tahunua001
New member
I think I only got a B for it.
Hunters Unethical?
- Thread starter Eli Cash
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Kreyzhorse
New member
With all due respect, until you've hunted, taken the life of an animal, felt the body cool as you cleaned it and then fed your family and friends with the flesh, your criticism is without merit.
With that said, this forum caters to all kinds of shooters so if you can actually contribute, there are lots of opportunities for you to do so in the handgun or rifle sections.
With that said, this forum caters to all kinds of shooters so if you can actually contribute, there are lots of opportunities for you to do so in the handgun or rifle sections.
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tahunua001
New member
I am interested by how personal this thread is being taken. I have seen a number made by people who do not agree with hunting, eating meat, ETC, none were so respectfully critical of hunting as this one. the OP has even gone so far as to limit it to trophy hunters rather than meat hunters, yet everyone else just seems to read the words "hunting is unethical, and hunters are bad".
Kreyzhorse
New member
Tahunua, I understood the OP is discussing trophy hunting, however trophy or meat hunting is still "hunting".
"Zero skill or intelligence" isn't a ringing endorsement of any hunter in my opinion so yes, insulting the forum won't win you many friends here.
That's funny because in the post I read he even talked bad about his 12 year old neice.
I don't see how adding the prefix "trophy" changes his obvious attitude about hunters and hunting
I didn't see any explanations as to why you have to be smarter if you're hunting for the meat.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Been a hunter and outdoorsman since I was a kid--and that's many and many a decade ago. So, yeah, wandering along and not particularly hunting, I've walked up on various critters. Or have been just sitting and looking and had critters come toward me.
If you're not making much noise, critters don't go all bonkers over you. Generally.
But the range of hunting competency varies a bunch. Some folks just can't see animals. It's an experience and skill thing. Others, okay, so-so at hunting success. Some, a high level of success.
My point, if I have one--and if I part my hair right, it won't show--is that you can't fairly judge the world of hunting by what you read on the Internet. Hard enough with the hunting magazines, as well. One thing to remember is "There's no one size fits all" when it comes to any human endeavor of whatever sort. Some folks are good, ethical, skilled, yada, yada, yada--and others ain't worth a tinker's dam ridin' or walkin'.
If you're not making much noise, critters don't go all bonkers over you. Generally.
But the range of hunting competency varies a bunch. Some folks just can't see animals. It's an experience and skill thing. Others, okay, so-so at hunting success. Some, a high level of success.
My point, if I have one--and if I part my hair right, it won't show--is that you can't fairly judge the world of hunting by what you read on the Internet. Hard enough with the hunting magazines, as well. One thing to remember is "There's no one size fits all" when it comes to any human endeavor of whatever sort. Some folks are good, ethical, skilled, yada, yada, yada--and others ain't worth a tinker's dam ridin' or walkin'.
yes there is a lot of unethical behavior. There is indeed a 'shoot' mentality thats nothing more then a "hey look what i shot'.
Its like the people who spend 10,000 for a 8 day guided hunt where all they get to take back is the head and hide. not the 800 pounds of meat off that elk.
look at the videos and magazines, its all HORNS.
Its like the people who spend 10,000 for a 8 day guided hunt where all they get to take back is the head and hide. not the 800 pounds of meat off that elk.
look at the videos and magazines, its all HORNS.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Bezoar, while the shooter's priority may be the rack and cape, the meat still gets eaten by somebody. By whom? Guide, probably--but it's not my business to worry about it.
My longstanding joke about not hunting in Africa is, "I can't eat a whole elephant!", knowing full well that local tribesmen won't waste one iota of the meat.
My longstanding joke about not hunting in Africa is, "I can't eat a whole elephant!", knowing full well that local tribesmen won't waste one iota of the meat.
NoSecondBest
New member
I've been hunting well over 50 years now and still love getting out and doing it. I hunt for the pleasure of being outdoors and seeing what nature has to offer. I love eating venison....no antibiotics or high cholesterol and it tastes really great. I've shot well over a hundred deer (lost count quite a few years ago, might be 140-150 now?). I don't have one set of horns to show for it. I don't eat the horns. I've shot a lot of "nice" bucks but that wasn't why I shot them. I know guys who hunt for big racks but still enjoy eating the meat when they get one. Unfortunately, I know a lot of guys who shoot anything and get a thrill just shooting something. Their motto is "if it's brown, it's down". This last group is the group I personally have a problem with. One person I know (not a friend, just a fellow sporting clays shooter) shoots all the deer he can, bucks or does, and then complains he can't find anyone to take the meat. He doesn't like venison. Several of us suggested he contact a soup kitchen or contact the DEC. They have a program here in NY where you can donate the venison. He says "that's a lot of trouble just to get rid of the meat". Yes, there are unethical hunters but there are a lot of unethical people in the world. That doesn't keep them from getting a hunting license, selling cars, or doing anything else that is legal. My wife's a vegan. She doesn't complain about me eating meat and she's a great cook. She made a choice and so did I. You're all welcome to do what ever you believe in and I have no problem with that. If you're honest and respect what I do we'll never have a problem getting along. Welcome to the forum.
