Hunters Unethical?
- Thread starter Eli Cash
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OP,so now among the population of hunters,you want to Alynski off the handgun hunters as a subset to disdain and marginalize.
You said something about being a government employee with a 9mm.As a Superior Being who can't hit anything with his 9mm handgun,it does not occur to you that your skills are vastly inferior to the skills of a typical handgun hunter.
Do a little research on handgun metallic sillouhette shooting.
Because I have the honor to know some fine,hard working,salt of the earth American Beef Producers,I occasionally assist them by thinning back the prairie dog .200 yd handgun hits are not hard.My .260 Rem MOA handgun does provide one shot,one kill results.
Now,the Rancher does recognize he is a Steward on a much grander scale than cattle.Two small prairie dog towns ,of a controlled size,is enough.The whole hawk,burrowing owl,coyote,rattlesnake thing is just like the stars and the sunsets.
Bulls and cows and spring calving and roundup are all part of the Circle of Life.
The same grass he watches over feeds antelope,deer,rabbits,etc.Lots of bio-diversity.
Now../.do you eat sunflower seeds? Well,I recall we got permission to hunt on some land owned some out of state fellow...pheasants.We went out to hunt pheasants.This land was planted in sunflowers.Miles of sunflowers,tall,heavy heads as big as pie pans.Neat,clean,vegetarian sunflower seeds.
I walked miles in those fields.Not a pheasant.Not a meadowlark.Not a living thing.Mordor.
Own your own shadow.Any means of producing enough food to feed YOU (do you produce the food you eat?) kills.Farming vegetables kills .
Get over the idea you do not kill.We all do.Some just pay others to do it.
Before you learn that,you do not have the Respect and Humility to know your place in the Circle of Life.
A hunter's kill is as honest as a home grown tomato.
You said something about being a government employee with a 9mm.As a Superior Being who can't hit anything with his 9mm handgun,it does not occur to you that your skills are vastly inferior to the skills of a typical handgun hunter.
Do a little research on handgun metallic sillouhette shooting.
Because I have the honor to know some fine,hard working,salt of the earth American Beef Producers,I occasionally assist them by thinning back the prairie dog .200 yd handgun hits are not hard.My .260 Rem MOA handgun does provide one shot,one kill results.
Now,the Rancher does recognize he is a Steward on a much grander scale than cattle.Two small prairie dog towns ,of a controlled size,is enough.The whole hawk,burrowing owl,coyote,rattlesnake thing is just like the stars and the sunsets.
Bulls and cows and spring calving and roundup are all part of the Circle of Life.
The same grass he watches over feeds antelope,deer,rabbits,etc.Lots of bio-diversity.
Now../.do you eat sunflower seeds? Well,I recall we got permission to hunt on some land owned some out of state fellow...pheasants.We went out to hunt pheasants.This land was planted in sunflowers.Miles of sunflowers,tall,heavy heads as big as pie pans.Neat,clean,vegetarian sunflower seeds.
I walked miles in those fields.Not a pheasant.Not a meadowlark.Not a living thing.Mordor.
Own your own shadow.Any means of producing enough food to feed YOU (do you produce the food you eat?) kills.Farming vegetables kills .
Get over the idea you do not kill.We all do.Some just pay others to do it.
Before you learn that,you do not have the Respect and Humility to know your place in the Circle of Life.
A hunter's kill is as honest as a home grown tomato.
"Your original title called hunters "Jack Wagons". Do you suppose that's better? The word means idiot, loser, lame, pathetic, etc.
We don't do invectives here. Do you have a word that you find more acceptable than "unethical" without being insulting to hunters? I'd be happy to fix it for you.
If you find the "administration" not to your liking, feel free to find the door."
No sir Brian,
I appreciate your allowing me to stay and allow the thread to run. I'm not sure I would have chosen "unethical" but that's what we have at this point. If you prefer to change my name to "Jack Wagon" I'm all for it and kinda deserve it.
"Don't much matter how you vote, you're still drawing conclusions based on assumptions on a subject you seem to know Jack about."
Well this is my point entirely! I DO KNOW! I may know better than YOU! How much time did you spend in the back country last year? I was in a tent off the beaten track for the most part through UT and WY for 35 straight days. Another week longer in UT, several weeks in SE AZ, a week in So. Cal, ~ 10 days in NV and another 2 weeks in SW Texas. I spent most of the time in Tucson and was weekly out on day trips in the desert; javelinas etc… This is just last year…combine this over a 20 year period and you have EXPERIENCE.
