ActivShootr
New member
Can I pick the five? 
I Guess I was Naive in Thinking that all Police Officers were Excellent Shots.
- Thread starter Wheel-Gunner
- Start date
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Rules are, as a rule, not all inclusive.
None of your opponents fall into the "not great shots" rule?
Welcome to the party. That's what we're here for.
Cops and shooting
Not all LEOs like to shoot. At my agency, if 10 officers show up for a range practice day, that's a lot. Same old exuses, don't want to get dirty, no time, the range is too far, etc... Personally, I take a vacation day to use the range when I can. Others only shoot once a year in order to qualify.
Not all LEOs like to shoot. At my agency, if 10 officers show up for a range practice day, that's a lot. Same old exuses, don't want to get dirty, no time, the range is too far, etc... Personally, I take a vacation day to use the range when I can. Others only shoot once a year in order to qualify.
Swampghost
New member
I liked JohnH1963's opening line.
It brings to question; How many LEO's have done previous duty where they were being shot at? IMHO a war vet should react entirely different from an academy grad.
My experience on this predates my military duty, I'll elaborate if required.
It brings to question; How many LEO's have done previous duty where they were being shot at? IMHO a war vet should react entirely different from an academy grad.
My experience on this predates my military duty, I'll elaborate if required.
I concede that Armsmaster may be correct about his department, but out in the rest of the world, there are a lot of cops who can't hit the proverbial barn door. An indoor range I know of allowed police to shoot there as a department program. They shot up the floors, the A/C ducts, the walls, in fact darned near everything but the targets. One even fired a shot that missed his own foot by an inch. And these were not green recruits, but officers who had been on the force for years. They simply could not shoot!
Sure, departments have pistol teams and they are often very good. But darned few use the service pistol and a few good shots out of a large department don't mean much. (Plus they are usually long service types who are no longer "on the streeet".)
I do not expect a cop to be a world class target shooter, but the gun is a tool of the trade and I do expect him or her to be competent in its use. It is as if I were to hire a carpenter and see him miss nails and smash his thumb with a hammer; I would hire someone else since a workman who cannot learn to use the tools of his trade is not only not worth hiring but is a danger to himself and others. That goes even more so for an armed police officer.
Jim
Sure, departments have pistol teams and they are often very good. But darned few use the service pistol and a few good shots out of a large department don't mean much. (Plus they are usually long service types who are no longer "on the streeet".)
I do not expect a cop to be a world class target shooter, but the gun is a tool of the trade and I do expect him or her to be competent in its use. It is as if I were to hire a carpenter and see him miss nails and smash his thumb with a hammer; I would hire someone else since a workman who cannot learn to use the tools of his trade is not only not worth hiring but is a danger to himself and others. That goes even more so for an armed police officer.
Jim
David Armstrong
Moderator
I would like to point out that in the midst of all this "cops can't shoot" discussion, one factor is being left out...they also don't lose many gunfights.
Last time I was at the range and some of the local LEO's showed up the guy standing next to me went to high school with me, and was arrested for drugs a bunch of times, and always getting in trouble. He couldn't shoot to save his own life it seemed, but people want me to depend my life on him and his buddies?
There are so many different factors in being a good shot. A young academy grad might be better then the experienced miltary vet.
One reason, which most do not want to admit, is simply age. Grab a book off the shelf and hold it in front of you for 60 seconds. Hold your arms up completely straight for 60 seconds. Do you notice any shaking at all?
Next, look into the distance and try to read some small letters off of something. Is your vision all that great?
A younger police officer in his 20s might just be a better shot then the experienced mature officer. As we get older, we get slower, our vision fades and we simply cant hold objects as steady as we once could. Our reaction time fades.
Officers deal with this problem through powerful unions. In other non-unionized professions, such problems would be taken care of through write-ups for perceived performance issues and then followed by a carefully orchestrated firing. Police have it lucky. They can get older with grace and style and have a union to watch over them protecting them from hawkish administrators wanting to pull the trigger over such a natural event like aging. I digress...
