How much does a good trigger matter to you?
- Thread starter irish52084
- Start date
Clifford L. Hughes
New member
Iriah52084:
If you were in a firefight at close range any decent trigger will do: you won't be trying to hit a three inch ten ring. Although accurate for their intended use, the modern double action auto loaders' triggers are a bit slouchy for pin point accuracy. However, everything else being equal, except the trigger, they are accurate also. a good way to develope good trigger release with your pistol or revolver is by dry firing. Dry firing develops proper grip, sight alignment and trigger control. These three are paramount to any handgun shooting. When shooting the sights must stay aligned when the trigger releases. Any miss alignment results it hits way off target. The best way to dry fire is to snap in against a white wall with no target because you will be developing grip, sight alignment and trigger release. To maintain sight alignment the eyes must be focused on the sights not the target.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
If you were in a firefight at close range any decent trigger will do: you won't be trying to hit a three inch ten ring. Although accurate for their intended use, the modern double action auto loaders' triggers are a bit slouchy for pin point accuracy. However, everything else being equal, except the trigger, they are accurate also. a good way to develope good trigger release with your pistol or revolver is by dry firing. Dry firing develops proper grip, sight alignment and trigger control. These three are paramount to any handgun shooting. When shooting the sights must stay aligned when the trigger releases. Any miss alignment results it hits way off target. The best way to dry fire is to snap in against a white wall with no target because you will be developing grip, sight alignment and trigger release. To maintain sight alignment the eyes must be focused on the sights not the target.
Semper Fi.
Gunnery sergeant
Clifford L. Hughes
USMC Retired
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I am a paper puncher type. I take my time and I am all upset if the bullet hole does not touch the other hole.
As that is very hard to do on a consistent basis I tend to be moody.
However, I have noticed a light, creep free trigger helps my hit probability.
So I have paid big bucks to get lighter creep free triggers.
And I will do it again.
As that is very hard to do on a consistent basis I tend to be moody.
However, I have noticed a light, creep free trigger helps my hit probability.
So I have paid big bucks to get lighter creep free triggers.
And I will do it again.
I understand your point about "adapting" to the trigger in a production gun ...where its ok ....not great ...but ok. Guns like Sig Sauer fall into that category for me. Not great triggers but acceptable ...at least to the point of what you can expect from any hinged trigger style gun.
But on guns that can be produced with a spectacular trigger - like a well made 1911 ...a bad trigger is a deal breaker to me ...and I have no tolerance for triggers with any more than just a touch of slack, or any creep or any hitch as they break on 1911's. I expect a well made 1911 trigger - on a range gun or a defensive or tactical gun ---to break like glass ( at whatever weight you spec - 3 lbs, 3 1/2 lbs bad, 4 lbs ..) and I'm willing to pay for it to be done right - and that's why my primary 1911's are made by Wilson Combat - because that's how they do things. I have other 1911's - Baer, Brown and Kimber ...and they're ok / but they're not comparable to my Wilson's - so I don't shoot them much / and will give them to one of the kids as they get their lives in order ...and they can pry the Wilson's out of my coffin someday ...
But on guns that can be produced with a spectacular trigger - like a well made 1911 ...a bad trigger is a deal breaker to me ...and I have no tolerance for triggers with any more than just a touch of slack, or any creep or any hitch as they break on 1911's. I expect a well made 1911 trigger - on a range gun or a defensive or tactical gun ---to break like glass ( at whatever weight you spec - 3 lbs, 3 1/2 lbs bad, 4 lbs ..) and I'm willing to pay for it to be done right - and that's why my primary 1911's are made by Wilson Combat - because that's how they do things. I have other 1911's - Baer, Brown and Kimber ...and they're ok / but they're not comparable to my Wilson's - so I don't shoot them much / and will give them to one of the kids as they get their lives in order ...and they can pry the Wilson's out of my coffin someday ...
Like others, what is "good" and what is acceptable varies by use and type of gun. I have a Ruger LCP .380 which has a long and heavy trigger pull on a gun which is very light. That combines to make acceptable accuracy beyond point blank range very difficult. I will probably keep the LCP but prefer to carry and shoot my Sig P238 and Kahr CM9 I have since acquired because the triggers are "better" and I can shoot the guns better.
Overall, no. But I think EVERYONE prefers an action that is smooth with a clean, crisp break and minimal over travel.
The Kahrs are very smooth, esp my dad's K9, but yes the pull is long. Noticeably longer than my revolvers. So much so that in rapid fire I was reseting the trigger on that K9 without firing a shot
.As for rapid fire accuracy with a DA revolver, assuming the trigger is decently clean/smooth, rapid accurate fire isn't difficult once you get past the temptation to jerk the trigger. Keep it running at a smooth, steady, even pace (squeeze and release, no stopping or staging) and you'd be surprised at how quick they can be. But that style isn't everyone's cup of tea.