I suggest many of you don't spend enough time in the back country and have no clear indications of animal habits. If your out during hunting season, as has been suggested, the animals are spooked. But I have been out and encountered hunters and still close to wild life….
Trying to argue I have no experience is a lost cause my friend.
EC
We don't do invectives here. Do you have a word that you find more acceptable than "unethical" without being insulting to hunters? I'd be happy to fix it for you.
If you find the "administration" not to your liking, feel free to find the door."
No sir Brian,
I appreciate your allowing me to stay and allow the thread to run. I'm not sure I would have chosen "unethical" but that's what we have at this point. If you prefer to change my name to "Jack Wagon" I'm all for it and kinda deserve it.
"Don't much matter how you vote, you're still drawing conclusions based on assumptions on a subject you seem to know Jack about."
Well this is my point entirely! I DO KNOW! I may know better than YOU! How much time did you spend in the back country last year? I was in a tent off the beaten track for the most part through UT and WY for 35 straight days. Another week longer in UT, several weeks in SE AZ, a week in So. Cal, ~ 10 days in NV and another 2 weeks in SW Texas. I spent most of the time in Tucson and was weekly out on day trips in the desert; javelinas etc… This is just last year…combine this over a 20 year period and you have EXPERIENCE.
I suggest many of you don't spend enough time in the back country and have no clear indications of animal habits. If your out during hunting season, as has been suggested, the animals are spooked. But I have been out and encountered hunters and still close to wild life….
Trying to argue I have no experience is a lost cause my friend.
EC
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
You realize that many of us (most) have no access to any "back country", right? Many of us hunt plots of land that are 10, 15, 20 acres, surrounded by hundreds of more 10-20 acre plots. The whole USA isn't divided into million acre public land plots.
"OP,so now among the population of hunters,you want to Alynski off the handgun hunters as a subset to disdain and marginalize."
Not sure what to "Alynski off" means. I assume its the Saul Alinsky the current admin is so fond of but I only know this via rumor. My political opinions are well formed based on my beliefs. I'll leave it at that.
Next time I see a sunflower seed try to run off or resist I'll reconsider my diet…. I always find this argument particularly amusing. "Eating plants is killing" LOL! I recall some buddist argument for eating fish; "I don't kill the fish, I remove it from the water and it dies" I suggested he toss a cow in the water claiming "I didn't kill the cow, I pushed it in the water and it drowned" and have a hamburger if that was his logic.
EC
Not sure what to "Alynski off" means. I assume its the Saul Alinsky the current admin is so fond of but I only know this via rumor. My political opinions are well formed based on my beliefs. I'll leave it at that.
Next time I see a sunflower seed try to run off or resist I'll reconsider my diet…. I always find this argument particularly amusing. "Eating plants is killing" LOL! I recall some buddist argument for eating fish; "I don't kill the fish, I remove it from the water and it dies" I suggested he toss a cow in the water claiming "I didn't kill the cow, I pushed it in the water and it drowned" and have a hamburger if that was his logic.
EC
"You realize that many of us (most) have no access to any "back country", right? Many of us hunt plots of land that are 10, 15, 20 acres, surrounded by hundreds of more 10-20 acre plots. The whole USA isn't divided into million acre public land plots."
So this is not supported by the "culling the herd" environmental need…I assume…
But you are correct, I am "poisoned" by my own experiences and should look at the broader picture. Not to say my arguments fall flat as a result.
EC
So this is not supported by the "culling the herd" environmental need…I assume…
But you are correct, I am "poisoned" by my own experiences and should look at the broader picture. Not to say my arguments fall flat as a result.
EC
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
No, your arguments fall flat on their own, because they're entirely subjective.
You think hunters are (pick your insult) because they are hunters and they kill animals that aren't hard to get close to.
You can spend a month in the back country and take pictures of X from up close.
You somehow associate the difficulty of the hunt with the value of the hunter. If they kill an animal that didn't take much effort, they're (pick your insult).
You apparently believe that a hunter that shoots an animal with a rifle from 500 yards across a valley is different from the hunter that shoots one with hand-made wooden arrows and his handmade bow from 10 yards who is different from a the guy who climbs a tree on his 20 acre plot and shoots one from 50 yards with a shotgun. Even though every one of them will use the same amount of the animal and feed their families with it and all bought a license and all killed the animal quickly.
