How Many Spare Mags?

[David Armstrong]

Well, it would enter your thoughts if the chance of an earthquake were has high as needing a gun. You carry a gun don't you?

But it is not as high as needing a gun. Again, needing a gun is not an improbable event over a lifetime. But the improbability goes up rapidly after that. Even if you use big numbers, like a 10% factor, it gets pretty rare pretty fast. 10% chance you will need a gun, 10% chance you will need to shoot the BG, 10% chance you will need to use multiple rounds, and 10% you will then actually need the spare ammo for something. We're at one-ten thousandths already. That is what same don't seem to see, how quickly a percentage of a percentage of a percentage creates astronomical odds. One can prepare for astronomical odds if they wish, it is not that big a deal, but to try to suggest it is very important is pretty questionable.

In the event an event happens when we aren't at home (or even in our vehicle), it could be instrumental to our survival that we have extra ammo on our persons, also.

Could be. First we have to have an event like that, then we have to have another event that requires shooting the gun, then we need another event to require needing to have the gun reloaded. And that is fine if that worries you.

The wisdom in having extra ammo isn't limited to needing a reload in one gunfight. Some people we've heard from on this thread don't carry enough ammo to reload their pistol afterwards.

Again, what is the likelihood of that mattering? Equally important, is the issue having a reload or having enough ammo? In other words, who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders?

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

the problem is this is your opinion, your trying to prove it's a fact.
NOT GONNA HAPPEN

The decision to carry a reload is also opinion and I've said, more than once, that any one who feels it is necessary should go ahead and do it.

Now, having said that, all opinions are not created equal. My opinion is not fact but it most certainly is based on historical fact and statistical data. The opinion to carry a reload is based either on just plain wanting to or intentionally ignoring the facts and believing it is justifiable statistically. If you just plain want to, fine go ahead. If you want to ignore the facts or pretend they're not real or believe that you might be that 1 in 80 billion, then that's fine to, go ahead and carry that reload. As for convincing me:

NOT GONNA HAPPEN

 

[au1776]

No spare. I'm more prepared than most by carrying a pistol and being proficient with it. I'm less prepared than people who carry an extra mag. I'm much less prepared than people who carry an extra mag, a backup, an HK416, 4 flashlights and 60m of rope.

You have to draw the line somewhere.

I agree with what Buzz said about carrying what you want, but from the looks of this thread, it isn't the no-extra-mag folks who are disparaging the others...

 

[csmsss]

I carry with four magazines. One reason is that the weight of the magazines helps offset the weight of the pistol. The other reason is....why not? I don't understand the necessity of all of this statistical analysis to rationalize how many (if any) spare magazines one should carry. Bottom line is that if I'm in a situation where I need to draw and fire my carry pistol, I want as many rounds on tap as I can comfortably carry around with me. For me, that is four mags.

 

[mavracer]

The decision to carry a reload is also opinion and I've said, more than once, that any one who feels it is necessary should go ahead and do it.

yes, you stated your opinion in post 15.since then you have made 15 post trying to prove your right.
the one thing you can't change is the fact that the possibility exists sombody may need a reload or a BUG.If you have it and don't need it no big deal but, if you need it and don't have it your screwed.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your life but how will you feel if you get sombody killed because they listen to your opinion.

 

[Nnobby45]

Again, what is the likelihood of that mattering?

Same likelyhood as for the people for whom it has already mattered, and for those it will in the future..

You know, David, I really wonder if you're telling us with a straight face, that after a SD shooting, not being able to reload your pistol is an acceptable tactical philosophy just because it's unlikely you'll need to.

With that kind of odds making, one would load their revolver with 3 rds. and figure to have 1.5 rds. more than they need.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

since then you have made 15 post trying to prove your right.

Um, and a fair number of others have done the same trying to prove I'm wrong, including yourself. Isn't that what a discussion is? That's why this thread is 6 pages long, yes? I'm not talking to myself. Geesh.

how will you feel if you get sombody killed because they listen to your opinion.

Ok, can you (anyone) provide an example of a civilian killed in a SD situation specifically because they didn't have a reload?

 

[Whirlwind06]

retracted

 

[David Armstrong]

Same likelyhood as for the people for whom it has already mattered, and for those it will in the future.

OK, I'm always open to some facts. If you have any indicating the need for a reload making a difference in the outcome of a non-LE or military SD CCW encounter I'm open to looking at them. Again, you have not answered the question of if the issue is one of having a reload or having plenty of ammo. Who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or is it the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders?

You know, David, I really wonder if you're telling us with a straight face, that after a SD shooting, not being able to reload your pistol is an acceptable tactical philosophy just because it's unlikely you'll need to.

