I just don't get it.

Mike1234 said:
Just look at how mad we're all getting?:) Me thinks someone has a perception issue.:D
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Watch it Mike! If you keep making angry posts like that you're going to get in trouble!

Seriously, I don't see anyone getting angry here.
 
Watch it Mike! If you keep making angry posts like that you're going to get in trouble!

Seriously, I don't see anyone getting angry here.
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Hey, some of us may very well be "mad"... but I haven't seen any "anger" in this thread... DAMMIT!!!:mad:;):D
 
There's definitely something to be said about "jumping on the bandwagon". Available ammo, competitively priced ammo, lots of custom gun upgrades, etc.
The .222 Remington Magnum is probably just as good a round, but try finding that ammo at Walmart.
 
ar's vs other rifles

well u complain because folks talking about the ar's,you do realize one can shoot all day for lil or nothing,for about 15 cents a round, the 308's cost 1.65 cents a round,the 243 cost 1.78 cents a round,and the 45/70 cost 2.50 cents a round the last time I looked,so I don't think anyone will be playing with the big calibers,now if you wanted to play, what would choose to play with,see the point,as far as killing critters the big calibers they are only good for 150 yards maybe,except the 308 and the .223,which will reach out 500 plus, if you have the scope that will let you see that far,the big guns you have to make sure you hit your target because its costly,the .223 if you miss so what, I believe that's why folks are on to the ar's an the .223
I have a custom built ar colt 30 inch barrel fluted with a custom crown to setup the harmonics with a 1an 9 twist, I reload my own bullets that way my shots are consistent,62 grain bthp and 70grain ballistic tip, average cost 20 cents my rifle is a one minute rifle,for those that don't know what that is it means that at 100 yards I can put 3 shots in a one inch circle,not to brag but I can do it at 200 yards,this is my favorite rifle,if I needed to make a shot this is the rifle I would I grab
 
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I just don't understand why so many people are fascinated with the .223 Rem.
Now don't get me wrong it's a great little cartage. But everything you read and hear you would think that it will do anything you will ever want to do with a rifle.
I understand why every new rifle that comes out is chambers in it, because people keep buying them.
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1. Not true. I wouldn't characterize it as 'fascination' any more than any other mainstream caliber.

2. Yes it's a great cartridge for it's intended purpose.

3. "Everything you read and hear you would think it will do anything you will ever want to do with a rifle..." Ah, so I see your problem. You either exaggerate your claim, or you have no idea what you're talking about. I've NEVER heard that it will do everything you want from any contemporary reliable source.

4. "...every new rifle is chambered in it..." Really? Does that offend you? If so, ignore it. And I hardly think that is a reliable claim, anyway. But would you prefer that gun makers ignore the demand, and make a rifle in some obscure caliber that nobody has, wants, or can procure just to be different, and have those rifles sit on store shelves, unpurchased??

In that category of medium caliber centerfire rifle round, what would the OP propose replace the already available military style weapon (highly customizable) with widely available cheap ($10-15 currently) 10/20/30 round magazines, in the sub-$1000 price range with ammo at .25-30 cents per round?

Step up in caliber, and you quickly get over $1000 for the rifle, and $30-50 for magazines each. Step over to another non-military caliber/round, and you quickly double, triple, or quadruple or more the cost of ammo.

Sure, prices fluctuate. But today, 31 May 2014, with a little bit of price shopping, a person can buy a nice factory AR15 for $700 +/-, 10 magazines for $100+/-, and 1,000 rounds of ammunition for $300 +/-. That's $1,100 for a darn good setup that will last most people a year's worth of shooting, and be an incredibly good home defense setup, and even good enough to take small game if necessary. It just doesn't get much cheaper than that, for a military style and effective weapon.

So it's a combination of things. Availability, affordability, reliability, effectiveness, customization, experience/battle proven, light recoil, etc.

There simply isn't anything much that can compete on these levels, except other military style weapons and calibers (and mainly really just the 7.62x39 and the 5.45mm). Sounds like the OP is just grousing to grouse, and making wild exaggerations to support a faulty point.
 
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well u complain because folks talking about the ar's,you do realize one can shoot all day for lil or nothing,for about 15 cents a round, the 308's cost 1.65 cents a round,the 243 cost 1.78 cents a round,and the 45/70 cost 2.50 cents a round the last time I looked,so I don't think anyone will be playing with the big calibers,now if you wanted to play, what would choose to play with,see the point,as far as killing critters the big calibers they are only good for 150 yards maybe,except the 308 and the .223,which will reach out 500 plus, if you have the scope that will let you see that far,the big guns you have to make sure you hit your target because its costly,the .223 if you miss so what, I believe that's why folks are on to the ar's an the .223
I have a custom built ar colt 30 inch barrel fluted with a custom crown to setup the harmonics with a 1an 9 twist, I reload my own bullets that way my shots are consistent,62 grain bthp and 70grain ballistic tip, average cost 20 cents my rifle is a one minute rifle,for those that don't know what that is it means that at 100 yards I can put 3 shots in a one inch circle,not to brag but I can do it at 200 yards,this is my favorite rifle,if I needed to make a shot this is the rifle I would I grab
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There's an awful lot of cherry picking and outright fabrication in those numbers.