You somehow equate the difficulty in encountering the animal and/or getting close to one with the ethics or personality of the hunter.
This is an irrelevant and arbitrary association, with no basis in reality.
You think hunters are (pick your insult) because they are hunters and they kill animals that aren't hard to get close to.
You can spend a month in the back country and take pictures of X from up close.
You somehow associate the difficulty of the hunt with the value of the hunter. If they kill an animal that didn't take much effort, they're (pick your insult).
You apparently believe that a hunter that shoots an animal with a rifle from 500 yards across a valley is different from the hunter that shoots one with hand-made wooden arrows and his handmade bow from 10 yards who is different from a the guy who climbs a tree on his 20 acre plot and shoots one from 50 yards with a shotgun. Even though every one of them will use the same amount of the animal and feed their families with it and all bought a license and all killed the animal quickly.
You somehow equate the difficulty in encountering the animal and/or getting close to one with the ethics or personality of the hunter.
This is an irrelevant and arbitrary association, with no basis in reality.
I'm sorry, could you remind me how much HUNTING experience you have?
Any bumbling fool can stumble across various types of animals given 70 DAYS A YEAR in the field. Give me 70 days and I guarantee you I'll punch a tag. If you knew beans about hunting, you'd konw that you don't get 70 days a year, and you don't get to roam over multiple states shooting any animal you see. Bad assumptions.
You assume that every picture you see of a guy smiling with a dead animal means that he, what, defecated all over the carcass and buried the meat because the hike was too far? Ever occur to you that the guy taking the pictures may have helped him out? You know that guide services often times include dressing and packing out the animal, sometimes with horses in back country?
You assume one should, what, feel bad about shooting an animal? I was all smiles in my picture with my elk this year, and so were my wife and daughters when they learned we'd be eating healthy lean meat all year. Plus I got to get out away from civilizatin and hike just like I presume you like to do). Native American customs and ceremonies are fine and good, but it's not MY culture. Why would I not smile for the camera?
Every conclusion you've made is drawn from an assumption about HUNTING, which you have not done.
Any bumbling fool can stumble across various types of animals given 70 DAYS A YEAR in the field. Give me 70 days and I guarantee you I'll punch a tag. If you knew beans about hunting, you'd konw that you don't get 70 days a year, and you don't get to roam over multiple states shooting any animal you see. Bad assumptions.
You assume that every picture you see of a guy smiling with a dead animal means that he, what, defecated all over the carcass and buried the meat because the hike was too far? Ever occur to you that the guy taking the pictures may have helped him out? You know that guide services often times include dressing and packing out the animal, sometimes with horses in back country?
You assume one should, what, feel bad about shooting an animal? I was all smiles in my picture with my elk this year, and so were my wife and daughters when they learned we'd be eating healthy lean meat all year. Plus I got to get out away from civilizatin and hike just like I presume you like to do). Native American customs and ceremonies are fine and good, but it's not MY culture. Why would I not smile for the camera?
Every conclusion you've made is drawn from an assumption about HUNTING, which you have not done.
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buck460XVR
New member
I doubt anybody here claims to be Daniel Boone. Facts are, animals were probably less afraid of humans back in his day so hunting was even easier. So much for legends. Getting close to make a ethical shot is harder than takin' a picture with a telephoto lens. Takin' a good shot and passin' on poor opportunities is what the ethics of hunting is all about. Exposure to humans does not always make animals scared. Many animals equate humans with food and if are not confronted and/or killed/challenged will loose all fear of them. Walking up to a Elk in Yellowstone or downtown Estes Park is easier that tryin' to get close to one out in the wilds of Montana that has been pressured all it's life. Wolves put under the envelope of Endangered Species soon lost all fear of man and found the domestic animals around him to their liking. Once the hunt started again they were quite easy. Not so much anymore. Everything is relative. I could claim it's easy to race Indy cars cause I can drive a car back and forth to work too. I could claim it's easy to be a geologist because I know a rock from a mineral and I know what an erosional remnant is. That too is relative.
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'No, your arguments fall flat on their own, because they're entirely subjective.
You think hunters are (pick your insult)'
Each and ALL of your individual arguments are subjective. There is no empirical truth here.
