How similar is a 357 HP to a 45 ACP?

[wojtekimbier]

I didn't see the United States Military jump on any bandwagon when the .357 made it's debut. Did you? The 1911/.45ACP has ended more personal and world conflicts than probably any other handgun caliber out there.

It's funny because 9mm is the most popular handgun caliber in the world.
The US army started using .45 just because two guys shooting random cows told them to. There was no scientific research involved in selecting .45 over any other caliber.
Now, I'm not saying the .45 is bad, just giving some facts.

 

[2damnold4this]

Here is a link to an Army Institute of Pathology video which shows ballistic testing of various historic and modern rounds in ordinance gelatin infused with human bones. From the video, it's clear that the .357 hollow point does more damage than a .45ACP FMJ. In fact, it looks like the 1860 Colt Army firing a .44 lead round ball does almost as much damage as the .45 ACP FMJ from a 1911.

 

[2damnold4this]

The 1911/.45ACP has ended more personal and world conflicts than probably any other handgun caliber out there.

I'm not sure any handgun has ended a world conflict though a case could be made that a handgun played a role in starting WWI.

 

[NoirFan]

The .45 bullet is too slow for serious combat. A bad guy can see it coming and avoid it by casually stepping out of the way.

The .357 bullet on the other hand, has such such high velocity that it actually travels back in time and hits the bad guy before you pull the trigger.

Long live the mighty .357 magnum!

 

[carguychris]

I didn't see the United States Military jump on any bandwagon when the .357 made it's debut. Did you?

The U.S. military of the 1930s was NOT the high-tech well-funded juggernaut of today. The USA was a regional power with a mid-size navy that had a lot of outdated equipment, a small army that was facing withering budget cuts and was saddled with extremely conservative leadership, and an air force that was literally fighting for its very existence. Not much innovating was going on at the time, other than the development of the aircraft carrier and precision aerial bombardment (but those are stories for another day). In 20/20 hindsight, it's remarkable that the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine programs survived. The procurement of a new handgun to replace a design that had only been in service for about 25 years was NOT in the cards.

The 1911/.45ACP has ended more personal and world conflicts than probably any other handgun caliber out there.

It's funny because 9mm is the most popular handgun caliber in the world.

+1, AND 9mm has always been by far the most popular submachine gun caliber, a weapon that's far more commonly used to actually shoot the enemy during battle than a handgun!

(As a footnote, the US military obviously used .45 ACP subguns, but they jumped on the subgun bandwagon relatively late because the aforementioned extremely conservative 1920s-1930s Army leadership famously pooh-poohed the Thompson as a useless gimmick. )

 

[carguychris]

I'm not sure any handgun has ended a world conflict though a case could be made that a handgun played a role in starting WWI.

That too... and the pistol that "started" WWI was .380 ACP.

 

[Crankgrinder]

Boy you sure opened a calibre war. I own both each works in different ways. The .45 uses its weight and momentum to do its work. It offers reliable penetration with less chance of a shoot through, less ricochet and what I call pleasant recoil and less noise due to lower chamber pressures. I think of it as more of a hitting round than a penetrator. 357 does it's work through velocity and because of its smaller diameter will most often penetrate much farther. It offers more foot pounds energy, greater penetration for hunting, much louder, more ricochet and more versatility. It can go from mild to wild with a huge array of bullet weights, shapes and powder charges. The military didn't go to it because it is a revolver cartridge, not because of the cartridge itself. The police (who also have used 45 acp) used it for many years and they are the ones who gave it it's name "king of the street". Both are top notch pistol rounds, each offers advantages and compromises. All calibres of any kind is compromise in exchange for something else, power, capacity,concealment, all are trade offs.

 

[Metalboy]

What I've learned so far here, is that the best way to use the .45, and the .357 magnum is, you shoot the .45 first, than aim right below it with the .357 magnum.
The .357 catches the .45, so the .45 can piggyback it, just like the space shuttle.
So now with combined speed and weight, they become super/duper.

 

[wojtekimbier]

What I've learned so far here, is that the best way to use the .45, and the .357 magnum is, you shoot the .45 first, than aim right below it with the .357 magnum.
The .357 catches the .45, so the .45 can piggyback it, just like the space shuttle.
So now with combined speed and weight, they become super/duper.

With both .45's high mass and momentum, and .357's velocity and KE, you can achieve extremely high KO factors and 98% one-shot stop percentage.
Those numbers will kill the bad guy for sure!

 

[TimSr]

"Knock-down power" was the issue during the historic "Chinese Rebellion." The US introduced the Remington .45 ACP to "knock down" the doped up small framed Chinese attackers. The .38 cal standard could not do the trick. So, "knock-down" became the colloquial term for the effect of the energy of the round. At the time, the longer casing and powder of the .357 was not yet in service. Correct me if this is not factual.

Not only was the .357 not yet created, but neither was the 38 Special which was a major improvemen over the 38 Long Colt used at that time. I believe this conflict was a motivator to upgrade the 38LC as well.

 

[UncleEd]

(QUOTE NOIRFAN
The .45 bullet is too slow for serious combat. A bad guy can see it coming and avoid it by casually stepping out of the way.

The .357 bullet on the other hand, has such such high velocity that it actually travels back in time and hits the bad guy before you pull the trigger. END QUOTE)

This is the best comparison/analysis I have seen in this thread. I whole heartedly agree! Naysayers should waddle away.

