How to ship firearms
- Thread starter dogtown tom
- Start date
Frank Ettin
Administrator
For that particular purpose, any one of those choices would work. The problems can arise when the will says other sorts of things.JimDandy said:
carguychris
New member
Postal regulations update...
Since I wrote my earlier posts, the structure of the U.S. Postal Regulations has changed.
The regulations regarding mailing firearms have been removed from Section 601 of the Domestic Mail Manual and consolidated in Publication 52, "Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail", sections 431 thru 435.
My earlier post has been edited accordingly.
Since I wrote my earlier posts, the structure of the U.S. Postal Regulations has changed.
The regulations regarding mailing firearms have been removed from Section 601 of the Domestic Mail Manual and consolidated in Publication 52, "Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail", sections 431 thru 435.
My earlier post has been edited accordingly.
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Common Carrier Notification
Not sure if this was covered in a previous post and forgive me if beating a dead horse but I saw reference to notification to the common carrier that the shipment contains a firearm in these posts a little unclear:
"UPS policy says you must notify them that you are shipping a firearm. Federal law only requires notification if you are shipping interstate to a non licensee."
Confusing where the second sentence came from as I can't seem to find it in the UPS Tarriff or guidelines and the only reference they appear to have concerning notification of contents is:
"When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk."
FedEx is pretty straightforward as quoted in the original post:
"FedEx requires you notify them when you are shipping a firearm."
This about USPS:
"There is no requirement to notify USPS that you are shipping a rifle or shotgun."
That might be a statement for the lawyers as some definitions of "common carrier" fit the post office, though the reference to notification by the BATF is under the section referring to carriers such as FedEx and UPS and not the seperate USPS guidelines, which would indicate to me they have no requirement to notify the post office. In a courtroom, who knows...
Here's my point: It's not just a good idea to notify the common carrier (for our discussion and BATF guidelines as FedEx and UPS) the shipment contains a firearm, it's federal law referring to all firearms and I believe these company policies reflect the federal requirement for common carrier notification:
"A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]"
Not sure if this was covered in a previous post and forgive me if beating a dead horse but I saw reference to notification to the common carrier that the shipment contains a firearm in these posts a little unclear:
"UPS policy says you must notify them that you are shipping a firearm. Federal law only requires notification if you are shipping interstate to a non licensee."
Confusing where the second sentence came from as I can't seem to find it in the UPS Tarriff or guidelines and the only reference they appear to have concerning notification of contents is:
"When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk."
FedEx is pretty straightforward as quoted in the original post:
"FedEx requires you notify them when you are shipping a firearm."
This about USPS:
"There is no requirement to notify USPS that you are shipping a rifle or shotgun."
That might be a statement for the lawyers as some definitions of "common carrier" fit the post office, though the reference to notification by the BATF is under the section referring to carriers such as FedEx and UPS and not the seperate USPS guidelines, which would indicate to me they have no requirement to notify the post office. In a courtroom, who knows...
Here's my point: It's not just a good idea to notify the common carrier (for our discussion and BATF guidelines as FedEx and UPS) the shipment contains a firearm, it's federal law referring to all firearms and I believe these company policies reflect the federal requirement for common carrier notification:
"A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]"
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carguychris
New member
This is NOT a federal legal requirement in all cases; it depends on to whom the firearm is going.fastfr8r said:
From 27 CFR 478.31 with my emphasis in boldface:
As an aside, AFAIK the ORM-D "Cartridges, Small Arms" label on the exterior of a parcel containing ammunition has typically been considered to be adequate written notice under 478.31(a), although I'm not sure about the new "Limited Quantity" black-and-white diamond symbol thingy.27 CFR 478.31(a) said:
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More...
Carguychris,
Am not going for a blanket statement here, was under the impression the original post was aimed at us non FFL or LEO folks just trying to ship a firearm legally, but would like to learn a bit more about any exceptions. Not sure I follow your previous reply; trying to find something in your post to show an example of not requiring notification to the common carrier and coming up short (probably me trying to read legaleze
). Saw you had highlighted eligible parties to receive a firearm and thought we are talking about any requirement to notify a common carrier. The only thing I see is first a confirmation of the requirement and then a caveat where the person accompanies the shipment which would require notifying the person in charge of it's transport.