A lot.
A VERY lot.
Well said!
I won’t argue that you can do well with a poor trigger. My Glock 26 and my Beretta Cougar are proof of that.
A good question to the person that started this interesting thread is, what really good triggers have you tried besides the one “tuned 1911 trigger” and who tuned it.
I have fired a lot of triggers that have been messed up by garage gun smiths.
I feel the better triggers depend on the original design. There is more to the trigger than weight and smoothness. Take a Python which I feel has the best double action ever made. There is a point in the pull of a Python that you can easily hold the trigger and once on target the remainder of the pull is much like a single action.
Old N frame Smiths with target triggers (wide serrated triggers) spread the load across your finger and a really good trigger job can feel like breaking glass. No creep, no mushiness just a slight movement and one more are down range.
Then the 1911. I have a gold cup that a very high quality gun smith went through 25 years ago. Let’s face it a gold cup built in the 70’s has a nice trigger. But this one is a step above.
I have handed the gun to people that have dry fired it and there mouth drops open in shock.
For a defense gun I don’t feel that the trigger is that important, it needs to function reliably, safely and able to hold good groups at 7 yards and that’s why I carry a Glock 26 with a factory trigger. Which is mushy and not very light. But it works.
But to answer your good question I will repeat Aguila Blanca,
A lot.
Good thread
A VERY lot.
Well said!
I won’t argue that you can do well with a poor trigger. My Glock 26 and my Beretta Cougar are proof of that.
A good question to the person that started this interesting thread is, what really good triggers have you tried besides the one “tuned 1911 trigger” and who tuned it.
I have fired a lot of triggers that have been messed up by garage gun smiths.
I feel the better triggers depend on the original design. There is more to the trigger than weight and smoothness. Take a Python which I feel has the best double action ever made. There is a point in the pull of a Python that you can easily hold the trigger and once on target the remainder of the pull is much like a single action.
Old N frame Smiths with target triggers (wide serrated triggers) spread the load across your finger and a really good trigger job can feel like breaking glass. No creep, no mushiness just a slight movement and one more are down range.
Then the 1911. I have a gold cup that a very high quality gun smith went through 25 years ago. Let’s face it a gold cup built in the 70’s has a nice trigger. But this one is a step above.
I have handed the gun to people that have dry fired it and there mouth drops open in shock.
For a defense gun I don’t feel that the trigger is that important, it needs to function reliably, safely and able to hold good groups at 7 yards and that’s why I carry a Glock 26 with a factory trigger. Which is mushy and not very light. But it works.
But to answer your good question I will repeat Aguila Blanca,
A lot.
Good thread
"Seaman, I have to disagree with you on the glock triggers being the best of the polymer guns. "
I believe I gave that designation to the Walther PPS.
"While trigger control is important, I'd say grip is actually more important"
This has not been my experience. Choosing a CCW gun I had it down to the Walther P99 and SA XDm, and chose the P99 chiefly because of grip comfort, pointability, etc. What a mistake. Despite the heavenly feel of the P99, my Tokarev (too small bar-of-soap grip), my PPK (can only get 3 and half fingers on the grip), or my Sig P239 (top heavy brick, akward doesn't-feel-right grip) all shot 3/4" groups for me....the P99, well, I had way more fliers than bullseyes.
Nowadays, I just shoot a gun and if in the first mag or cylinder it gives me a tight group I keep it, and I have noticed one thing about the keepers - they all have excellent triggers.
"...I think EVERYONE prefers an action [trigger] that is smooth with a clean, crisp break and minimal over travel."
Sounds like a good universal definition to me.
"The Kahrs are very smooth..."
Yes they are and of the new crop of l-o-n-g pull DAO handguns they are the best, but still to slow for me, the first pull on the Sig P239 is heavy, long and smooth, but but thankfully it is followed by subsequent quick SA pulls.
"As for rapid fire accuracy with a DA revolver, assuming the trigger is decently clean/smooth, rapid accurate fire isn't difficult..."
I stage my DA shots, but am still less accurate in DA (and can only admire good DA shooters), have carried S&W Js, Ks and Ns, but all have been DA/SA, at CCW distances my DA shooting is acceptable, still prefer an SA trigger option.
I believe I gave that designation to the Walther PPS.
"While trigger control is important, I'd say grip is actually more important"
This has not been my experience. Choosing a CCW gun I had it down to the Walther P99 and SA XDm, and chose the P99 chiefly because of grip comfort, pointability, etc. What a mistake. Despite the heavenly feel of the P99, my Tokarev (too small bar-of-soap grip), my PPK (can only get 3 and half fingers on the grip), or my Sig P239 (top heavy brick, akward doesn't-feel-right grip) all shot 3/4" groups for me....the P99, well, I had way more fliers than bullseyes.
