Hunters Unethical?
- Thread starter Eli Cash
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@Brian
"Since you don't believe that there is any objective moral criteria involved and these hunters are not effecting you in any way, why would you have any opinion whatsoever, say nothing of being bothered enough by it to join a forum for the singular purpose of complaining about it?"
I think you may be taking your editing powers too far. I never mentioned "objective moral criteria" I said "empirical truths". To determine such truths would demand veering the discussion into much more philosophical arenas.
You are the one who brought up ethics..I was perfectly happy with "jack wagons".
I hope y'all are smiling and not taking this all to seriously. I fear a couple of you may need some bran to force the red meat through the ol' colon though
EC
"Since you don't believe that there is any objective moral criteria involved and these hunters are not effecting you in any way, why would you have any opinion whatsoever, say nothing of being bothered enough by it to join a forum for the singular purpose of complaining about it?"
I think you may be taking your editing powers too far. I never mentioned "objective moral criteria" I said "empirical truths". To determine such truths would demand veering the discussion into much more philosophical arenas.
You are the one who brought up ethics..I was perfectly happy with "jack wagons".
I hope y'all are smiling and not taking this all to seriously. I fear a couple of you may need some bran to force the red meat through the ol' colon though
EC
Eli, lobster fishing is a big industry here in Maine. I've seen lobsters up close when I dove, although I didn't take any pictures. Is harvesting lobster ethical?
In your vast backcountry experience did you wear any leather? Maybe on boots, a belt, or one of your holsters. If so was that ethical? If not was what it took to create the oil that made up the alternative product ethical?
And what about the work behind mining the metals in the computer you're using, or the factory where it was made. Was all that production ethical?
In your vast backcountry experience did you wear any leather? Maybe on boots, a belt, or one of your holsters. If so was that ethical? If not was what it took to create the oil that made up the alternative product ethical?
And what about the work behind mining the metals in the computer you're using, or the factory where it was made. Was all that production ethical?
Eli Cash wrote:
Incorrect assumption. In many east coast areas they have a real problem with deer in suburban areas. From time to time it even makes national news that some township has hired professional hunters to shoot deer in town due to too many car accidents or other incidents involving the animals.
In many parts of the country there is a serious problem with over population of feral pigs. They can't kill them fast enough and these critters are doing serious harm to the ecosystem.
Now on to some of your other points.
For the last 20 years my deer hunting has been in the Angeles and San Bernadino National Forests. For the last 12 years I have been allowed to hunt from a friends property in the SBNF. I am hunting in zones that have less than a 5% success rate as posted by CDFG. There is no "easy to slaughter bambi" hunting in these areas. I have seen deer wander through the property year round, but when season comes around they become scarce.
I have seen quite a few hunters that seem to have a reading comprehension problem. They can't seem to read the No Trespassing Signs posted around the property. It took me a few seasons the get these folks to understand that they were not welcome. Armed with a 30-06 and 357 (my usual hunting compliment), I have confronted several reading impaired armed individuals and explained to them their need to leave. I have not needed to escalate the situation to the point of deadly force. I know they can hurt me and they know I can hurt them.
You stated something to the order of that you would like to pop a few 9mm rounds off over the hunters heads. Well I will tell you that it is a good thing that you haven't. If I have someone cracking rounds off at me I know what the final result will be and it won't be pretty. Chances are better than even money that done to other folks the result will be the same. Only a fool would invite deadly force to be visited on them by doing what you suggested. I lay 1000-1 odds against your surviving such nonsense.
As to handgun hunters, people who choose to use hand guns (which many of them use single shot guns like a TC) do so due to the challenge. Quite frankly, most if not all of these folks are up to the challenge. Not only are they good shots, but they also chose their shots better than many and will pass up shots that are marginal or too far. As to another posters comment about 200 yard shots with a 357; he is correct. Several friends and I have done shooting games involving 2 liter soda bottles at 150-250 yards at differing elevations with our 357 revolvers. Use a scoped TC with the more powerful rounds and 200 yards is no problem.
