How Many Spare Mags?

[Deet]

I hate the fact that so far everyone seems to be ganging up on creature. He has a valid point, the rest of you are attacking him needlessly. I will offer some facts to help support creatures argument. (he doesn't need my help, nor did he ask for it) It is seven times more likely that you will get hit by lightning in your lifetime than winning the state lottery, yet I still see people winning the lottery all the time. See figures don't lie, but liars can figure. Data won't save me when I reach for my spare magazine and I realize I took all your sound advice and left it at home. If you don't want to carry a spare magazine fine, just don't call the rest of use paranoid because we like to be prepared. Please don't cut and paste parts of my post, these are purely my opinion, and a little support for a fellow member who makes sense to me.
+1 for creature.

 

[Creature]

Call me I'll get ya one.

If its not for free, its not worth the effort.

There ya go....so the logic is the same as wearing a lightning rod on your head.

I expend more effort rolling out of bed in the morning than putting on the mag holder. Should I not get up in the morning either?

 

[dabigguns357]

Say we all live in florida and all of a sudden the national weather service came on the tv and said that a hurricane was nearing the florida coast and there was a 20% chance that it will hit your town/city.Would you start sealing things up and making plans or would you just sit back with a beer and sandwhich.Me,i'de start planning and be prepared,others wouldn't.

It's a personal choice that we all have to make.I don't know who said it but i like it,"it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".

As i have said before i keep extra with me when i'm on the go.When i carry in the summer i carry a snubbie .357 and an extra speed loader in my pocket.

 

[Nnobby45]

I wasn't and haven't been discussing any type of tactical philosophy, I've been discussing actual necessity and likelihood of events. Very different animals there.

Anyone so silver tongued as to even attempt to seperate real events from the tactics created to deal with them, in order to win an argu...er, debate, is a man to be admired. That in itself is a bold tactical philosophy.

David, you need neither a gun nor a reload. You could talk 'em out of it. You'll never lose a debate or a gunfight.

Quote:
I agree with what Buzz said about carrying what you want, but from the looks of this thread, it isn't the no-extra-mag folks who are disparaging the others...

How could it be. Why would you disparage those who make sure they have the capacity to better deal with come what may. Whether it's to merely recharge their pistol or keep fighting.

Reginald Denny didn't go to work one day figuring to be dragged out of his truck and brain damaged to the point of (much later when he could speak again) say he had nothing against the folks that did it to him. I guess what counts is that the odds were in his favor that day.

Don't confuse disparaging someone personally with criticizing their tactical philosophy. All philosophies are a target to criticism because all are in opposition to someone elses.

 

[Wildalaska]

I expend more effort rolling out of bed in the morning than putting on the mag holder.

You could say the same about a head mounted lightning rod

WildandbotharestillawasteoftimeAlaska TM

 

[Wildalaska]

would you just sit back with a beer and sandwhich

Depends...if it was PB&J with a Bud I'd start duct tapin!

But perhaps if I was offered a rare roastbeef, russian dressing, jalapeno pepper jack cheese on dark rye with a schmeer of chopped liver pate and a kosher dill, together with a belgian lager I'd be cloud watching

WildjustlikeitakeasparemagwhenthereareaspateofgangshootingsonceayearAlaska TM

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

You, on the other hand, have been citing historical facts and statistical data non-stop...without actually providing any. So let's see them. As they say in the facts business: put up or shut up.

Actually, I outlined the data in my last post. I guess you're saying you don't believe that data, so I'll do two things:

First, where is the data that provides the reasoning for your not believing what has already been provided? If you say you have none, that's fine, but it establishes the point that I have been trying to make. Namely, my opinion is based on data, yours is not. You can choose to not BELIEVE that data or say that you frankly don't care what the data says but it doesn't make it NOT data or wrong data because someone chooses not to believe it.

Second, I'll provide you with some more data from a neighboring thread (Armed Citizen Analysis):

There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis....Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2....Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion... When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender's initial response was to fire until empty.


Let me point out the significance of this data:
482 incidents, an average of 2 shots were fired and when it was more than 2, the defender appeared to be simply emptying their gun and STILL only 2 (discounting the lion incident) needed reloads. That tells us that the VAST majority of incidents MUST have, by the rules of statistics, included no more than 2 shots fired. Also meaning that by those same rules, a large number of incidents must have been 1 shot fired or the average would be considerably higher than 2. It also seems likely to me that the two incidents needing reloads would correspond to the "firing until empty.", meaning that, in actuality, NO reloads were needed had the defender not decided to fire until empty. I admit that is conjecture but it seems logically consistent with the data.