Nowadays, I just shoot a gun and if in the first mag or cylinder it gives me a tight group I keep it, and I have noticed one thing about the keepers - they all have excellent triggers.
"...I think EVERYONE prefers an action [trigger] that is smooth with a clean, crisp break and minimal over travel."
Sounds like a good universal definition to me.
"The Kahrs are very smooth..."
Yes they are and of the new crop of l-o-n-g pull DAO handguns they are the best, but still to slow for me, the first pull on the Sig P239 is heavy, long and smooth, but but thankfully it is followed by subsequent quick SA pulls.
"As for rapid fire accuracy with a DA revolver, assuming the trigger is decently clean/smooth, rapid accurate fire isn't difficult..."
I stage my DA shots, but am still less accurate in DA (and can only admire good DA shooters), have carried S&W Js, Ks and Ns, but all have been DA/SA, at CCW distances my DA shooting is acceptable, still prefer an SA trigger option.
Good crisp Trigger brings the groups down
It's good to have a crisp breaking trigger pull- I would say more so on rifles and target pistols. This is probably something I'll invest in for my ruger pistol.
I don't really see much benefit in my glock 27 or in taurus 9mm, though those pistols are subcompact platforms and I don't really expect inch ratings on the groups,..-basically if I can get all the rounds in a 6 inch paper plate at 12 yards, I'm satisfied-given the site radius.
However I've achieved maybe shy of 2.5 inches with my best 10 shot grouping at 50 yards with my ruger 22/45 .22lr pistol, a 2.5 x 30 scope, and rested....-that i think I can bring down a bit, so I'm thinkin of a trigger upgrade.
Any suggestions for the mklll 22/45 series?
It's good to have a crisp breaking trigger pull- I would say more so on rifles and target pistols. This is probably something I'll invest in for my ruger pistol.
I don't really see much benefit in my glock 27 or in taurus 9mm, though those pistols are subcompact platforms and I don't really expect inch ratings on the groups,..-basically if I can get all the rounds in a 6 inch paper plate at 12 yards, I'm satisfied-given the site radius.
However I've achieved maybe shy of 2.5 inches with my best 10 shot grouping at 50 yards with my ruger 22/45 .22lr pistol, a 2.5 x 30 scope, and rested....-that i think I can bring down a bit, so I'm thinkin of a trigger upgrade.
Any suggestions for the mklll 22/45 series?
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Most, but not all, of my guns have had some sort of trigger work done.
The exceptions are the Ruger M77s and the Remington 700BDL.
My Smith and Wesson revolvers have not been touched but the two Rugers have been worked on.
The Sigs have not been touched but the CZs have both been modified.
The Glocks have all had the 3.5 lb trigger installed.
The XDM should be worked on but is still stock today.
The Smith and Wesson autos are stock as well as the Walther.
The Buckmark is stock.
Geetarman
The exceptions are the Ruger M77s and the Remington 700BDL.
My Smith and Wesson revolvers have not been touched but the two Rugers have been worked on.
The Sigs have not been touched but the CZs have both been modified.
The Glocks have all had the 3.5 lb trigger installed.
The XDM should be worked on but is still stock today.
The Smith and Wesson autos are stock as well as the Walther.
The Buckmark is stock.
Geetarman
It's kind of frustrating when you are trying to hold the front sight just even with the top of the rear sights, and just perfectly evenly spaced in the notch, and have the sights on target, and then everything gets all discombobulated because the force required to pull the trigger makes your hands get all wobbly. The longer the trigger pull - the longer the wobbly discombobulation lasts. 
What's really nice is when you are able to line up the sights and the target stays perfectly perched atop your perfect sight picture and the trigger is so smooth that you are not even cognizant of it as it glides to the rear and SURPRISE ! You put a hole right where you wanted !!!
So... I'll take pleasant surprises over frustrating dicombobulations any day.
What's really nice is when you are able to line up the sights and the target stays perfectly perched atop your perfect sight picture and the trigger is so smooth that you are not even cognizant of it as it glides to the rear and SURPRISE ! You put a hole right where you wanted !!!
So... I'll take pleasant surprises over frustrating dicombobulations any day.
" Why would I not seem to notice a difference in triggers? Do I just have good trigger control? I'm not any sort of special pistol shooter or even a competitor."
I'm sorta the same way... I'm betting that general hand & finger strength has a lot to do with this. I was a construction carpenter for many years back in the days of ordinary hammers (as opposed to modern nail guns) so my (already large) right shooting hand is still VERY strong, relatively speaking. I've noticed that trigger function isn't as big of a factor for me as it is for most others. I'm thinking that hand/finger muscle development is a big part of the reason why.