I don't care for trophy hunting. But as long as the trophy hunters do it within the confines of the regulations of where they are hunting I have no quarrel with them.
I do not tolerate poachers and I also do not tolerate hypocrites. I once had a guy giving me lip about killing Bambi while he was chewing on a cheese burger. I informed him that I do not have a problem killing my dinner. I've also had the pleasure of having several vegetarians giving my guff about killing animals for their flesh. I happily pointed out to them that the animal I was eating could possibly be the same animal that gave its life for their Birkenstocks (TM). I happen to know quite a few vegetarians and I respect their choice. Respect does not mean we agree but it does mean that our disagreements remain civil. It is hard to be a true vegan as it requires that a person forgo all animal derived goods.
And most of us here do not have jobs that require that we spend 70+ days in the field across several states. With zone season overlap I have a six week window to get any deer hunting in. Within that six weeks, I have to schedule my time off so I can get real time in the field and not just play weekend warrior. Unfortunately so do an awful lot of hunters.
Incorrect assumption. In many east coast areas they have a real problem with deer in suburban areas. From time to time it even makes national news that some township has hired professional hunters to shoot deer in town due to too many car accidents or other incidents involving the animals.
In many parts of the country there is a serious problem with over population of feral pigs. They can't kill them fast enough and these critters are doing serious harm to the ecosystem.
Now on to some of your other points.
For the last 20 years my deer hunting has been in the Angeles and San Bernadino National Forests. For the last 12 years I have been allowed to hunt from a friends property in the SBNF. I am hunting in zones that have less than a 5% success rate as posted by CDFG. There is no "easy to slaughter bambi" hunting in these areas. I have seen deer wander through the property year round, but when season comes around they become scarce.
I have seen quite a few hunters that seem to have a reading comprehension problem. They can't seem to read the No Trespassing Signs posted around the property. It took me a few seasons the get these folks to understand that they were not welcome. Armed with a 30-06 and 357 (my usual hunting compliment), I have confronted several reading impaired armed individuals and explained to them their need to leave. I have not needed to escalate the situation to the point of deadly force. I know they can hurt me and they know I can hurt them.
You stated something to the order of that you would like to pop a few 9mm rounds off over the hunters heads. Well I will tell you that it is a good thing that you haven't. If I have someone cracking rounds off at me I know what the final result will be and it won't be pretty. Chances are better than even money that done to other folks the result will be the same. Only a fool would invite deadly force to be visited on them by doing what you suggested. I lay 1000-1 odds against your surviving such nonsense.
As to handgun hunters, people who choose to use hand guns (which many of them use single shot guns like a TC) do so due to the challenge. Quite frankly, most if not all of these folks are up to the challenge. Not only are they good shots, but they also chose their shots better than many and will pass up shots that are marginal or too far. As to another posters comment about 200 yard shots with a 357; he is correct. Several friends and I have done shooting games involving 2 liter soda bottles at 150-250 yards at differing elevations with our 357 revolvers. Use a scoped TC with the more powerful rounds and 200 yards is no problem.
I don't care for trophy hunting. But as long as the trophy hunters do it within the confines of the regulations of where they are hunting I have no quarrel with them.
I do not tolerate poachers and I also do not tolerate hypocrites. I once had a guy giving me lip about killing Bambi while he was chewing on a cheese burger. I informed him that I do not have a problem killing my dinner. I've also had the pleasure of having several vegetarians giving my guff about killing animals for their flesh. I happily pointed out to them that the animal I was eating could possibly be the same animal that gave its life for their Birkenstocks (TM). I happen to know quite a few vegetarians and I respect their choice. Respect does not mean we agree but it does mean that our disagreements remain civil. It is hard to be a true vegan as it requires that a person forgo all animal derived goods.
