We aren't disagreeing, in that I didn't dispute whether Linotype occurs as an actual material from printing. It does have a composition though and is indeed indicated by name when a hard bullet is recommended. I presume a bullet caster could duplicate the Linotype formula if desired. Again, I find that Lyman clearly indicates the very hard "Linotype" for high pressure and velocity loads. Otherwise they indicate "Lyman #2. Whether one agrees with Lyman is another discussion.
I need a better understanding of lead bullets .
- Thread starter Metal god
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We aren't disagreeing, in that I didn't dispute whether Linotype occurs as an actual material from printing. It does have a composition though and is indeed indicated by name when a hard bullet is recommended. I presume a bullet caster could duplicate the Linotype formula if desired. Again, I find that Lyman clearly indicates the very hard "Linotype" for high pressure and velocity loads. Otherwise they indicate "Lyman #2. Whether one agrees with Lyman is another discussion.
The pressure in the round will be the same whether Linotype or Lyman's #2 is used. The bullet will take up the same amount of space and the difference between a bullet weighing 195 grains or 205 grains is irrelevant. Either way they are much softer than a jacketed bullet. Reloading manuals note which components they used, but rarely does anyone use the exact same brass, primer, and bullet combo as the manual.
Many of the mold manufacturers have varied their molds over the years and there are tons of slight variations of the common molds. These would have a small impact on the pressure of rounds but still irrelevant unless pushing the limits on some hot loads.
Many of the mold manufacturers have varied their molds over the years and there are tons of slight variations of the common molds. These would have a small impact on the pressure of rounds but still irrelevant unless pushing the limits on some hot loads.
Uh, no. How are you going to get the antimony into the lead? Lead melts at about 620 degrees while antimony melts at about 1170 degrees, well above bullet casting temperatures. You don't cast, do you? Guys who cast typically take existing linotype metal and alloy it with some other form of lead to make an alloy that works at the pressure level and velocity they are looking for.
Don
I don't know that anyone is disputing that.
Which is why one should use data for as close as possible for the same type of bullet.
But if it says "Linotype", one should acknowledge that a hard bullet is being implied as a recommendation.
Yes, we often extrapolate from a load that is close to what we want to do.
Real Gun said:
Melting.
My oldest unabridged Websters limits smelting specifically to melting accompanied by a chemical change. So when you melt the alloy off the wheel weights, melting is all you are doing. However, when you add flux to the resulting melt to reduce the surface tin and lead and antimony oxides back to metal before casting your bullets or ingots, that is smelting as the chemical compound changes. So, by that definition, the bullet caster does some of both melting and smelting.
Some descriptions you find include having the metal coming out in its purest form, and not as an alloy, but I think we can safely say that when the bullet caster fluxes, he reduces tin, lead, and antimony oxides back to their pure metals first, and then they redissolve into the alloy, so the reduction was still smelting.
Good. Just be aware that you are NOT restricted to cast bullet load info where they used Lyman #2 alloy. While Lyman #2 would be a good alloy for, say, full velocity .357 Magnum loads, Lyman #2 alloyed 50/50 with some pure or nearly pure lead will serve you better for lower velocity/pressure .38 Special loads with the same bullet. It ain't rocket science, but you do have to use your head.
Don
Just yesterday I reordered 38 Special bullets for CAS loads from Missouri and selected my usual Brinell 12 instead of the optional 15. That 12 level also works better (less leading) in my 357 Magnum loads, none of which are full power but they aren't 38 Special either.
I don't cast those bullets because I now want them coated, mostly for safer handling when placing bullets by hand for seating. I have the materials for coating but would rather buy bullets at this point. I have never actually casted but am equipped to do it, only going that far in case I wasn't able to buy bullets for some reason. I do rely on electricity for the pot though and think my small generator would work in a pinch.
That's a reasonable assumption. I'm not sure pure Linotype would be very good in many applications, but with some hot rifle loads it might be appropriate. If your loads are closer to the minimum loads listed you'll probably have better luck with a softer alloy.
If reloading manuals got into the nitty gritty details of how they selected every load, why the starting loads were selected, why the max loads with lead often times don't get close to pushing the limits with cast bullets, why certain powders were left out, etc it would provide us with lots of useful information but would become much more in depth and detailed then many people would want to know.
