my name in the paper, getting 5 references, getting fingerprinted, reading books, doing research, practicing with my firearm, thinking through situations as I walk down the street, looking over my shoulder, walking on the opposite side of the street of someone who looks shady to me. I think when I get my concealed permit, I will be much more calm, and focused, I wont have to yell and scream, because I know if I really had to, I could defend off an attacker.

I also wanted to say thanks for all your input guys, before I came lurking in these forums I had the prejudice that everyone would be macho gun crazy rednecks, lol, but most of you guys have some good heads up on your shoulders.

Oh and by the way, Master Blaster. I did take the training course with Dan Lindbergh, from the Delaware Pistol Club. In fact he helped me sight my laser grips tonight at the range. Do you know him?
 
anti gun troll? please explain.
i might be a one time poster in this forum, but I have been reading this forum, glocktalk.com, and other forums, reading up what others more experienced than me recommend. I listen to old timers, I didnt buy a fancy automatic just to look cool, I bought the highest quality, lightest most concealable revolver there is, because after reading dozens of articles and hundreds of posts of these forums, that is what I found to be the most recommended.
I also have a .4o cal S&w tactical that I bought when I turned 21 but its a brick and I cannot carry it on me.

It is just very ironic that something like that happens to me the day after I turn in my cdw application. I needed to talk about it, and so that is why I am a first time poster, I never had the need to post anything, I just obtained information.
 
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