And most of us here do not have jobs that require that we spend 70+ days in the field across several states. With zone season overlap I have a six week window to get any deer hunting in. Within that six weeks, I have to schedule my time off so I can get real time in the field and not just play weekend warrior. Unfortunately so do an awful lot of hunters.
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Kreyzhorse
New member
Just because you can criticize doesn't mean that there is merit behind your criticism, especially if you have no experience with what you are condemning.
I vote, I understand the issues, I criticize the President. I drive and I also drink so I criticize drunk drivers. I don't swim, but I criticize Michael Phelps swimming technique....
Just because you have an opinion on something that doesn't mean it adds value to the discussion.
Moles, shrews, rabbits, gophers, just to name a few. Not all critters spend their entire life above ground.
Please, let's be intellectually honest here. Spend some time in the Ca. Central Valley and examine the lack of biodiversity in the ag. fields. Herbivores are not tolerated in huge swaths of land.
Kreyzhorse
New member
Could have and actually doing it are two entirely different things. If you don't understand the difference, try it.
There's no hard and fast rule, other than they are animals and you never know what they are going to do. I can without a doubt tell you that I have seen WAY more mature "trophy class" animals out dicking around than I have during a hunting season with a rifle in my hands. I don't kow if the animals sense it but I kindly doubt it. I attribute it to more people in the woods during that time, but it's a guess. More activity, they become more observant and tolerate less human contact. They act differently depending on the time of year. Bull elk during the rut is differnt than bull elk after the rut etc.
An example. I couldn't recall the number of mature bucks I've seen when hiking or scouting, and could have killed a great many of them. Often times they stand and stare after I jump them, or they stand broadside and keep eating as I watch them from my vehicle. I'd say most of the large deer I've seen in the off season I could have killed. But, I can count on one finger the number of mature bucks I've seen during hunting season that stood there and let me shoot them. One. I bet I've been on 15 deer hunts. I've seen some other good bucks while hunting but they've already seen me and are booking it the other way.
What I do konw is that MY attitude and mindset are different when I'm hunting than when I'm hiking. I feel more a part of it all when I'm stalking as opposed to watching. I feel a better sense of accomplishment when I bring home meat and antlers than I do when I just bring home a picture. My hands aren't shaking and my heart isn't pounding when I'm holding a camera but when I'm holding a rifle I have to make a conscious effort to call down enough to make a good shot. It's all gravy, but what makes me a part of it is being a player and not just an observer.
Hiking and hunting are two different ball games brother. I say I use more skill when doing the latter, admittedly sometimes it's easier than others. Depends on what the animal is doing.
Bottom line. If you weren't on the hunt, and didn't see all the events leading up to the picture, how can you pass judgement on it? You don't know what's behind that jack-wagon's smile unless you were there
@Kreyzhorse:
"Could have and actually doing it are two entirely different things. If you don't understand the difference, try it"
One needn't have experiences to understand they would not enjoy them. I KNOW I wouldn't like a homosexual experience and prefer not to try it.
If you are more adventurous have at it.
EC
That was too easy...
"Could have and actually doing it are two entirely different things. If you don't understand the difference, try it"
One needn't have experiences to understand they would not enjoy them. I KNOW I wouldn't like a homosexual experience and prefer not to try it.
If you are more adventurous have at it.
EC
That was too easy...
ligonierbill
New member
I quit arguing with MSBs (Morally Superior Beings) long ago. But I've never been called a "Jack Wagon" before. That's a new one. Being from Pittsburgh, I've been called a...well, you wouldn't understand if you weren't from there. I hunt, I kill (not as often as I'd like), and I eat. Don't like it? OK. You don't have to. Think I'm unethical? OK. I don't care what you think. But a word of advice. If you want to insult hunters in Pennsylvania, think of something else to call them. Jack Wagon? They may think it's a new pickup!
@Huntaz:
"It's all gravy, but what makes me a part of it is being a player and not just an observer."