Carguychris,
Am not going for a blanket statement here, was under the impression the original post was aimed at us non FFL or LEO folks just trying to ship a firearm legally, but would like to learn a bit more about any exceptions. Not sure I follow your previous reply; trying to find something in your post to show an example of not requiring notification to the common carrier and coming up short (probably me trying to read legaleze
). Saw you had highlighted eligible parties to receive a firearm and thought we are talking about any requirement to notify a common carrier. The only thing I see is first a confirmation of the requirement and then a caveat where the person accompanies the shipment which would require notifying the person in charge of it's transport.carguychris
New member
Fastfr8r, for the purposes of this discussion, you can ignore everything after the word "Provided". Those provisions only apply when you travel by air, water, rail, or highway respectively, accompanied by a firearm that belongs to you. (FWIW handing the firearm to a counter clerk or station agent accomplishes the same thing under law as personally notifying the "pilot, captain, conductor or operator", as that person will be given a cargo manifest. Transport regulations are often phrased this way.)
I'll strip some of the legalese out.
Please note that I'm only writing about the requirements under federal law. State and local law and the carrier's policies may impose additional requirements.
[Mandatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.
This is not legal advice. Caveat emptor and YMMV.]
I'll strip some of the legalese out.
IOW the notification requirement applies when the firearm is NOT being shipped to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector.Carguychris Paraphrasing 27 CFR 478.31(a) said:
Please note that I'm only writing about the requirements under federal law. State and local law and the carrier's policies may impose additional requirements.
[Mandatory disclaimer: I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.
This is not legal advice. Caveat emptor and YMMV.]
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Even more...
Carguychris,
When you read Part 478 of the CFR it does say exactly what you have pointed out and my confusion comes when you read the BATF website interpretation of that same statute:
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
Do you suppose their interpretation is (dare I even think it?) in conflict with the written statute? The CFR mentions written notification only in reference to "any person other than a licensed importer, etc."; what person would they be referring to? And again, we are confirming a requirement for notification, in this case written. The BATF FAQ on their website are pretty clear about notifying the carrier; as for whether the statute supports that requirement verbatim may be still another one for the lawyers. My head hurts...
Carguychris,
When you read Part 478 of the CFR it does say exactly what you have pointed out and my confusion comes when you read the BATF website interpretation of that same statute:
Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
Do you suppose their interpretation is (dare I even think it?) in conflict with the written statute? The CFR mentions written notification only in reference to "any person other than a licensed importer, etc."; what person would they be referring to? And again, we are confirming a requirement for notification, in this case written. The BATF FAQ on their website are pretty clear about notifying the carrier; as for whether the statute supports that requirement verbatim may be still another one for the lawyers. My head hurts...
carguychris
New member
You be the judge.fastfr8r said:
One's head often hurts when one tries to reconcile the ATF online FAQ with statute law, or even with the ATF's own official written rulings. This is not the only example I've seen.fastfr8r said:
When in doubt, however, I follow the law or the ruling, NOT the FAQ.
Just for the record, I've always honestly divulged what was in the package when I've shipped UPS, mainly to ensure that I can recover the insured value with minimal headaches. I don't, however, go into any more detail than absolutely necessary, regardless of the item. ("Dinner plates"; "Car stereo"; "Books"; "Ammunition"; "Firearm".) IMHO the make, model, and serial number is none of their business unless and until there is an insurance claim.
dogtown tom
New member
The ATF FAQ answer is wrong.
ATF knows its wrong and has admitted as much in letters and in the ATF FFL Newsletter..........but they still haven't pulled the FAQ answer.
If you read the actual citations to the US Code and CFR underneath the FAQ answer you'll see that notification is only required when shipping interstate to a nonlicensee..........and that's already a violation of federal law.
ATF knows its wrong and has admitted as much in letters and in the ATF FFL Newsletter..........but they still haven't pulled the FAQ answer.
If you read the actual citations to the US Code and CFR underneath the FAQ answer you'll see that notification is only required when shipping interstate to a nonlicensee..........and that's already a violation of federal law.
carguychris
New member
OK, so why have I heard that I can't mail stripped serial-numbered rifle receivers, like AR lowers?
This issue is confusing because the postal regulations do not directly address a stripped receiver from a rifle or shotgun.
The key thing to understand is the term "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" as it's used in the postal regulations. From Publication 52, with my emphasis underlined:
Let's look a little closer at the definitions:
To clarify what IS mailable by a non-licensee, we need to examine what is NOT considered to be a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person":
In summary:
If ALL of these elements are not in the package, and/or the overall length requirement is not met, the gun may be considered a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" under the catch-all clause in 431.2.b. Thus, a stripped AR lower receiver is implicitly nonmailable, unless it's accompanied by all the other bits needed to make a mailable rifle.