One reason, which most do not want to admit, is simply age. Grab a book off the shelf and hold it in front of you for 60 seconds. Hold your arms up completely straight for 60 seconds. Do you notice any shaking at all?
Next, look into the distance and try to read some small letters off of something. Is your vision all that great?
A younger police officer in his 20s might just be a better shot then the experienced mature officer. As we get older, we get slower, our vision fades and we simply cant hold objects as steady as we once could. Our reaction time fades.
Officers deal with this problem through powerful unions. In other non-unionized professions, such problems would be taken care of through write-ups for perceived performance issues and then followed by a carefully orchestrated firing. Police have it lucky. They can get older with grace and style and have a union to watch over them protecting them from hawkish administrators wanting to pull the trigger over such a natural event like aging. I digress...
Yes, but outstanding marksmanship is not one of the foremost reasons they don't lose.
Some years ago, a local agency had a prisoner break out of the confinement area, snatch an officer's pistol and run through the police building. He eventually found the service desk up front and vaulted over it and exited the front doors. Five officers fire 17 rounds and scored one hit on the guy's pinky finger at less than 20 yards.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Which is my point. All this worry about police being good shots and such seems to be the wrong focus, IMO. They win their fights by a huge percentage, they get the bad guy and they do it without getting lots of non-BGs hurt, so what they are doing seems to work OK. Maybe we should focus on the results.
RedneckFur
New member
All said and done, its just more evidence you need to arm yourself and protect yourself, because we all know you cant depend on the goverment and its hired help when you really it.
We wouldn't accept a surgeon who was bad with his scalpel, an engineer who failed at complex math would soon find himself un employed. Folks will not watch a football player who fumbles the ball all the time. It frightens me the amount of people in the world who see a police badge as a "brass pass" to get away with sub standard quality work. I respect the good cops, and I've met quite a few I call good. I really dont understand the backlash that comes when you critisize the bad ones. They dont issue halo's with any profession, police work included.
We wouldn't accept a surgeon who was bad with his scalpel, an engineer who failed at complex math would soon find himself un employed. Folks will not watch a football player who fumbles the ball all the time. It frightens me the amount of people in the world who see a police badge as a "brass pass" to get away with sub standard quality work. I respect the good cops, and I've met quite a few I call good. I really dont understand the backlash that comes when you critisize the bad ones. They dont issue halo's with any profession, police work included.
It would probably be more productive to focus on the reasons for the results.
I'd say that the ubiquitous use of body armor is a very important factor in why cops tend to win short duration/short warning gunfights.
The ability to call for backup and the liklihood of being equipped better than the average criminal are very important factors in why cops tend to win long duration/prior warning gunfights.
So, you are an advocate of the status quo, even if the officers exhibit p***-poor accuracy - such as a marginal 20% hit rate like in the example above?David Armstrong said:
I'll stipulate that shooting paper targets is very different than defending yourself against targets that shoot back. However I think we've lost ground in the last 20 years or so when you look at the hit rates.
David Armstrong
Moderator
While certainly a factor, I doubt it would be considered very important (except for the offficer it happened to!). Just don't see that many vest "saves" in comparison to the number of incidents. They certainly add up over time, but it just doesn't seem to be much of a factor.
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David Armstrong
Moderator
If it works, what is the problem? If we have a 20% hit rate and a 99% (rates for example purposes only) win rate, I don't see the problem if our concern is with winning the gunfight. That does not mean I'm an advocate of the status quo, BTW. The status quo comes in many parts. Some I support, some I advocate, some I'm against.
I agree. I think I pointed out a while back that there was little if any relationship between doing good at the range and doing good in a gunfight.
I don't see too much difference. When Greg Morrison and I were researching this we found there have been pockets where we've gone up quite a bit, there have been areas where we went down quite a bit, but overall the hit rate seems to have been relatively stable for over 100 years.