My point again, the animal is not aware of "playing" the game. Although I have seen herds being stalked by coyotes that seemed rather non chalant… never saw the coyote attack so perhaps not a predator/prey relationship. More wishful thinking on coyotes part.
Re; the "jack wagons smile" (I'm gonna name my country band this!) you are correct, I assumed but back to my experiences with Native Americans it lacks respect IMO. Just how I see it.
EC
"It's all gravy, but what makes me a part of it is being a player and not just an observer."
My point again, the animal is not aware of "playing" the game. Although I have seen herds being stalked by coyotes that seemed rather non chalant… never saw the coyote attack so perhaps not a predator/prey relationship. More wishful thinking on coyotes part.
Re; the "jack wagons smile" (I'm gonna name my country band this!
) you are correct, I assumed but back to my experiences with Native Americans it lacks respect IMO. Just how I see it.EC
2damnold4this
New member
Let's see:
.
and:
So, the claims are that hunting is unethical because it's easy to get close to an animal but handgun hunting is more unethical because it requires getting close.
.
and:
So, the claims are that hunting is unethical because it's easy to get close to an animal but handgun hunting is more unethical because it requires getting close.
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Is a dog unethical when it kills a Gopher? I know im in the minority here but I don't see humans any different than other animals other than I belong to the group of animals called humans. Humans evolved from the same stuff all the other animals did.
Do I hunt? Yes but I am a predator that is what predators do. I have eyes in the front of my head. My young are born weak and need care. I am sure there are other things as well but I just got back from hunting and I am a bit drained.
Man can try to change nature but in the long run it is nature that will change the man. In the end it matters very little what we do. There will still be life on this rock we call earth millions of years after humans have gone extinct. Humans are in a boom phase right now, but eventually nature will grow tired of us and introduce something to control our population such as disease or starvation. Our key asset we have over other animals is our intellect. But dont think that will save us in the end. Nature gave use this gift and she knows what she is doing.
Do I hunt? Yes but I am a predator that is what predators do. I have eyes in the front of my head. My young are born weak and need care. I am sure there are other things as well but I just got back from hunting and I am a bit drained.
Man can try to change nature but in the long run it is nature that will change the man. In the end it matters very little what we do. There will still be life on this rock we call earth millions of years after humans have gone extinct. Humans are in a boom phase right now, but eventually nature will grow tired of us and introduce something to control our population such as disease or starvation. Our key asset we have over other animals is our intellect. But dont think that will save us in the end. Nature gave use this gift and she knows what she is doing.
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I'm not too sure what a "Jack Wagon" is either, but I think if I did, I might take offense at being compared to one.
This whole post has me confused as I take it as possibly an affront to my woods skills and reasons to hunt. I find no reason for me to apologize to anyone for hunting and refuse to pander to anyone for my actions just because they think they can flit around the woods with the animals and be "one" with nature.
Maybe my problem is I just can't see myself dancing through the daisies with butterflies circling around my head as I sing children's songs to the bears and wildlife.
This whole post has me confused as I take it as possibly an affront to my woods skills and reasons to hunt. I find no reason for me to apologize to anyone for hunting and refuse to pander to anyone for my actions just because they think they can flit around the woods with the animals and be "one" with nature.
Maybe my problem is I just can't see myself dancing through the daisies with butterflies circling around my head as I sing children's songs to the bears and wildlife.
RaySendero
New member
Eli Cash
Guys,
Think y'all are being played - Google Eli Cash:
Guys,
Think y'all are being played - Google Eli Cash:
Origin of Eli Cash:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeKjKWXWZOE
"Why would a reviewer make the point of saying someone's "not" a genius? Do you especially think I'm "not" a genius?
You didn't even have to think about it, did you?"
LOL
EC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeKjKWXWZOE
"Why would a reviewer make the point of saying someone's "not" a genius? Do you especially think I'm "not" a genius?
You didn't even have to think about it, did you?"
LOL
EC
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