 

[Noreaster]

Don't know if you're a hunter but here is a comparison for you. Both rounds work very well but differently, like using a 45/70 vs a 300 Win mag for deer. Both rounds knock the crap out of a deer but one uses speed and one uses mass.

 

[rodfac]

Here we go again...High velocity and a good bullet, vs. a full .45 dia. slug at moderate speed. But I'll opine, that if you can't control the gun and get hits where they count, it's a moot point....357 or .45, you gotta hit to be effective. Rod

 

[tipoc]

The 125 grain hollowpoint police loading in .357 has lots of evidence to show it was the most reliable one shot stop defensive cartridge. The industry has changed so much since then I'm not sure that still stands.

This is said quite often, that the top one shot stopper is the .357 Magnum with a 125 gr. bullet, but there is only one source for this information and that is the writings of Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow and they did not directly say that.

Set aside that their results and opinions are very controversial and let's see what they say.

In there last book, 2001 "Stopping power", they give the Federal and Remington 125 gr. JHP rounds a OSS rating of 96%. But the Winchester 125 gr. jhp they give a 87% rating. So it's not all 125 gr. loads it's only some and it depends on the bullet type and velocity.

In the same book they give the Federal 115 gr. 9mm+P+ JHP a 91% rating. They allow the Winchester 9mm +p+ 115 gr. a 90% rating. Which is higher than some of the 125 gr. .357 magnum loads. Bullets with 124 gr. and 147 gr. jhps do worse according to them.

For the 45 acp they give the 230 gr. Fed. Hydra-Shok a 96% rating and the same for the 185 gr. Rem Golden Saber. They hand out a 93% rating for the 230 gr. Speer Gold Dot.

So they place some loading of the 45 acp on a plane with the .357 magnum and ahead of some loadings of the 125 gr. .357.

By the way they rate the "best" 10mm at 90% OSS.
The "best" 41 Magnum at 90 %.
The best 40 S&W at 94%.

This was in their last book after years of criticism. They had backed off some the idea that the 125 gr. 357Mag was the "best OSS round". They had always held that only specific bullets from specific manufacturers met that criteria.

But the whole idea was off base anyways.

I think if you decide on what you want to do with the gun (defense, hunt, back up, etc.) then look at the size and type gun, select a bullet that can do what you want it to do, then select a round you can shoot well from that gun, in most cases you will do well.

tipoc

 

[Sheikyourbootie]

This has been a very instructive thread. I have but one question. This "Great Chinese Rebellion", did that occur before or after the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

 

[caz223]

I nominate this thread for employee of the month.

 

[FairWarning]

It's somewhat funny (at first ) seeing the .45 superfans here trying to imply that .357 is some kind of inferior round with its best days behind it, and that speed can never overcome lack of bullet weight (REALLY? How effective is a 130 gr .270 bullet?). I've shot plenty of both and own both, and the .357 ushers pure devastation.

Try shooting a deer with a .45. Better yet......DON'T. It's vastly inferior to .357 against critters, and the best .357s are as good as any handgun out there against bipeds, too. For that matter, try shooting anything at 50 yds with a .45. The only serious limitations for .357 Mag are the delivery systems, flash, and above all, the world-coming-to-and end CRACK every time you fire a fast one.

But as far as RESULTS on the target? Come on guys.....snap out of it....

 

[militant]

They will both do the job if you do yours. There is no replacement for shot placement.

 

[the357plan]

357 Mag vs. 45 ACP is the reason all my 1911s are 10 MM...

Would a 357 hollow point be similar to a 45 ACP (non HP)?

In no way is a 357 hollow point similar to a 45 ACP FMJ. And I have experience specific to this question.

Thirty-five years ago I removed feral animals (5-40 lbs) from my parents place. They just weren't tolerated in a small rural farm environment.

45 ACP Gold Cup 5" bbl.:
All shots were lethal, nothing DRT. I was lucky, in everything case, a major artery was hit and the animal just bled out.
1) 230 grn Hardball just slipped through flesh. You'd be surprised how close hardball gets to vitals without doing much damage to them.
2) 180 grn JHPs performed a little better. They were a truncated cone style jacketed hollow point that didn't mushroom at all. I guess ammo manufactures couldn't get a proper JHP to cycle reliably back then. However, those JHPs acted like a cookie cutter making a very nice clean cut 45 caliber hole through the animal.

357 Mag Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8" bbl.:
All shots were lethal, everything DRT. 125 JHPs caused major trauma to all tissue in the surrounding area. Small opossum sized animals were sometimes eviscerated (to include the chest cavity). I switched to the 357 for that task since I had to dispose of the animal and didn't like going into the bushes to get it.

For the OP: There was/is no comparison between the two (357 JHP vs 45 FMJ) when considering performance through flesh.

45 ACP JHPs perform a lot better now. And, I'll agree with anyone who says the 45 ACP is a better combat gun. However, the 357 Mag is better for hunting. And, SD (which is not combat) is such a gray area, many things work, so to each his own.

I really have nothing against 454 ACP. My 1911s are 10 MM because this allows me to run from the 45 ACP-ish to 40 S&W level through bottom end 41 Mag levels.

 

[DUB]

stopping power

"What has to be considered as more important is the relative percentage of one shot stops for a given cartridge in long term studies. When viewed in that manner, the 40, 357, and 45 are fairly close in performance with the 357 being the better of the three".

Why doesn't this mean that the 357 has greater stopping power than the 40
or 45?