2damnold4this
New member
Hunting does take skill depending upon the type of hunting being done. It may not take much skill to shoot a deer in a high fenced area in front of a corn feeder but that isn't what hunting is about for most people.
It also doesn't take much skill to wait under a bridge for a fat billy goat to pass or bait people on the Internet.
It also doesn't take much skill to wait under a bridge for a fat billy goat to pass or bait people on the Internet.
Great stuff…
I really appreciate the overwhelming civility in the face of my awkward introduction.
I should clarify a few things; I'm not a "vegan" but my personal groceries decisions are vegan.
RE: We are "smarter" due to a meat protein diet I present the Gorilla, canine teeth, pretty darned smart for non-humans, incredibly powerful; vegetarians.
Sure they get some protein from bugs and such but they do not hunt or scavenge meat. There are more dumb as rock critters who are carnivores. The teeth evolution doesn't entirely fly. Are you aware all the "human evolution" up to Homo sapien is based on a very small collection of bones? No complete skeletons.
I whole heartedly agree hunting is superior to factory raised animals which is unquestionably cruelty.
Given, some game at some times is going to be more challenging. My field season is Spring through September. I know we have to be wary of hunters and I encounter them regularly. They don't dig us being out there and tend to act as-if we're encroaching on their territory. It kind of bugs me that while I enjoy the encounters I should be chasing them away, firing a shot from my 9mm over their head to give them a real sense of what humans are capable of. In fact I'm probably doing more harm as many animals get the sense humans are harmless base don encounters with me and similar.
Anyway it just bugs me, especially when I see hand gun hunters. You have to be such a danged good shot to drop an animal with a hand gun and the goal as I understand it is one shot=down..
BTW I did not edit my post the "sheriff" did so I can not be responsible for the entire tone of it.
EC
I really appreciate the overwhelming civility in the face of my awkward introduction.
I should clarify a few things; I'm not a "vegan" but my personal groceries decisions are vegan.
RE: We are "smarter" due to a meat protein diet I present the Gorilla, canine teeth, pretty darned smart for non-humans, incredibly powerful; vegetarians.
Sure they get some protein from bugs and such but they do not hunt or scavenge meat. There are more dumb as rock critters who are carnivores. The teeth evolution doesn't entirely fly. Are you aware all the "human evolution" up to Homo sapien is based on a very small collection of bones? No complete skeletons.
I whole heartedly agree hunting is superior to factory raised animals which is unquestionably cruelty.
Given, some game at some times is going to be more challenging. My field season is Spring through September. I know we have to be wary of hunters and I encounter them regularly. They don't dig us being out there and tend to act as-if we're encroaching on their territory. It kind of bugs me that while I enjoy the encounters I should be chasing them away, firing a shot from my 9mm over their head to give them a real sense of what humans are capable of. In fact I'm probably doing more harm as many animals get the sense humans are harmless base don encounters with me and similar.
Anyway it just bugs me, especially when I see hand gun hunters. You have to be such a danged good shot to drop an animal with a hand gun and the goal as I understand it is one shot=down..
BTW I did not edit my post the "sheriff" did so I can not be responsible for the entire tone of it.
EC
An opinion piece can't be taken for absolute fact. And as you may read from replies on this thread that many people who hunt have years of experiences, motives, evidence, and beliefs contrary to your personal feelings that hunting is unethical.
Eating healthier meat, wildlife conservation, having an active lifestyle, connecting with nature and getting outdoors are all reasons for why I hunt. Not to simply go shoot a living creature and claim it as a trophy.
Additionally, I second the posts from actual hunters who know the difference in wildlife activity before and during hunting seasons and the difficulty it takes to fully harvest an animal.
Eating healthier meat, wildlife conservation, having an active lifestyle, connecting with nature and getting outdoors are all reasons for why I hunt. Not to simply go shoot a living creature and claim it as a trophy.