For one, no way are you routinely buying factory .223 ammo at 15 cents a round. In fact, twice that price would be cheap.

I assume that means your talking about reloaded .223 ammo and comparing it to factory ammo for the other rounds. That's not fair. Besides, you'd be hard pressed to load almost any ammo for 15 cents a shot without using lead bullets. The cheapest .223 bullets you're going to find are 10-13 cents each. Now you need a 3-5 cent primer and 5-7 cents worth of powder. Ignoring the brass cost, you're at an absolute minimum of 18 cents each. Realistically, you're at 21-25 cents each. Sure... someone will dig out the lowest prices they can find on every component to try to refute this price. That's not realistic. The average person isn't going to pay the lowest possible price on every component all the time. No way. Even my prices are lower than most will pay most of the time.

Two, the irony is that the .45-70 can be shot for as little or less than any of those cartridges you mention, if you want to "rock bottom" prices in an unrealistic way. Free lead, cast your own bullets, use the smallest charges of the cheapest powder, you're at 8 or 10 cents a shot. Heck, you can buy the lead bullets for the close to same price as .223 bullets and you can use less powder if you want.

I can load the .243 for right around 30 cents a shot. Yeah, it's more than .223 by 7-10 cents a shot but it's not the ridiculous 15 times the price that you quote.

Three, I'm not sure exactly what you count as "the big calibers" but you appear to be including the .243 in that list and then state that they're only good for 150 yards. Frankly, very few cartridges are only good for 150 yards and the list most certainly does NOT include the .243.

Four, somehow, I don't think anyone considers the cost of ammo in whether or not they care to hit their target. What's the point in shooting if you don't care to hit? Nobody says "Well hell, I don't know if I can make this shot but I'm only shooting a .223 so I don't care." or conversely "I don't think I can make this shot. I'd try if I had a .223 but I'm not wasting a .243 round". That's just silly beyond explanation.

Five, that's the first time I've ever heard of barrel length being compared to twist rate for barrel harmonics.

Six, 1 MOA at 100 yards isn't awful but it's nothing to right home about, particularly for only 3 shots. If your concern is accuracy, there are better ways than an AR and .223 to do it.
 
I have hunted white tail in PA with a .243 since I was 16. That said... I still love the 5.56 round... to me its not a deer round, although legal, and shouldn't be compared as such. It is great for coyotes, wood chucks, crows, and most importantly... what it was designed for... humans.

Like it or not.. the 5.56 is here to stay for a long long time.... Why? We all know its not the best... even the AMU stated if they were to develop the next combat round it will be in 6.5....however the 5.56 just plain works. It is already in place, so cost obviously is a huge factor. YES the ammo is cheap... also it is absurdly widely available because it is the common military/LEO/NATO round.

It does what it needs to on the battlefield and self defense. Even so much so police departments are ditching the sub machine guns such as the MP-5 and their shotguns, and issuing short barreled AR's. Its not rocket science, the guns work.. the round is lethal...and it breaks up faster inside interior wall construction and penetrates less than common self defense handgun rounds as well as shotgun loads.

No round is a do all.... bickering like children about a 5.56 not being able to take an Elk..... seriously?:eek:
 
As for the .204 Ruger and the .17WSM..... They never did it for me.. Maybe if I was out west with parie dogs I would consider the .204.

The .17WSM I just plain don't see a point for. I got to shoot it with the Savage and Winchester reps on a closed range before it was released to the public. The gun is made very cheaply for starters, felt like I was going to break the bolt knob... the stock is cheaper than what you would expect to find on a cheapo .22lr plinker.

That said the round is interesting.. but I have to ask myself... for what exactly? Woodchucks sure.. then again a .17HMR works just fine for those if I want to go that small... sure I might get more distance with the 17WSM. I know they stuck me in a room and showed me the cool dramatic video's of them shooting coyotes with it... but really, why would I limit myself to a round with a shorter effective range, with questionable lethal force on a coyote, when a .223 or .22-250 or .243 is more common, and will out perform? I know Brian you sighted not being able to use a center fire, which is one feather in the cap for it, for fall turkey season it would be nice, however I just don't see a need for it, other than to be different, or you were really hindered by a .22mag or .17hmr for turkey. I don't know if NY has goofey laws that I am unaware of.
 
for fall turkey season
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It's not for turkey season, it's for coyote.