The reasons why cops win gun fights is simple.
Criminals do not have guns so they can win fights with cops, but so that they can commit crimes like robbery or defend themselves against fellow criminals.
Once the police show up with their gear, most criminals have the common sense to give up because there will only be more cops showing up soon and with a greater amount of weaponry like assault rifles and armored vehicles.
Once a criminal is shot then reality sets in. They may not win this one so its best to raise your hands and give up. There is no way out.
There are times when the cops do not win the fight very easily or they simply do not win. This is when they come upon very determined men who will not stop although they are hit with a few shots.
Therefore, its wise of a department to always show up in mass with oversized weapons when any encounter involving a firearm occurs. In reality, the cops do not need to show up with a platoon of men armed with AR15s everytime there is a man with a gun. Thats a little bit of overkill. However, its needed for that psychological edge. The cops need to demonstrate that each incident will be treated with a huge show of force so that the only alternative is surrender.
Without the psychological edge, cops would not win that many gun fights...
Criminals do not have guns so they can win fights with cops, but so that they can commit crimes like robbery or defend themselves against fellow criminals.
Once the police show up with their gear, most criminals have the common sense to give up because there will only be more cops showing up soon and with a greater amount of weaponry like assault rifles and armored vehicles.
Once a criminal is shot then reality sets in. They may not win this one so its best to raise your hands and give up. There is no way out.
There are times when the cops do not win the fight very easily or they simply do not win. This is when they come upon very determined men who will not stop although they are hit with a few shots.
Therefore, its wise of a department to always show up in mass with oversized weapons when any encounter involving a firearm occurs. In reality, the cops do not need to show up with a platoon of men armed with AR15s everytime there is a man with a gun. Thats a little bit of overkill. However, its needed for that psychological edge. The cops need to demonstrate that each incident will be treated with a huge show of force so that the only alternative is surrender.
Without the psychological edge, cops would not win that many gun fights...
There are a lot of opinion and little fact to this thread. I will attempt to clarify some things. Let me start by qualifying my statements. I have been LEO / military for 29 years, with the US Border Patrol for the last 20 and a shooter since I was old enough to hold a gun.
Most LE on gun boards are shooters. Most police academies teach only the basics in everything. Anything you learn past that is up to you. LEO's are a cross section of society, meaning I work with lawyers, doctors, teachers, welders, truck drivers, construction workers you name it. Marksmanship is very important, but the guy that keeps his cool is the guy that survives, the guy that has the will to survive will survive.
A saying I like is " my rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon". it says it all. How many fat, out of shape cops do you see? to me it is the same as cops that can't drive, or fight, or shoot. When I can out PT and out shoot guys half my age I feel GOOD. It is a calling and a commitment. Not all LE jobs pay poorly, my first did, my current one pays 5 times that.
I will get off my soapbox and put on my flame retardant undies.
Most LE on gun boards are shooters. Most police academies teach only the basics in everything. Anything you learn past that is up to you. LEO's are a cross section of society, meaning I work with lawyers, doctors, teachers, welders, truck drivers, construction workers you name it. Marksmanship is very important, but the guy that keeps his cool is the guy that survives, the guy that has the will to survive will survive.
A saying I like is " my rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon". it says it all. How many fat, out of shape cops do you see? to me it is the same as cops that can't drive, or fight, or shoot. When I can out PT and out shoot guys half my age I feel GOOD. It is a calling and a commitment. Not all LE jobs pay poorly, my first did, my current one pays 5 times that.
I will get off my soapbox and put on my flame retardant undies.
vox rationis
New member
Very interesting post. I just kind of find it mind boggling though that ALL LEOs are not like you. I mean when a person is a law enforcement officer, one actually IS an ENFORCER of the law. How can somebody in that position NOT be an expert in the application of the Martial Arts, firearms included. Again it boggles the mind. Who are these people seeking out LE employment if they are not prepared to take the responsibility of learning and maintaining crucial martial skills.
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