My experiences have been countered with others experiences that could be viewed in the same light yet you do not point your conclusions at them. Therefore you are subjective AND biased.
"I'm sorry, could you remind me how much HUNTING experience you have?"
I had been on several "hunts" up to about 16 yrs old. Only an experience at ~10 years old was a kill involved. I'm also a photographer and have experience "stalking" animals. Mostly birding. My best lens was a 200mm not the best so one must get very close for decent wild life images. Ended up not being my bag..I do landscapes nowadays.
Suffice to say I am a more complete outdoorsman and have a better understanding of wildlife than the vast majority that have responded here. I know that will rub some of you the wrong way. I'm sure there are some here that have equal back country time and if so they can confirm the mental shift that occurs away from "civilization" for extended periods.
Once again saying I have no experience is folly; I just don't kill…
EC
You think hunters are (pick your insult)'
Each and ALL of your individual arguments are subjective. There is no empirical truth here.
My experiences have been countered with others experiences that could be viewed in the same light yet you do not point your conclusions at them. Therefore you are subjective AND biased.
"I'm sorry, could you remind me how much HUNTING experience you have?"
I had been on several "hunts" up to about 16 yrs old. Only an experience at ~10 years old was a kill involved. I'm also a photographer and have experience "stalking" animals. Mostly birding. My best lens was a 200mm not the best so one must get very close for decent wild life images. Ended up not being my bag..I do landscapes nowadays.
Suffice to say I am a more complete outdoorsman and have a better understanding of wildlife than the vast majority that have responded here. I know that will rub some of you the wrong way. I'm sure there are some here that have equal back country time and if so they can confirm the mental shift that occurs away from "civilization" for extended periods.
Once again saying I have no experience is folly; I just don't kill…
EC
"Getting close to make a ethical shot is harder than takin' a picture with a telephoto lens."
My posted image was with a 60mm lens from ~25m.
I was able to get closer until the family "walked" away. the buffer was about 15m…I can group a CD size circle with my 9mm XDs from 15m….
I don't think these sheep are playing "hunting".
Next…
EC
My posted image was with a 60mm lens from ~25m.
I was able to get closer until the family "walked" away. the buffer was about 15m…I can group a CD size circle with my 9mm XDs from 15m….
I don't think these sheep are playing "hunting".
Next…
EC
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Simply stated. As I do it, hunting is ethical. Actually, this year is going to be really hard on my family....we'll survive, but we loved getting out some deer meat and making a meal.
Well, I did not get my trophy doe this year. Yes, I'm thrilled to shoot a big doe. Every year, it is a struggle to get one due to the guides buying up the private land and the public land being as crowded as a shopping mall.
I can agree some with your assessment. I hunt for meat. We eat it. The hide goes to a recycler, the guts to the land, the bones probably go in the trash.
On the other hand, I find myself now competing with people willing to spend $5000 per year to get a deer....sometimes tens of thousands to block me from getting a doe from their prized woods. Then there are the high fence operations....they run like a ranch. Yes, that is shooting the dog as it were. Since the states own the animals, aren't these high fence deer "stolen" or is there a state which allows their acquisition legally? I'm guessing stolen. If you put up an 8' fence around 1000 acres, are you shooing the state's deer out before you lock the gate? I think not.
If you kill an animal in the back country, it ought to be illegal not to get it out. I can see how it happens though. Places like MT and WY are big country.
It sounds like I'm blaming video games, but really I blame TV. They show too much high dollar guided hunting. Some of these guys are killing 50 deer a year! They're not eating that. They might eat some and I hope they donate the rest, but who knows, wealth often fogs ethics.
My dad is a real hunter. He finds a spot to go, he develops a game plan and then executes it. He can "feel" the animals around him. Our hunting party was afraid to let him leave us. He would be dragging an animal everytime we did! He also helps others get an animal. I've watched it for years and I'm still amazed. I don't know how he does it. I guess it is because he has live outdoors in MT since he was a kid every weekend and vacation day for 65 years. He learned from his dad. I guess I should have paid more attention. He can tell you more about a deer looking at it's poop than I'll ever know about deer. This same guy can catch 10 fish an hour and let then all go! He's killed an 8 PT or bigger deer almost every year without ever trophy hunting. Just hard work and time living with the deer.