Additionally, I second the posts from actual hunters who know the difference in wildlife activity before and during hunting seasons and the difficulty it takes to fully harvest an animal.
I get that I'm taking a side path,but it is about the tone of the OP.
In the state of Colorado,it is a felony to waste the meat.Look it up,read the regs.Along with ethics,it is a matter of law and criminality.You are painting with a broad brush based on a false premise and it is offensive.
I detect Alynski:Separate out one portion of a group and marginalize them.
"Hey,I'm a shooter too,just like you,love the 2nd Ammendment!.....But those Bambi murderers ....."
Then "Well,from my narcissistic,arrogant position of Superiority,I will apologise if I have offended and claim it is because I am passionate"
BS.If you apologise as you do something the apology is a lie.There is no contrition.You are saying "I know I am offensive,but I am arrogant enough to not care"
I genuinely do not care what you eat.That is your sovereign territory,and none of my business.If you tell me you are vegetarian,I'll respect your preference.I'll even tell you about a chilified black bean/hominy dish I cook.
I like meat.Some,(not all),Vegan folks have a political agenda about what I eat.They are the facists with a problem,IMO.
"You don't need that New York Strip,you don't need that 20 round magazine,you don't need that SUV...." I do not need you!
You see,OP,I believe in Liberty,yours,and mine.
From what you have written,I see someone who believes he is superior,who wants to restrict others.
Am I right?
In the state of Colorado,it is a felony to waste the meat.Look it up,read the regs.Along with ethics,it is a matter of law and criminality.You are painting with a broad brush based on a false premise and it is offensive.
I detect Alynski:Separate out one portion of a group and marginalize them.
"Hey,I'm a shooter too,just like you,love the 2nd Ammendment!.....But those Bambi murderers ....."
Then "Well,from my narcissistic,arrogant position of Superiority,I will apologise if I have offended and claim it is because I am passionate"
BS.If you apologise as you do something the apology is a lie.There is no contrition.You are saying "I know I am offensive,but I am arrogant enough to not care"
I genuinely do not care what you eat.That is your sovereign territory,and none of my business.If you tell me you are vegetarian,I'll respect your preference.I'll even tell you about a chilified black bean/hominy dish I cook.
I like meat.Some,(not all),Vegan folks have a political agenda about what I eat.They are the facists with a problem,IMO.
"You don't need that New York Strip,you don't need that 20 round magazine,you don't need that SUV...." I do not need you!
You see,OP,I believe in Liberty,yours,and mine.
From what you have written,I see someone who believes he is superior,who wants to restrict others.
Am I right?
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Eli Cash said:
Careful with assumptions. Just because you don't think they can do it or you can't do it doesn't mean the guy hunting with the handgun can't do it...
I say as the guy who just this season shot a doe through the heart from 100 yards with my Encore Pro Hunter handgun.
Choice of implement really has no bearing on injury rates. I've talked to a whole lot of hunters and almost every one matches my own experience. Approximately 7-10% of big game animals will be injured and not recovered. This applies across the range, from archery to handguns, shotguns, rifles and black powder guns.
The supposed ethics of hunting is actually amusing to me. What could possibly be the rationale for claiming that hunting is unethical but crushing mice with a steel wire is not? Or poisoning them. Or electrocuting mosquitoes. Smashing flies. etc, etc. It's either "moral" to kill animals or it is immoral or there are no morals. Those are the only choices.
buck460XVR
New member
Jane Goodall first discovered Chimpanzees hunt and eat small mammals. There is also evidence that Gorillas also eat small vertebrates such as monkeys and antelope. Those apes, both large and small are considered, like us humans.....omnivorous. Since you're a a geologist and not a biologist, I understand your confusion and the reference to rocks. Along with the inclusion of meat in our diet, once humans learned how to control fire and cook the meat they killed, it, like the vegetables they cooked became easier for the body to digest and thus more protein and nutrients went to our brain. The most intelligent creatures on earth eat meat. Whales, dolphins, the big cats and canines. Pigs are considered really smart....and they are known to eat meat too.