I wasn't and haven't been discussing any type of tactical philosophy, I've been discussing actual necessity and likelihood of events. Very different animals there. Perhaps you could share with us an actual example of a non-LE or military SD shooting where, after the shooting was done, you then needed to have your gun reloaded to engage another BG? I've researched over 10,000 shootings to one degree or another and I have never run across a single incident like that.

With that kind of odds making, one would load their revolver with 3 rds. and figure to have 1.5 rds. more than they need.

If I load anything other than a single-shot I figure it will have more rounds than I will need. But the cost of having those rounds available is minimal so it is not a big deal, just as having a reload isn't a big deal.

I agree with what Buzz said about carrying what you want, but from the looks of this thread, it isn't the no-extra-mag folks who are disparaging the others...

Yep, pretty obvious, isn't it.

 

[protectedbyglock]

I have not had to fire in defense (thank god). Unless you count that ****** off groundhog that one time....
Oh, and that deer I snuck up on. That wasn't too funny. I didn't know deer would run at you like that! I didn't even have a gun on me...just snuck up on her from behind a building and jumped out and yelled "Boo!" Bet she got a good laugh out of that one.
Oh, back on subject.....
I like to carry 7 reloads. Two in a double mag pouch. One on each calf, one in each back pocket (those ones hurt sometimes), and one taped just under my private parts where no bad guy will ever find it.
Grand total of 105 rounds of .45ACP with one in the hole. Without one chambered, though, that's only 104 rounds. Too light for me. Just don't feel comfortable...

 

[Creature]

Peetzakiller wrote:

My opinion is not fact but it most certainly is based on .

I am still waiting to hear your historical fact and statistical data. And not just those made up numbers you keep trying to advance as fact. And what about your so called expert...where is this person? At least share what this person has shared with you...I am sure he/she wont mind.

 

[Brian Pfleuger]

I am still waiting to hear your historical fact and statistical data.

I am awaiting the data supporting your opinion. The data supporting my opinion was, largely, supplied by Mr. Armstrong a couple of pages ago. No one questioned those numbers at the time. So far, the only reason any one has given for carrying a reload is essentially "I think I might need it." Where is the data to support that assertion? The closest any reload proponent has come to data is using the data provided by Mr. Armstrong to basically say "See, there's a chance, so I carry."

Here's some evidence from above (page 6):

Perhaps you could share with us an actual example of a non-LE or military SD shooting where, after the shooting was done, you then needed to have your gun reloaded to engage another BG? I've researched over 10,000 shootings to one degree or another and I have never run across a single incident like that.

Here's some more (page 4):

Using Kleck, for example, the lifetime probability is about 1 in 200. Then it starts getting into wilder numbers. Actually needing to shoot the gun is about 2% of 1 in 200. That not working and the BG presses on his attack and you need to shoot him goes to about a 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200. Multiple shots being needed tosses it down to maybe 3% of the 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200. Needing to reload then is about 2% of the 3% of the 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200.

and my analysis of those numbers from page 4:

That means a reload is necessary in 36 out of every 10,000,000,000 cases.

I believe I saw an estimate that there are 700,000 instances of firearms used in SD annually (fired or not). If both those numbers are correct, it would be an average of 396 years before ANY of those 700,000 individuals would need a reload in a SD situation. In other words, the odds that YOU will need a reload in your own personal case are 700,000 times less likely than 1:396 years.

I'll ask again. Can ANYONE provide an example of a civilian in a SD situation that was killed because they did not have a reload? The odds supporting my position have been provided. If you question those odds, why? Please provide the correct numbers if you do not believe those are correct.

 

[Hondo11]

I carry two spare 8rd mags MOST of the time. Why? To be honest, it's not because I think I'll need them. I probably won't need ANY from the gun itself, much less all 9 and then some.

I carry them because, MOST of the time, it's just as easy to carry them as it is to NOT carry them. Whatever I'm wearing that will conceal a pistol will conceal 2 magazines. They aren't heavy, they aren't in the way of anything, they go on the same belt as my pistol, etc. There isn't anything extra I have to do to carry them, so why NOT?

Now, if I had to do anything extra to carry them, then and ONLY then, would I go to the next level and ask if I NEEDED to. Unless that's the case, then I just do. Because, absent anything negative from carrying them, why NOT?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

my private parts where no bad guy will ever find it.

Depends if the BG is glad to see you and what he has in mind. Ever see Deliverance?



I think we are going in circles. Most DGUs are very low fire intensity situations. One can conceive of being in an intensive situation as in a terrorist or rampage. But they are rare. Despite all the uproar about Virginia Tech - there have been only about 14 college shootings.