While we're discussing this, what about a pistol grip (aka pistol-grip-only or PGO) shotgun, i.e. a two-handed shotgun without a buttstock?
A pistol grip shotgun is not a shoulder weapon, and additionally, some models have a barrel under 18 inches in length and/or an overall length under 26 inches. Thus, such a weapon would clearly NOT qualify as a mailable shotgun.
Whoa, hold on here, the Postal Service has it all mixed up. A handgun is NOT the same thing as a short-barreled rifle, because you don't need an NFA tax stamp for a handgun. The ATF has explicitly said that a pistol grip shotgun is neither a short-barreled shotgun nor a handgun, and the ATF does not classify a stripped AR-15 receiver that has never been previously assembled into a firearm as either a handgun or a long gun. Both a stripped rifle receiver and a pistol grip shotgun are an "Other Firearm", and it says so in the instructions on the Form 4473.
That's what the ATF says, but remember, the mails are NOT regulated by the ATF- they're regulated by the U.S. Postal Service. The USPS doesn't care what the ATF regulations say- they care what THEIR OWN regulations say (and vice versa).
This issue is easier to understand if you mentally set aside everything you know about ATF firearms regulations and examine the postal regulations at face value.
It doesn't make any sense to call a stripped receiver a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" when there is no barrel in the package. An AR lower is just a metal shell! It can't fire a projectile by itself!
No, it really doesn't make sense in that respect, but you have to go with what the regulations say.
A post-1898 frame or receiver is broadly considered to be a firearm under 18 U.S. Code Chapter 44 [specifically § 921(a)(3)(B)].
Any firearm that does NOT meet the definition of Rifle or Shotgun under Pub.52 431.4 is either implicitly or explicitly a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" under 431.2, and is thus nonmailable by parties other than those listed in Pub.52 431.21 thru 431.25.
[IANAL disclaimers apply.]
This issue is confusing because the postal regulations do not directly address a stripped receiver from a rifle or shotgun.
The key thing to understand is the term "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" as it's used in the postal regulations. From Publication 52, with my emphasis underlined:
[The "parties listed in this section" are licensed firearms manufacturers, dealers, or importers, or certain military and government agencies, as discussed previously.]
Let's look a little closer at the definitions:
Any "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" is considered equivalent to a handgun, including short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles. However, the definition is NOT limited to these types; the "catch-all" clause in 431.2.b ["...include, but are not limited to..."] says that OTHER types of concealable firearms are included too.
To clarify what IS mailable by a non-licensee, we need to examine what is NOT considered to be a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person":
A rifle or shotgun is a "shoulder weapon" that "cannot be concealed on a person". Each is described as "having a barrel" of a certain length.
Clear enough.
In summary:
- Receiver (or frame) + Shoulder Stock + Barrel
16 Inches or Longer + Overall Length 26 Inches or Greater + Cannot be Concealed on a Person = Mailable Rifle
[*]Receiver (or frame) + Shoulder Stock + Barrel18 Inches or Longer + Overall Length 26 Inches or Greater + Cannot be Concealed on a Person = Mailable Shotgun
If ALL of these elements are not in the package, and/or the overall length requirement is not met, the gun may be considered a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" under the catch-all clause in 431.2.b. Thus, a stripped AR lower receiver is implicitly nonmailable, unless it's accompanied by all the other bits needed to make a mailable rifle.
While we're discussing this, what about a pistol grip (aka pistol-grip-only or PGO) shotgun, i.e. a two-handed shotgun without a buttstock?
A pistol grip shotgun is not a shoulder weapon, and additionally, some models have a barrel under 18 inches in length and/or an overall length under 26 inches. Thus, such a weapon would clearly NOT qualify as a mailable shotgun.
Whoa, hold on here, the Postal Service has it all mixed up. A handgun is NOT the same thing as a short-barreled rifle, because you don't need an NFA tax stamp for a handgun. The ATF has explicitly said that a pistol grip shotgun is neither a short-barreled shotgun nor a handgun, and the ATF does not classify a stripped AR-15 receiver that has never been previously assembled into a firearm as either a handgun or a long gun. Both a stripped rifle receiver and a pistol grip shotgun are an "Other Firearm", and it says so in the instructions on the Form 4473.
That's what the ATF says, but remember, the mails are NOT regulated by the ATF- they're regulated by the U.S. Postal Service. The USPS doesn't care what the ATF regulations say- they care what THEIR OWN regulations say (and vice versa).
This issue is easier to understand if you mentally set aside everything you know about ATF firearms regulations and examine the postal regulations at face value.