The idea of buying a hunting lease is too much for either of us to consider. It is just wrong. I don't want to be a worse hunter with better guides, land and equipment.
Well, I did not get my trophy doe this year. Yes, I'm thrilled to shoot a big doe. Every year, it is a struggle to get one due to the guides buying up the private land and the public land being as crowded as a shopping mall.
I can agree some with your assessment. I hunt for meat. We eat it. The hide goes to a recycler, the guts to the land, the bones probably go in the trash.
On the other hand, I find myself now competing with people willing to spend $5000 per year to get a deer....sometimes tens of thousands to block me from getting a doe from their prized woods. Then there are the high fence operations....they run like a ranch. Yes, that is shooting the dog as it were. Since the states own the animals, aren't these high fence deer "stolen" or is there a state which allows their acquisition legally? I'm guessing stolen. If you put up an 8' fence around 1000 acres, are you shooing the state's deer out before you lock the gate? I think not.
If you kill an animal in the back country, it ought to be illegal not to get it out. I can see how it happens though. Places like MT and WY are big country.
It sounds like I'm blaming video games, but really I blame TV. They show too much high dollar guided hunting. Some of these guys are killing 50 deer a year! They're not eating that. They might eat some and I hope they donate the rest, but who knows, wealth often fogs ethics.
My dad is a real hunter. He finds a spot to go, he develops a game plan and then executes it. He can "feel" the animals around him. Our hunting party was afraid to let him leave us. He would be dragging an animal everytime we did! He also helps others get an animal. I've watched it for years and I'm still amazed. I don't know how he does it. I guess it is because he has live outdoors in MT since he was a kid every weekend and vacation day for 65 years. He learned from his dad. I guess I should have paid more attention. He can tell you more about a deer looking at it's poop than I'll ever know about deer. This same guy can catch 10 fish an hour and let then all go! He's killed an 8 PT or bigger deer almost every year without ever trophy hunting. Just hard work and time living with the deer.
The idea of buying a hunting lease is too much for either of us to consider. It is just wrong. I don't want to be a worse hunter with better guides, land and equipment.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Eli Cash said:
Then what's to be worked up about? If there is no truth, no morality involved, then who cares?
You do what you want and every one else will do what they want, no body is right or wrong. Why bother to even formulate an opinion on a matter with no correct or incorrect answers?
You have no experience killing, which is what your rant was about. Your experience backpacking lacks everything to do with killing, which is what your beef is about. From my standpoint as a backpacker and a hunter, the folly is yours for coming to conclusions from assumptions based on the part which you aren't privy to. You've got lots of the one hand and none of the other, and are drawing a conclusion with both.
I don't spend 70 days in the field, but I've spend plenty of time out there. I estimate I logged ~20 days last year. Used to spend a lot more time in the field in college, when I had more free time. Back then, I was only hunting maybe 10% of the time I spent afield. That percentage is higher now because I can't get out as much. Now that my kids are coming into hiking age, I hope to spend more time out there in general.
@Brian
I think I'm less worked up than others here.
Once again it's a combination of my world view and expereinces that have influenced my opinion. I'm sure we can all agree certain aspects of life get under our skin and we kind of lash out. I'm just going through one of those phases as re; hunting.
Note I'm not calling for hunting bans or any law changes as I am truly in the dark on many of the legal aspects of hunting.
Just trying to get some hunters to hear me out and that you have.
I really can't say how much I appreciate ya'll engaging me in the discussions.
I'd be proud to call any of you my friends.
EC
I think I'm less worked up than others here.
Once again it's a combination of my world view and expereinces that have influenced my opinion. I'm sure we can all agree certain aspects of life get under our skin and we kind of lash out. I'm just going through one of those phases as re; hunting.
Note I'm not calling for hunting bans or any law changes as I am truly in the dark on many of the legal aspects of hunting.
Just trying to get some hunters to hear me out and that you have.
I really can't say how much I appreciate ya'll engaging me in the discussions.
I'd be proud to call any of you my friends.
EC
buck460XVR
New member
I'm thinkin' it must be hard for you to find a hat that fits, eh?
Since you are such a proficient outdoorsman and expert on wild game I find it strange you would refer to a bachelor group as a "family".