But none of this has to do with the ethics of hunting. At one point in our evolutionary food chain, hunting had no ethics, we had to in order to survive. In northern climates where huge amounts of energy is required to maintain body heat, the inclusion of fat from other mammals that eat meat was and still is needed in the diet or folks will starve to death with full stomachs. In many parts of the world, it is still done without ethics in order for those higher up on the food chain to live. The majority of their prey? Herbivores....Veggies. Again, while not really needed in our modern society in the continental United States to survive, the removal of predators and the adaptation of many prey animals makes it necessary to control their populations. It is not always pretty and may not always fit into what many consider a "challenging" hunt, but it needs to be done or the animals will suffer more by dying some other way. No different than excess dogs and cats in animal shelters. If you don't like to do it, just be thankful there are others that do.
tahunua001
New member
this is kindof a bit overly critical of criticism. that is like saying until you've become an elected official, any criticism of president Obama has no merit. until you drink and drive you have no room to criticize drunk drivers. there is always room for outside criticism. now I will second that actually participating in a task can give a lot more incite than what you read in magazines and see on the outdoor channel but to say that observational criticism has no merit is completely wrong.
one thing I will add is that animals are adapting to hunters and hunting seasons. here in my area you do see a great amount of animals in the summer months and late spring, but as soon as shots start ringing then animals tend to get nocturnal very quickly. they relax around humans when there is no perceived danger of hunting, in much the same way that antelope will relax around a watering hole if the nearby lion pride is drinking from the same watering hole.
this is pretty much correct. an 800 pound bull is going to be a very old animal and not likely to be very edible anymore. in addition to horns, bones(about 40 pounds), hide(about 30 pounds), inedible organs(50 pounds), fat, tendons, sinew, and other inedible tissues(close to 100 pounds)... subtract all that and what you have leftover is the amount of actual, edible meat from your average elk.
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Thanks again,
Way to much to comment on as many points simply attempt to sidetrack the basic premise of my posts, even I got lost for a second.
Point is it is NOT difficult or rare to get CLOSE to wildlife. See photos. I encountered this family daily for a week in N. UT/S. Wy region… Real challenge to drop one of these. Note one is so concerned it won't stop grazing. This is a fact.
The idea they get skittish after the first shot is comical; "They are hard to hunt because we are hunting"?
You guys might have to admit you aint the Dan'l Boones you think you are if a stumbling geologist encounters more game than you in your camo and deer p. See photos….
On the Native American approach, I was fortunate to spend ~ a year on a reservation and observed the approach to hunting. The LAST thing any of them would do is smile and pose with the carcass. There is a thankful almost apologetic sorrowful attitude. An offering is made for the animal and prayers during sweats….
As we all may imagine, none of our world views on this topic are changed but at least I presented some observations and the why and wherefores of my opinions.
BTW My original thread was not titled unethical so I work from a disadvantage. I was told to refrain from political labels suffice to say I find very few attributes of the current administration admirable on any level.
EC
Way to much to comment on as many points simply attempt to sidetrack the basic premise of my posts, even I got lost for a second.
Point is it is NOT difficult or rare to get CLOSE to wildlife. See photos. I encountered this family daily for a week in N. UT/S. Wy region… Real challenge to drop one of these. Note one is so concerned it won't stop grazing. This is a fact.
The idea they get skittish after the first shot is comical; "They are hard to hunt because we are hunting"?
You guys might have to admit you aint the Dan'l Boones you think you are if a stumbling geologist encounters more game than you in your camo and deer p. See photos….
On the Native American approach, I was fortunate to spend ~ a year on a reservation and observed the approach to hunting. The LAST thing any of them would do is smile and pose with the carcass. There is a thankful almost apologetic sorrowful attitude. An offering is made for the animal and prayers during sweats….
As we all may imagine, none of our world views on this topic are changed but at least I presented some observations and the why and wherefores of my opinions.
BTW My original thread was not titled unethical so I work from a disadvantage. I was told to refrain from political labels suffice to say I find very few attributes of the current administration admirable on any level.
EC
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BTW I had been on a couple deer hunts as a kid in So.Alabama near Tensaw. I still recall the field dressing and was more fascinated than disgusted and had venison for dinner! Wasn't all that good as i recall but I understand game is an acquired taste and I was like 10 yrs old…
So I'm not some bleedingnheart liberal (bleeding heart conservative) 
EC
So I'm not some bleedingnheart liberal (bleeding heart conservative
) EC
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
Your original title called hunters "Jack Wagons". Do you suppose that's better? The word means idiot, loser, lame, pathetic, etc.
We don't do invectives here. Do you have a word that you find more acceptable than "unethical" without being insulting to hunters? I'd be happy to fix it for you.
If you find the "administration" not to your liking, feel free to find the door.
We don't do invectives here. Do you have a word that you find more acceptable than "unethical" without being insulting to hunters? I'd be happy to fix it for you.
If you find the "administration" not to your liking, feel free to find the door.
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