It doesn't make any sense to call a stripped receiver a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" when there is no barrel in the package. An AR lower is just a metal shell! It can't fire a projectile by itself!
No, it really doesn't make sense in that respect, but you have to go with what the regulations say.
A post-1898 frame or receiver is broadly considered to be a firearm under 18 U.S. Code Chapter 44 [specifically § 921(a)(3)(B)].
Any firearm that does NOT meet the definition of Rifle or Shotgun under Pub.52 431.4 is either implicitly or explicitly a "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" under 431.2, and is thus nonmailable by parties other than those listed in Pub.52 431.21 thru 431.25.
[IANAL disclaimers apply.]
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What about muzzle loaders? The USPS site gives a detailed legal definition of "Antique Firearms" but then doesn't mention them again. Can I assume this means that they are not regulated in any way? Are they completely separate from the "Rifle/Shotgun" category? http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm
I have been in touch with someone who specializes in repairing a certain type of pistol that I need to have repaired. It is old but not legally an antique. He is presently not at his licensed place of business, but is visiting his mother in another state for the entire month of December. He said I can ship it to him at his mother's house, and he will repair it quickly and send it right back. (I am guessing he does not have much to do there.) Are there red flags or possible violations in shipping to an FFL who is not at his official place of business?
Frank Ettin
Administrator
Yes, his FFL does not authorize him to conduct business under his license anywhere but his licensed premises or at a gun show (18 USC 923(j)):cjwils said:
Frank Ettin
Administrator
No.AndyB731 said:
Aguila Blanca
Staff
No.AndyB731 said:
carguychris
New member
Correct. Let's look at USPS Publication 52 § 432.2, my emphasis underlined:AndyB731 said:
Between = both the sender and recipient must be "authorized persons" per the ensuing § 432.21; the list basically consists of FFL dealers, importers, and manufacturers, along with certain military, LE, USPS, and gov't security personnel.
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I've read this entire thread and it is obvious that I can ship hand guns via UPS or FedEx as long as I am shipping them to an FFL holder. No worries there.....
My question is this: I have three hand guns to ship. Which is best: ship all three in the same box or ship each one in a separate container?
And for Kev that lives in Florida and whos dad has 30+ guns in California. This is exactly your scenario. I am the executor of a friends estate. He has passed, the will has been executed and the estate has closed. The will specifically said that these guns go to his son. The trick as I understand it is the way I label the package when I send it. I am to ship from the son, 123 my street, mytown, MS 39999 to Son, C/O FFL Licensee, FFL Holders address, Tok,AK. Coming from himself to himself is not a 'transfer'. Son can just pick the guns up. Therefore the FFL license holder is not required to fill out transfer forms. The FFL holder in Tok, AK that I am shipping to told me this. If that makes sense.
My question is this: I have three hand guns to ship. Which is best: ship all three in the same box or ship each one in a separate container?
And for Kev that lives in Florida and whos dad has 30+ guns in California. This is exactly your scenario. I am the executor of a friends estate. He has passed, the will has been executed and the estate has closed. The will specifically said that these guns go to his son. The trick as I understand it is the way I label the package when I send it. I am to ship from the son, 123 my street, mytown, MS 39999 to Son, C/O FFL Licensee, FFL Holders address, Tok,AK. Coming from himself to himself is not a 'transfer'. Son can just pick the guns up. Therefore the FFL license holder is not required to fill out transfer forms. The FFL holder in Tok, AK that I am shipping to told me this. If that makes sense.
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dogtown tom
New member
I recommend one box. There is no benefit to multiple boxes.
Whoever told you there was a "trick" is giving you terrible advice......and it sounds like a felony.
While Federal law provides an exemption to the typical interstate transfer requirement, this isn't it. And is different than the situation Kev described.
Federal law says the son can come to the state where the firearms are located and take immediate possession. If he then chooses to ship the firearms to himself at his home in another state he can (or he could drive back, take a train or fly with the firearms as checked luggage).
If you ship the firearms to a licensed dealer in the sons state, the son WILL have to do a 4473 and pass NICS. (don't falsify the label as coming from the son....they aren't)
The dealer in Tok, AK is horribly wrong.
It is no different than any other interstate transfer of a firearm.
You (not the son) are shipping a firearm interstate to a licensed dealer. There is no exemption from a 4473/NICS for such a transfer.
If you ship the firearms and falsify the shipping label with the sons name to the sons address in AK....you commit a felony as does the son.
I highly recommend finding another licensed dealer to ship to......this one is an idiot of the highest order.