How much more data must be provided?

Bottom line: Carry your extra mag, really, I don't care but carrying that extra mag is a decision based on want, not need. All the data shows that fact over and over.

 

[David Armstrong]

Anyone so silver tongued as to even attempt to seperate real events from the tactics created to deal with them, in order to win an argu...er, debate, is a man to be admired. That in itself is a bold tactical philosophy.

Again, philosophy is cool. However, philosophy is not always reality. It is just a simple concept---what are we talking about, reloads or ammo? You keep dodging that question--Who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or is it the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders? No reload, one reload, or two reloads? And can somebody provide any instance where the reality reflected the philosophy? To me it is much like the dreaded "tactical reload." Sounds great as a tactical philosophy, but in reality it turns out not to matter.

David, you need neither a gun nor a reload. You could talk 'em out of it. You'll never lose a debate or a gunfight.

Never say never, but so far you are half right. I've lost debates. I've never lost a gunfight.

Reginald Denny didn't go to work one day figuring to be dragged out of his truck and brain damaged to the point of (much later when he could speak again) say he had nothing against the folks that did it to him. I guess what counts is that the odds were in his favor that day.

No, the odds were not in his favor that day. He did not have all the information he needed to make an informed decision. If he had the information he might have decided to drive another route. That is the point, IMO. Use the best information to determine what you are going to do. If one wants to do a cost versus benefit, it helps to know what the cost actually is and what the benefit actually is.

 

[mavracer]

I admit that is conjecture but it seems logically consistent with the data.

not really it seams quite bias to me.
if three incidents required reloads. it's logical that shots were fired after the reload.If they shot to slide lock and threat was gone it wouldn't require a reload.

I don't care but carrying that extra mag is a decision based on want, not need.

first it would seam you do care otherwise you would quit telling me what I need to do.
second 3 out of 482 that required a reload might disagree.

 

[David Armstrong]

if three incidents required reloads. it's logical that shots were fired after the reload

But that ignores WHY the reloads were needed. I've got cases where people reloaded, but they were not in a normal SD mode any more. They shot at somebody and then chased them down the street, for example. Again, nobody is saying don't do it, some are saying don't try to tell us how important it is to do it.

 

[mavracer]

But that ignores WHY the reloads were needed.

because the gun was empty.now go ahead and try to tell me how many people are doing tactical reloads.

Again, nobody is saying don't do it, some are saying don't try to tell us how important it is to do it.

Again 3 out of 482 poeple might disagree how important an extra magazine is when a reload is required

 

[David Armstrong]

because the gun was empty.

And as noted, at least one of those incidents the gun was empty because the shooter was trying to go after an escaped lion. Thus the "why" can be an important factor if one is trying to figure out if it was needed for SD or if it was done for some other purpose.

Again 3 out of 482 poeple might disagree how important an extra magazine is when a reload is required

Or they might not. Hard to tell with the info provided. Of course, you are also assuming they were using an autoloader, and/or that the weapon was fully loaded at the time of the incident, and all sorts of other things. Whether those are reasonable assumptions or not is something we could discuss, but we should not ignore them. If Joe Cool grabs his empty revolver from the drawer, loads one round into it and fires, scaring the badguys away, then reloads and goes out on his porch and shoots at their car 3 times as they drive away it is quite a reach to say that indicates that carrying an extra magazine with you is very important.

 

[BuckHammer]

Who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or is it the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders?

You have narrowed the options to create a bias for your point. What about the guy with the glock 17 with the 17 round magazine and two spares? Sorry, I didn't hear anything about him. I wonder why. Anyway, the guy with the glock and two spares is the most prepared out of those, assuming those are the only variables. So please stop posting that same scenario, we got it the first time, and I assure you that I am not the only one who is tired of reading it.

It's like a condom, I'd rather have one and not need one, then need one and not have one. I don't see how that opinion ignores facts.

1. If you don't carry spares, congratulations, there is better than a 99% chance that you will NOT die in a DGU scenario.

2. If you carry spares, congratulations, there is a better than 99% chance that you will NOT die in a DGU scenario. Furthermore, your extra mags will almost certainly have made no difference in a potential DGU scenario.