I'm sorta the same way... I'm betting that general hand & finger strength has a lot to do with this. I was a construction carpenter for many years back in the days of ordinary hammers (as opposed to modern nail guns) so my (already large) right shooting hand is still VERY strong, relatively speaking. I've noticed that trigger function isn't as big of a factor for me as it is for most others. I'm thinking that hand/finger muscle development is a big part of the reason why.
irish52084
New member
Seaman, I must have misread your earlier post then on the glock and walther. My mistake.
In post #50, it's funny how we differ on which we find more important, trigger or grip, yet your assessment of the ppk and the p239 are exactly the same as I feel. I find the 229's and 239's to have a very odd grip style that feel awkward in my hands, yet the 226 doesn't bother me. Goes to show that trigger feel and feel of the gun are all so subjective.
Ozzieman' I've had 3 nice 1911's with triggers in the 3-4# range and 1 of them was tuned locally because the trigger was slightly worse than the other 2. It was actually kept at 4# with a little bit of travel as it was my primary carry gun. It was also the best shooter of the 3, despite it's trigger and 4" barrel. I also had a kimber raptor and a grand raptor with very nice triggers, both in the 3# range and very crisp. I've sold or traded them all at this point, but they were good trouble free guns. These were all nice guns with good triggers, but none of them are like my rifle triggers. My favorite rifle has a really fantastic trigger that would be very tough to replicate in a non competition handgun.
I'm in no way trying to say that a nice trigger isn't a good thing. I'm just asking for others opinions about how much a trigger matters to them. I'm very surprised by the number of responses and how cordial the tone of this thread has been. Keep it up, I love to hear others opinions.
In post #50, it's funny how we differ on which we find more important, trigger or grip, yet your assessment of the ppk and the p239 are exactly the same as I feel. I find the 229's and 239's to have a very odd grip style that feel awkward in my hands, yet the 226 doesn't bother me. Goes to show that trigger feel and feel of the gun are all so subjective.
Ozzieman' I've had 3 nice 1911's with triggers in the 3-4# range and 1 of them was tuned locally because the trigger was slightly worse than the other 2. It was actually kept at 4# with a little bit of travel as it was my primary carry gun. It was also the best shooter of the 3, despite it's trigger and 4" barrel. I also had a kimber raptor and a grand raptor with very nice triggers, both in the 3# range and very crisp. I've sold or traded them all at this point, but they were good trouble free guns. These were all nice guns with good triggers, but none of them are like my rifle triggers. My favorite rifle has a really fantastic trigger that would be very tough to replicate in a non competition handgun.
I'm in no way trying to say that a nice trigger isn't a good thing. I'm just asking for others opinions about how much a trigger matters to them. I'm very surprised by the number of responses and how cordial the tone of this thread has been. Keep it up, I love to hear others opinions.
irish52084
New member
CWKahrFan, You make a logically point about hand and finger strength. I've noticed, that generally, the more physically fit I am the better I shoot. I'm also a larger and taller than average guy, which probably makes it a little easier for me to grip more surface area of a pistol. The more surface area I control, the easier it is to hold the gun in place and negate less than perfect trigger control.
Almost all my S&W revolvers benefitted from a trigger job performed by yours truly, Lou Williamson did one on my PPC open gun when he built it. I've had great luck with drop-in parts on a couple of 1911's and have installed Timney triggers in a Ruger M77 and a Weatherby(Howa). I also put kits in a Rem 597and a 10-22. One of my first gunsmithing ventures was a trigger stop in an old Ruger MKI nearly 30 years ago, learned how to do it by reading an article in Guns & Ammo.
I'm no gunsmith but a good mechanical aptitude and patience have served me well. I've had a few rifles recently that came out of the box with good triggers but almost every handgun and more than a few rifles have needed work to meet my standards.
I'm no gunsmith but a good mechanical aptitude and patience have served me well. I've had a few rifles recently that came out of the box with good triggers but almost every handgun and more than a few rifles have needed work to meet my standards.
Regardless the trigger, you just focus and hold your sight picture as you squeeze/stroke the trigger. Its more about the sights than it is the trigger, and you shouldn't even be thinking about the trigger.
Ive usually found its the people who only shoot light, target type triggers who have troubles with other types, where people who shoot DA type triggers, tend to not have a problem or notice. If they do notice, its usually because the trigger is to light, and the gun doubles or goes off unexpectedly until they settle in with it. I have that trouble when I first pick up my buddys Nighthawks. They have very nice triggers, but are WAY to light for a carry gun. My Colts are all stock, and have 5-6 pound pulls, which I prefer, and I dont have the issue with them.
One thing I have noticed between the two types, or at least for me, I shoot tighter "groups" when I shoot DA guns DAO, than I do when I shoot them SAO. When you focus on the sights without thought to the trigger (especially with heavy recoiling guns), the groups shrink pretty dramatically.