Non-leo interventions in rampages have usually been low fire situations.

1. Tyler courthouse - civilian screwed up
2. Tacoma mall - civilian screwed up
3. Colorado church - ex-cop but civilian saved the day - BG suicided.
4. UT Austin Tower - then you get lots of civilian rounds but they were long arms.

I know lots of professionals who feel ok with the J frame for most situations in real life. As I said before, a gun and a reload is reasonable and doable without discomfort.

I do admit that sometimes I will Bat Belt up but that's like dressing-up.

 

[Wagonman]

Hondo that was a very reasoned and logical post.--------------Knock it off

 

[Creature]

I am awaiting the data supporting your opinion.

Oh for Pete's sake...what part of "opinion" requires supporting data? It's an opinion!

You, on the other hand, have been citing historical facts and statistical data non-stop...without actually providing any. So let's see them. As they say in the facts business: put up or shut up.

 

[Wildalaska]

I carry them because, MOST of the time, it's just as easy to carry them as it is to NOT carry them.

No its not. You have made a consious decision to carry spare mags, despite the extra work and unecessariness (hey is that a word). You can't justify it by saying it's "just as easy". You have extra stuff on your belt or in your pocket or whatever. Extra stuff ya got to put on and take off. Extra stuff ya got to worry about dropping, showing, cleaning, snagging on seatbelt or whatever.

Easy: Put on pants. Seecamp in pocket holster back pocket, wallet and money in pocket. Go
Not so easy: Begin to put on belt. Run through holster loops, adjust. run through mag pouch loops, adjust. Put gun in, adjust. Put mags in, adjust. Put on cover garment, adjust. Go. Modify for carry method of your choice.

Me...lifes too short to be adjusting guns, draggin my pants down etc. I'm a grab my pants and go guy. I'll save the firepower for times my hinkymeter picks up penumbras and emanations in the fabric of space/time

WildialreadyhavemycoffeewhileyouarestillgettingdressedAlaska TM

 

[Creature]

What about those of us that dont own a seecamp which slips oh so easily into the back pocket?

Of course its an effort...but it is an extra 4 or 5 seconds worth of extra effort. I still have to holster my weapon and then slip it onto the waistband of the pants that I happen to be wearing that day. So I disagree with the premise that it is far too much effort to carry an extra mag...simply because the effort required to slip my magazine holster with it belt clip onto my waistband is virtually nil.

 

[Wildalaska]

What about those of us that dont own a seecamp which slips oh so easily into the back pocket?

Get a kelTec. An NAA mini. Call me I'll get ya one.

Of course its an effort

There ya go....so the logic is the same as wearing a lightning rod on your head.

WildyourtimeyoureffortyourchoiceAlaska TM

 

[Hondo11]

From WildAlaska:

No its not. You have made a consious decision to carry spare mags, despite the extra work and unecessariness (hey is that a word). You can't justify it by saying it's "just as easy". You have extra stuff on your belt or in your pocket or whatever. Extra stuff ya got to put on and take off. Extra stuff ya got to worry about dropping, showing, cleaning, snagging on seatbelt or whatever.
Easy: Put on pants. Seecamp in pocket holster back pocket, wallet and money in pocket. Go
Not so easy: Begin to put on belt. Run through holster loops, adjust. run through mag pouch loops, adjust. Put gun in, adjust. Put mags in, adjust. Put on cover garment, adjust. Go. Modify for carry method of your choice.

Me...lifes too short to be adjusting guns, draggin my pants down etc. I'm a grab my pants and go guy. I'll save the firepower for times my hinkymeter picks up penumbras and emanations in the fabric of space/time

WildialreadyhavemycoffeewhileyouarestillgettingdressedAlaska TM

Nothing in my post said anything about YOU. It didn't say what YOU should do, but rather what I personally do and the reason why. I decide what is "extra work and unnecessariness" for ME. You decide that for YOU.

When I am in track pants or something, the 642 goes in my pocket. Rigging up a 1911 and spare mags in that case WOULD be extra effort. When I am putting on my jeans, belt, and belt holster, throwing on a mag carrier is not extra effort. Maybe 2 seconds worth...round that down to ZERO.

I'm not arguing FOR carrying extra mags. I'm making an argument why you can't argue against carrying it. I could also make an argument why you can't argue FOR carrying. Because it's personal choice. You do what you want. I'll do what I want.

These threads get stupid real quick...right about the time it goes from "This is what I do and why...why do you do what you do and why?" to "This is what I do and you should do it to because it's the only way and you're an idiot if you don't."

Hondoiprobablygetdressedfasterthanyouanywaywhichmeansicanwearextramagsandstillhavemycoffeebeforeyou11 TM