I Guess I was Naive in Thinking that all Police Officers were Excellent Shots.

True story

The local county PD near where I live had a program where they took civilians and had them do a live shoot with a .38 and inserted them into real life police scenarios, with dummy weapons, to give them a taste of what the police go through and to see how the civilians would react.
On the outdoor pistol range, one of the civilians had a problem hitting the silhouette. The range officer came over and reassured her that she was doing fine. To prove his point, he told her to look up at the roof overhang which was absolutely riddled with bullet holes.
He then said,"And that's from police officers!"
 
Does anyone else find it curious that the assumption is being made that if someone is only a so-so shot at the climate controlled range where they have as much time as they'd like to line up their shot, they're going to somehow improve when; movement, return fire, low light, inclimate weather, or whatever, is introduced into the equation?
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Its an interesting question. NYPD found that training success or failure did not equatge to gunfight success or failure. And one of the rust belt agencies (maybe Detroit) found an inverse relationship. Talking with one of the FA instructors long ago he said that the ones that scored low in training did better in the gunfights than the ones that scored higher. Way to many variables to look at to come to any real conclusions, IMO. But I do like to point out that most officers will have far more training than most gunowners!
 
You are naive in thinking police officers are any more competent than the folks that work with you or stand next to you in line at the DPS.
 
Ah, another "I can't believe how poorly a given LEO shot" thread. Yes, some LEOs are poor shots with unimpressive firearms related KSAs (knowledge, skill, and ability). Yes, some LEOs are excellent shots with impressive firearms related KSAs. Yes, most fall somewhere in between. Just like everyone else.

The fault? Well, there's a list, beginning with the public and ending with the administrators. The individual is in between somewhere, and "yes" they could and should do something about it on their own until the rest come around.

"Any LEO's like to comment on how many chances they had to qualify if they failed a firearms qual?"

Reference pistols, my agency requires its personnel to qualify quarterly. Two attempts are authorized. In cases when personnel fail to qualify, the agency cancels their authorization to carry firearms, provides remedial training, and two additional attempts to qualify. If they cannot qualify, they are removed from service. "Removed" as in they lose their job.

Reference rifles/shotguns/subguns, the same, except that when personnel fail to qualify following the remedial training, they lose the authorization to carry the rifle/shotgun/subgun, not their jobs.
 
On a related note, many military personnel home from the war would likely be surprised to find many firearms enthusiasts underwhelmed by their firearms related KSAs as well.

Shhhhhhhhhh, don't tell the enemy.
 
Police officers are as a rule not great shots , and for a lot of reasons . We gunnies see a lot of police work as being about the gun and that is simply not the case . You could as easily say that not all ( pick your service here ) army officers are not marksmen in spite of the fact they wear ( or may be issued ) a pistol . The pistol today ( as a symbol of the .gov ) is a " badge of office " never expected to be used . Cops go thro an extensive training program , little of which deals with such physical arts such as shooting a gun , or effecting an arrest on a non compliant suspect . The academy is pretty law and report centric . Unlike some on the left think , you dont learn how to shoot/arrest innocent folk , nor do you learn how to cover for them that do . In fact you spend more time on the bill of rights than you do on self defense . Folks quit kicking cops , as no matter your aim becoming one today you will learn about the courts , and report writing , not so much about guns or even unarmed scuffles such as they are . Cops here in the usa deal with paperwork more than pistols , and i personally thank my deity every day for this fact .
 
cops and guns

I think that the population as a whole really does not understand the relationship of the avarage cop and his gun.To him it's just one of many tools he may have to use while performing his duties.Yes it would be nice if each cop could shoot like Wild Bill Hickock,and yes it would be nice that he also had an IQ of 140 and it would be nice if he could run 26 miles and bench press 350 lbs.What I have just discribed was a super cop in a Hollywood movie,not what's out there on the streets.However thats not reality.
I am sure that people possessing all these qualities would laugh at a typical starting pay of 25 grand a year.That is why we have the people that we have on the cops job,they are just normal every day people willing to put the uniform on and and give it a go.Most cops will do 20-30 years or more on the job and never discharge their service guns even once.I think it is time we understand this and accept reality and stop watching TV and movies.
 
Here in this area,a lot of the city police are younger people,with families, and a pretty low pay rate compared to some bigger cities. Most of them cannot afford to shoot alot on theier own dime.
 