Real Gun said, "I don't cast those bullets because I now want them coated, mostly for safer handling when placing bullets by hand for seating. I have the materials for coating but would rather buy bullets at this point. I have never actually casted but am equipped to do it, only going that far in case I wasn't able to buy bullets for some reason."
The health hazard is in my opinion greatly exaggerated especially currently by the state of California. To them, everything has lead in it.
I have been casting bullets since 1954 for handgun and rifle. Periodically I've been checked for lead levels in my body. Everything checks out just fine. I've cast bullets for myself and friends and even did it working for a commercial bullet caster for several years. All the violations regarding hazardous stuff would have given OSHA heart failure. Not going into detail on that but one thing has stood out during all these year casting bullets. I'm kind of freaky about drinking orange juice. (OJ) I love the stuff. Seems OJ chelates lead and other bad stuff from your body. It most likely the reason my lead levels are as low as they are. Just wash your hands after casting, and no eating or drinking while casting. Do that and you'll eliminate 80 percent or more with any problems from using casting and loading lead bullets.
I don't want to take this too far OT but felt it needed mentioning.
Hard bullets, soft bullets what's best? My current alloy is a real wizard's mix but casts air cooled bullets to 11 BHN and when water dropped, to 20 BHN. Take that same bullet and bake in an over for a few hours and then water drop and you get 32 BHN. I use a toaster oven I calibrated and bake at 425* F. Usually about two hours. I just do those for rifle bullets for target use.
Made a huge mistake a while back and cast a bunch of Lyman #358156 using the wrong alloy. Bullets were only 8 BHN. About that time a friend traded me a bunch of reloading stuff he didn't need for a box of my .357 Mag. handloads. (14.0 gr. A2400/ 158 gr. cast SWC) I loaded them with those too soft bullets. I told him if they leaded his barrel badly, bring the gun over and I'll do the chore of getting the lead out. Next time I saw him he told me they were the most accurate bullets he's ever shot. No leading in the barrel. I'm wondering what happened as that's a bout 1200 to 1300 FPS load depending on the gun. I loaded up a box and sure enough, more accurate that I can shoot and no leading. His gun a Ruger Blackhawk and mine an S&W M28. The only thing I can figure is the bullet size must have been exactly right for those two guns.
Paul B.
The health hazard is in my opinion greatly exaggerated especially currently by the state of California. To them, everything has lead in it.
I have been casting bullets since 1954 for handgun and rifle. Periodically I've been checked for lead levels in my body. Everything checks out just fine. I've cast bullets for myself and friends and even did it working for a commercial bullet caster for several years. All the violations regarding hazardous stuff would have given OSHA heart failure. Not going into detail on that but one thing has stood out during all these year casting bullets. I'm kind of freaky about drinking orange juice. (OJ) I love the stuff. Seems OJ chelates lead and other bad stuff from your body. It most likely the reason my lead levels are as low as they are. Just wash your hands after casting, and no eating or drinking while casting. Do that and you'll eliminate 80 percent or more with any problems from using casting and loading lead bullets.
I don't want to take this too far OT but felt it needed mentioning.
Hard bullets, soft bullets what's best? My current alloy is a real wizard's mix but casts air cooled bullets to 11 BHN and when water dropped, to 20 BHN. Take that same bullet and bake in an over for a few hours and then water drop and you get 32 BHN. I use a toaster oven I calibrated and bake at 425* F. Usually about two hours. I just do those for rifle bullets for target use.
Made a huge mistake a while back and cast a bunch of Lyman #358156 using the wrong alloy. Bullets were only 8 BHN. About that time a friend traded me a bunch of reloading stuff he didn't need for a box of my .357 Mag. handloads. (14.0 gr. A2400/ 158 gr. cast SWC) I loaded them with those too soft bullets. I told him if they leaded his barrel badly, bring the gun over and I'll do the chore of getting the lead out. Next time I saw him he told me they were the most accurate bullets he's ever shot. No leading in the barrel. I'm wondering what happened as that's a bout 1200 to 1300 FPS load depending on the gun. I loaded up a box and sure enough, more accurate that I can shoot and no leading. His gun a Ruger Blackhawk and mine an S&W M28. The only thing I can figure is the bullet size must have been exactly right for those two guns.
Paul B.
Reggie Perrin
Inactive
Since we're getting pedantic about language here, and most of us seem to agree that words mean things and that using the correct ones is important, I'll air one of my personal pet peeves since the offense has been committed in this very thread.