The internet is such a wonderful place. Folks can be anything they want or as good as they claim without having to be honest or prove any of it. IME, most of those folks with high degrees of skill are quite modest on the internet. Those that aren't like to stretch things a tad. Then there's those folks that come just to promote a controversy. I thought at first you had some sort of legitimacy and gave you the respect to voice you opinion and tried to glean some sort of sense from your posts. Now it is evident that you are here create controversy so you can feel some sort of superiority. You came to our house and urinated on the carpet. Don't let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.
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@Huntaz:
"You have no experience killing, which is what your rant was about."
I respectfully disagree; the rant is about human and animal interactions. I could have killed numerous animals numerous times, I chose not to. I often carry a 9mm or .45, more for 2 legs in So AZ/TX. (drug runners with AK's…seen 'em near Nogales/Arivaca) so certainly have the means.
It goes back to the posters analogy that since I have not driven drunk I can't comment on drunk drivers or be against it. Huntaz you spend time doing both so perhaps more qualified to comment. Do your interactions with animals vary wether you are armed/hunting or just hiking? Perhaps animals can get the vibes and underlying intentions.
Dunno…
EC
"You have no experience killing, which is what your rant was about."
I respectfully disagree; the rant is about human and animal interactions. I could have killed numerous animals numerous times, I chose not to. I often carry a 9mm or .45, more for 2 legs in So AZ/TX. (drug runners with AK's…seen 'em near Nogales/Arivaca) so certainly have the means.
It goes back to the posters analogy that since I have not driven drunk I can't comment on drunk drivers or be against it. Huntaz you spend time doing both so perhaps more qualified to comment. Do your interactions with animals vary wether you are armed/hunting or just hiking? Perhaps animals can get the vibes and underlying intentions.
Dunno…
EC
OP,pardon me,I vastly overestimated your powers of reading comprehension.I will try to simplify it so you can understand.
The process of farming the sunflowers killed everything else on the miles and miles of clean fields.Clean corners.Crop dusting,pest and weed control.
Farm machinery generates "collateral casualties"
I'm not bashing the farmer.We all eat pretty well because they provide.
If you have a field of any veggie crop,the biodiversity that was there before the crop is competition which is eliminated or mitigated.
That is reality.
Gentle bears?My former spouse has the scars from a bear who chomped down on her through our tent in Alaska.If I believed as you do,we would be a dead couple.Instead,the bear is dead.That is my experience.But,hey,I invite you to follow the path of ...Was it Timothy Treadwell?Mr Bear Man?If you check you tube,you can find a recording...he did not have time to get the lense cap off,but there is audio of him and his girlfriend screaming as they are torn apart by a sweet bear friend.Experience.
Well,I'm hungry...time for meat.
The process of farming the sunflowers killed everything else on the miles and miles of clean fields.Clean corners.Crop dusting,pest and weed control.
Farm machinery generates "collateral casualties"
I'm not bashing the farmer.We all eat pretty well because they provide.
If you have a field of any veggie crop,the biodiversity that was there before the crop is competition which is eliminated or mitigated.
That is reality.
Gentle bears?My former spouse has the scars from a bear who chomped down on her through our tent in Alaska.If I believed as you do,we would be a dead couple.Instead,the bear is dead.That is my experience.But,hey,I invite you to follow the path of ...Was it Timothy Treadwell?Mr Bear Man?If you check you tube,you can find a recording...he did not have time to get the lense cap off,but there is audio of him and his girlfriend screaming as they are torn apart by a sweet bear friend.Experience.
Well,I'm hungry...time for meat.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Eli Cash said:
There are things that annoy me because they effect me personally. For instance, I can't stand when people call my pizzeria and don't have the foggiest idea what they want to buy or they want "That sauce you make." on their wings, as if there's only 1 or 2 instead of 30. However, I couldn't care less if they do that to somebody else's shop because it's not a moral issue and it doesn't effect me.
There are also moral issues that upset me greatly without actually effecting me directly. I'm bothered because moral violations should bother moral people.
Since you don't believe that there is any objective moral criteria involved and these hunters are not effecting you in any way, why would you have any opinion whatsoever, say nothing of being bothered enough by it to join a forum for the singular purpose of complaining about it?
This would be like me joining a gardening forum to complain about people making genetic crosses of petunias. I don't do it, there's no moral issue, I don't even know anything about it, except I think it might be easy so I go complain about people who do it, just because I don't think they should do something that's so easy. Why would I do that?
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