Basically, if carrying extra magazines is easy for you, and/or you want to do it, by all means do it. Even though your chances of survival in general have BARELY improved, they have improved nonetheless. If carrying magazines is trouble for you, or you just don't want to, that's FINE, your survivability increase of carrying an extra mag would have been negligible anyway.

Neither side is right, neither side is wrong. So please, stop arguing about it, unless you are just arguing for fun, in which case, go ahead.

 

[mavracer]

Of course, you are also assuming they were using an autoloader,

no I figured you were smart enough to substitute speed loader or even loose rounds in the case it was a revolver.

If Joe Cool grabs his empty revolver from the drawer, loads one round into it and fires, scaring the badguys away, then reloads and goes out on his porch and shoots at their car 3 times as they drive away it is quite a reach to say that indicates that carrying an extra magazine with you is very important.

I'm sure thats exactly what happened, what a way to loose credibility grasping at straws.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

first it would seam you do care otherwise you would quit telling me what I need to do.

Actually, here's what I've told you and others to do:

...and I've said, more than once, that any one who feels it is necessary should go ahead and do it.

If you want to draw the line at an extra mag, go ahead. If your line is an extra mag and a bug, fine.

Bottom line: Carry your extra mag, really, I don't care...

It's really simple. Carry your spare mags. Really, I don't care

Why do you confuse my expressing my rationale with telling you what to do? I don't think you're telling me what to do by saying that you think carrying a spare is a good idea. I don't understand why this is being taken so personally.

Data is provided. We're asked "Where is the data?"

I (and others) provide the data again.... Answer: We don't care about your data.

I (and others) ask "Where is your data?" What's the reply? We don't need no data, it's opinion!

I (and others) say "Go ahead and carry if you want." We're accused of telling people what to do and potentially putting them in danger... "How would you feel..."

I don't think we even need to discuss how many times we went over the "Odds vs. Stakes" debate.

Shall we go around the circle again or are we done here?

 

[mavracer]

Why do you confuse my expressing my rationale with telling you what to do?

I don't care but carrying that extra mag is a decision based on want, not need.

IE you don't NEED to carry an extra reload.

I (and others) say "Go ahead and carry if you want." We're accused of telling people what to do and potentially putting them in danger... "How would you feel..."

then answer this one simple question.
How many times will somebody survive the DGU that REQUIRED a reload without one?

 

[David Armstrong]

You have narrowed the options to create a bias for your point.

No. I've pointed out a flaw in the reasoning that is being tossed around here. Hard to claim there is a bias when my point is that it doesn't matter either way. The problem becomes one of figuring out what some are talking about, reloads or ammunition.

So please stop posting that same scenario, we got it the first time, and I assure you that I am not the only one who is tired of reading it.

Then don't read it. I tend to post items like that because they serve a purpose. And I think you have helped that purpose by being unable or unwilling to answer the question posed.

 

[David Armstrong]

no I figured you were smart enough to substitute speed loader or even loose rounds in the case it was a revolver.

Oh, OK, I see. What you said was not what you meant. Nice to know that.

I'm sure thats exactly what happened, what a way to loose credibility grasping at straws.

You might note nobody said that's exactly what happened, or even that it was close to what happened.

How many times will somebody survive the DGU that REQUIRED a reload without one?

How many times will somebody survive a tiger attack in their living room that required a high-power rifle without one? How many times will somebody survive a meteor falling on them that required a meteor shield without one?

 

[mskdgunman]

For CCW, I carry one extra mag. Truthfully, I carry that more in case of a malfunction which would require me to strip the old mag and replace it with a fresh one then any anticipation that I'll need 10 or 15 extra rounds. Malfunctions happen at bad times (Murphy is a B#*ch). If, while in the capacity as an armed citizen, I run into a situation where I need more then two mags, they probably won't help me much anyway as it's apparently a REALLY bad day.

As a LEO, thats a different story. Basic load for me is one in the weapon (Glock 21) and three spares. My SHTF rig ads three more plus long gun ammo

 

[mavracer]

How many times will somebody survive a tiger attack in their living room that required a high-power rifle without one? How many times will somebody survive a meteor falling on them that required a meteor shield without one?

I'm gonna go with NONE.
Having extra ammo=never a bad thing
not enough ammo=dead
I'd recomend carrying one more round than you need.
so if you'll tell me exactly what that number is I'd love to know.
Heck since you and peet know exactly how my next gunfight will go down,tell me when and where and I'll stay away.

Thanks in advance.