From NY DEC:

You may hunt furbearers with a rifle chambered in any cartridge, except that during any open season for deer - including archery, muzzleloading and regular seasons - you may not possess a rifle larger than .22 caliber rimfire afield, during the day or night, to hunt wildlife, including furbearers in any county or portion of a county where deer hunting with rifles is prohibited during the regular deer season. Centerfire rifles smaller than .22 caliber are permitted.

You may hunt furbearers with a rifle chambered in any cartridge, except that during any open season for deer - including archery, muzzleloading and regular seasons - you may not possess a centerfire rifle afield, during the day or night, to hunt wildlife, including furbearers in any county or portion of a county where deer hunting with rifles is prohibited during the regular deer season.
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Deer season and coyote season overlap... as in deer season is open for 1/2 of coyote season. Pretty rough to not be able to use a centerfire for 1/2 the season either in entire counties or at least at night, in all counties.

As for the BMAG, I agree. It's a piece of crap. That's a gun though, not the WSM's fault they put it in a crappy gun.

An AR in 17WSM wouldn't be a BMAG.;)
 
Figures the Nanny state would have silly laws like that.

However Centerfires smaller than .22 are permitted, which there now is an abundant of choices that are still ballisticly superior to the .17WSM.

The .17 Rem can be pushed over 4000fps.

If you don't want to go that fast, there is also the .17 Fireball, and .17 Hornet.

All 3 will give you better performance, and still stay legal.

In PA we have the dumb law to not be able to hunt with a semi auto, but I can own a full blown select fire AR if I had enough cash...:rolleyes: However I won't be hunting with an AR regardless, mine are for sport and SD purposes.

I have owned .223, 6.8SPC, and 7.62x39 in bolt guns before however, even for combat designed rounds they all kill game pretty effectively.
 
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Well, but lookit, there IS a true versatility to this round, so don't overlook it - it's in one of several major sweet spots between recoil/size and killing power. With the right bullet & twist rate combo, with a head shot, it can easily dispatch game to moose sized or larger. Yet still very low recoil and ammo weight.

So, yeah, it's *mostly* military adoption as to this specific round's popularity, but in this general range, there's a reason for popularity - it was .222 rem previously; now .223 rem (& 5.56).
 
HKFan9 said:
Figures the Nanny state would have silly laws like that.

However Centerfires smaller than .22 are permitted, which there now is an abundant of choices that are still ballisticly superior to the .17WSM.
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NY DEC said:
Hunting Hours and Methods
Bobcat, coyote, red fox, grey fox, raccoon, opossum, and skunk may be hunted at any hour, day or night, beginning after sunrise on the opening day of the season and thereafter until midnight on the closing day of the season. For more on hunting furbearers at night, see below.
You may hunt furbearers during the day using any handgun, shotgun, rifle or bow. All laws pertaining to the use of firearms apply.
You may hunt furbearers with a rifle chambered in any cartridge, except that during any open season for deer - including archery, muzzleloading and regular seasons - you may not possess a rifle larger than .22 caliber rimfire afield, during the day or night, to hunt wildlife, including furbearers in any county or portion of a county where deer hunting with rifles is prohibited during the regular deer season. Centerfire rifles smaller than .22 caliber are permitted.
Air guns may be used to hunt furbearers. An air gun is defined as a firearm that uses spring or compressed air (not gunpowder) to propel a single projectile that is .17 caliber or larger and produces a muzzle velocity of at least 600 feet/second.
You may use a call, including an electronic call.

Furbearer Hunting at Night
You may hunt furbearers at night, with or without a light, as follows:

You may use a light, but you may not hunt from any motor vehicle, including an ATV. All laws pertaining to the use of a spotlight and firearm apply.
If hunting without a light, the use of a light gathering ("starlight") scope is legal on any firearm listed below.
You may use any handgun or bow.
You may use a shotgun loaded with shot (any size).
You may hunt furbearers with a rifle chambered in any cartridge, except that during any open season for deer - including archery, muzzleloading and regular seasons - you may not possess a centerfire rifle afield, during the day or night, to hunt wildlife, including furbearers in any county or portion of a county where deer hunting with rifles is prohibited during the regular deer season.
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Hey, if you can figure out what that means, you're a better lawyer than I am. The two paragraphs are contradictory, as far as I can tell.

In any case, I'm not arguing that the .17WSM is the greatest cartridge in the history of the world. I can push all sorts of cartridges over 4,000fps. I just said that an AR in 17WSM would be awesome. If someone doesn't agree, I would suggest that they not be interested in acquiring one.