On a related note, many military personnel home from the war would likely be surprised to find many firearms enthusiasts underwhelmed by their firearms related KSAs as well.
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Exactly. I was at the range a while back and was watching a few guys give another one a hard time about how he was handling an AR---not real safe, never hit anything that way, let me show how to hold that, etc. After a while the guy had apparently had enough, and shut them up: "I've killed 12 men during houseclearing in Iraq doing it this way. How many gunfights have you won?" I hung around long enough to take the guy out for a beer and a burger after he was done shooting.
 
Here in this area,a lot of the city police are younger people,with families, and a pretty low pay rate compared to some bigger cities. Most of them cannot afford to shoot alot on theier own dime.
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Same in this area. One of my dearest friends is le in a small town. He doesn't carry the issued 10mm so he is left to purchase his own practice and carry ammo.
 
i go to the range early when its empty, but at the range recently one morn was a correctional officer and his glock. much less than amazing with some lackluster safety skills to boot.
another morn early...a girl obviously being tutored in the timed drills for her police exam. not bad once the gun was out of the holster. she seemed determined.
but the guy with the shot timer doing that tutoring....uuuhhh, pretty dang good.
 
I would like to add some common sense to this thread.

There are many assorted factors and variables that we do not know. Did the officer work the night before and is now only operating on a little bit of sleep? Did the officer have a lot of coffee and sugar before the range and his hand is shaking a little bit? Did the officer have a fight with his wife and is simply not thinking right? Did the officer work out with weights and his arm is sore and he is having a problem steadying his arm? etc etc. There are many physical factors that can effect a person's aim.
 
"...To most LEO's the sidearm is just another piece of gear to carry around..." Exactly. That's why most of 'em like Glocks.
The days of cop recruits being shooters are long gone. Having a degree is far more important these days. Knew a guy(a buddy's older brother) who got assigned to the 'bank car', long, long ago. (30 plus years ago.) The 'bank car' was the only one with a pump shotgun. Neither the guy I knew nor his partner knew how to load it.
Most of 'em have never seen a real firearm of any kind prior to their training, such as it is. Most of 'em don't shoot recreationally or ever shoot their service piece except for their annual, as a minimum, qualification either.
Used to shoot in an ISU league. Bullseye. Some cops team guys would show up with their service revolver(I did say, long ago). No adjustable sights and they weren't allowed to have a trigger job done. We wiped the floor with them regularly. Good bunch of guys, for the most part, though.
"...compared to some bigger cities..." Up here, in London, Ontario, a copper with some TI is making 69 grand per annum. The PD budget is $83 million Cdn. Most of which goes to pay checks. Not all of that is cop pay checks though. The clerks and typists are over paid too.
Police Cadets, in Toronto, are paid 50 grand to start. No experience. No training. The TO cop budget is half a billion.
 
I have nothing but respect for the boys in blue for the most part. It is a calling. To protect and to serve means that they are serving their community. I thank them every chance I get. It is a stressful job and frequently they get no thanks for it.

I have met wonderful LEOs who gave me pointers that literally blew my mind when it came to pistol training and shooting. I will never forget it.

We know of the ones who come in just for an 8 hour a day shift.

God bless em.
 
I don't believe that LEO are marksmen as it were. They do have to pass a shooting test but again, its not to prove they are marksmen, but they are competent with their sidearm.

As a sidenote, I was at the range when a LEO recruit and in instructor showed up and took the lane next to mine. I stop to reload and then hear the instructor tell her "Nice job, each one hit the fair wall that time. Don't even worry about hitting the target, just focus on the wall at the end of the range each time."

For her next mag, I watched and sure enough, she was just shooting at the far wall. At that point, I figured if she was struggling to hit the wall, that it was in my best interest to leave the range before I had a hole where I didn't want one.
 
One of the reasons that the .45 Auto got such a good reputation in LE is because it was not a typical issue weapon. Even where they were allowed they usually had to be purchased by the officer. That meant that only the "gunny" cops carried them. You know, the officers who were actually likely to practice on their own time and their own $$ to become proficient.

It should come as no surprise, then, that cops carrying .45 Autos seemed to have much better "luck" in shootouts--and a smaller surprise that cops who didn't want to practice and police chiefs who didn't want to pay for practice hours & practice ammunition were more than ready to point to caliber as the reason for that success.
 
That meant that only the "gunny" cops carried them. You know, the officers who were actually likely to practice on their own time and their own $$ to become proficient.
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That's an interesting point. I would have never thought of that.
 
I would take five random cops against five random members of a gun related message board any day on the range.
 
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