The words Affect and Effect do not mean the same thing, and seem to be used incorrectly by a good 95%+ of internet forum posters, including many right here on TFL, so pay attention and maybe you'll learn something.
Affect 1. To act on, to produce an effect or a change in: the composition of the alloy affects its hardness 2. to impress or move (in mind or feelings): mikld's use of the word "smelting" affected dahermit deeply .
Effect 1. That which is produced by some agency or cause; a result; a consequence: heating pure lead beyond 621 degrees produces the effect of melting 2. power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; weight: the bullets were undersized, therefore increasing hardness was of no effect in eliminating leading 3. a mental impression produced, as by a painting, speech, etc. mikld said "smelting" and the effect upon dahermit was to lock him up and drive him to--uh, nevermind. I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry.
Effect refers to something produced by an action or cause. Two common effects of firing undersized cast bullets are leading of the bore and poor accuracy.
Affect and Effect agree in the idea of exerting influence. To Affect is to concern, be of interest or importance to; to produce an effect in or upon something: adding antimony will affect the hardness of the alloy by increasing it. To Effect is to accomplish or bring about something: to effect a harder alloy, add antimony.
The words Affect and Effect do not mean the same thing, and seem to be used incorrectly by a good 95%+ of internet forum posters, including many right here on TFL, so pay attention and maybe you'll learn something.
Affect 1. To act on, to produce an effect or a change in: the composition of the alloy affects its hardness 2. to impress or move (in mind or feelings): mikld's use of the word "smelting" affected dahermit deeply .
Effect 1. That which is produced by some agency or cause; a result; a consequence: heating pure lead beyond 621 degrees produces the effect of melting 2. power to produce results; efficacy; force; validity; weight: the bullets were undersized, therefore increasing hardness was of no effect in eliminating leading 3. a mental impression produced, as by a painting, speech, etc. mikld said "smelting" and the effect upon dahermit was to lock him up and drive him to--uh, nevermind. I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry.
Effect refers to something produced by an action or cause. Two common effects of firing undersized cast bullets are leading of the bore and poor accuracy.
Affect and Effect agree in the idea of exerting influence. To Affect is to concern, be of interest or importance to; to produce an effect in or upon something: adding antimony will affect the hardness of the alloy by increasing it. To Effect is to accomplish or bring about something: to effect a harder alloy, add antimony.
OK Reggie , you just hurt my brain a little bit .
FWIW In the threads I start , I don't care if a word is misspelled or out of place . If I understand what you're saying , that's all that matters . Some may find this hard to believe but some people aren't as smart as others and there spelling is not all that good . This does not make those people stupid !!! It just means you know how to do something better then they can . I'm thinking they can do just as many other things better then you . This does not make any of us better then the other , just different . Get over your selves , your not that special !!!!
. FWIW In the threads I start , I don't care if a word is misspelled or out of place . If I understand what you're saying , that's all that matters . Some may find this hard to believe but some people aren't as smart as others and there spelling is not all that good . This does not make those people stupid !!! It just means you know how to do something better then they can . I'm thinking they can do just as many other things better then you . This does not make any of us better then the other , just different . Get over your selves , your not that special !!!!
Gary Wells
New member
FWIW, IMHO correcting somebody's spelling, grammar, incorrect word choice or usage is just plain rude, crude, & socially unacceptable. In most cases readers understand or comprehend what the poster was trying to spell or say. JHC, I'm sure that there are forums where that type of thing is a desirable trait. I really don't mind somebody correcting my spelling, word choice, or grammar, but I think that it ridiculously small minded.
That's become the default "netiquette" for most web-based media (though I think it is a quantity over quality habit; that is, it promotes communication volume, but not clarity). However, particularly because firearms-related activities can be dangerous if actual miscommunication occurs, the board's rules state:
That said, the last three posts have really taken the thread off-topic. Let's leave that sort of side discussion for PM's (unless you think something is so mangled it should be removed. in which case report the post). Otherwise, the thread will be closed.
4. Mangling of the English language whether through "text speak," ignorance, age, sloth or intent diminishes and embarrasses each of us, and is disrespectful to the reading membership. Posts which are indecipherable due to inability to translate thoughts into coherent written statements will be deleted without explanation. Recidivists will be removed.
That said, the last three posts have really taken the thread off-topic. Let's leave that sort of side discussion for PM's (unless you think something is so mangled it should be removed. in which case report the post). Otherwise, the thread will be closed.