Given a choice, I'd rather have the .204 and if not that a .22-250. Either will do whatever I could or would do with a .223. I've used all 3. The .223 does nothing for me.

Now, someone will respond with charts and numbers and minutia to defend the honor of their beloved .223. You know what? Awesome. Shoot it up. I don't and probably will not ever own one. I have no interest. That means more ammo for folks who love it, they should be happy.
 
Yes they seem to contradict one another who knows.

As for the .22-250 yes it's a great round, just costs more to get the same thing done. With my job I even get discounts on ammo and components but it still costs me more to reload the .22-250 than it does 5.56, given were loading both for varmints.

I don't think the .223 is the greatest round ever, it's just a good all around round for what it was designed for, and probably one of the cheapest to shoot in its class because of Leo/ Military adoption.

I understand you'd like a .17wsm AR, just the same way I'd love a 5.7x28 full sized 1911, how ever neither negates the fact the .223 just plain works very well for what it is intended for when putting personal feelings aside. Yes niche cartridges can be amazing, until you forgot to hand load enough rounds for it and can't find the rounds or components locally. Availability is nice for sure.
 
The .223 is a great little cartridge, and if that unhappy day were to ever come when all we could own would be one rifle, it wouldn't be a bad selection. However, now we can wisely choose many other cartridges for specific purposes which are much better suited for the task at hand. For instance, for big game (deer) hunting, I would much rather use anything that's at least .25 caliber with a velocity of 2,500 fps or more, and 7mm or more for the bigger stuff. I agree that for varmints the .204 or 22/250 are better than the .223. Finally, for small game, I'll take a good .22 long rifle every time. Ain't it great to live in a country where we still have the freedom (so far) to be able to make such choices?
 
HKFan9 said:
As for the .22-250 yes it's a great round, just costs more to get the same thing done. With my job I even get discounts on ammo and components but it still costs me more to reload the .22-250 than it does 5.56, given were loading both for varmints.
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Yeah, they do cost slightly more to reload. I've never much cared though. The difference is like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. We (most shooters) have got (conservatively) $300-$500 guns, topped with $150-$500 optics. Often, more like $1000-$1500 guns topped with $500-$1500 optics. We probably have $500-$1000, or even $1500 spent or presses, dies and various other paraphernalia. I'm supposed to worry about a nickle or dime every time I pull the trigger? Maybe if I'm shooting 10,000 rounds a year it would bother me. Then again, if I had time and money to afford to shoot 10,000 rounds a year, it probably wouldn't bother me.

That's a totally personal question and it's not really a detriment to the other rounds, unless it matters to the person spending the money. Too me, it amounts to probably $15-$25 a year. Completely inconsequential.

I understand you'd like a .17wsm AR, just the same way I'd love a 5.7x28 full sized 1911, how ever neither negates the fact the .223 just plain works very well for what it is intended for when putting personal feelings aside. Yes niche cartridges can be amazing, until you forgot to hand load enough rounds for it and can't find the rounds or components locally. Availability is nice for sure.
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I'd like a 1911 in 5.7 too. Stainless with a 6" barrel and Cocobolo grips, please.:D

The other two (.204 and .22-250) don't really qualify as "niche" cartridges. Only the smallest of small gun shops would not have ammo for either of them and, frankly, I've never really understood the "forgot to load enough" or "left the ammo at home" kind of arguments. I guess that's possible, I just don't see it happening. Honestly, sometimes being less popular is helpful. There were .204 bullets available at the height of the shortage when the shelves were bare of .224 caliber ANYTHING. The three cartridges use the same general range of powders and .223 and .204 identical primers. So if you can't find them for one, you're not finding them for the other.

Honestly, I'm glad that the .223 has so many fans. It keeps them from buying my .204 components.;):D

Best of all, we still live in a (relatively) free country. We all get to shoot whatever we want. I don't have to like your .223 and you don't have to like my .204.:)
 
Its not that I don't like it, as I said, if I was out west with dogs it would probably be one of the first guns I would build up. Just saying I don't have a need for one right now. I do have a bolt gun in .223 I keep around for chucks and coyotes, however I favor it for the AR platform for sport and defense.

You are right about the reloading, I was merely referencing it, as unfortunate as it is, people are often inspired by price more these days than features.

They are not niche cartridges, however I should have been more clear... of the few 17 cal. centerfired we listed I am sure there are 20 others somewhere in reloading manuals. One oddball I am aware of is the .17 squirrel. Sadly I have been that guy who forgot to handload enough rounds for a range day.... generally only make that mistake once in life.;)
 
i have one in savage m12 in 223 rem. it shoots 3/8" at 100 yards, somehow my dad got ahold of it. i shoot the tc encore in 20 vartarg and another in 22-250 ackley improved.
 
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