How do we measure winning the war on drugs?.......

[liliysdad]

 

[Handy]

Lily,
Seems like a good question to me. If a prison could be viewed as a microcosm of a completely totalitarian police state, and the police can't control drugs there; what reasonable expectation can there in the free world of thwarting drugs?

 

[PsychoSword]

To guys like lilysdad it's not about ever winning an impossible to win war. It's about continueing to fight the fight at whatever cost.

 

[liliysdad]

If prisons were allowed to be run they way they should be, it wouldnt be an issue. There is too much given to the groups who feel that prisoners should be rehabilitated and not punished, and they should have some semblance of civil rights inside.

 

[PsychoSword]

If prisons were allowed to be run they way they should be, it wouldnt be an issue.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I take issue with this. Isn't that kind of like saying communism would work great if people weren't greedy.

 

[liliysdad]

Im not sure I follow, maybe its too late.

What i was trying to express is that if priosn terms were focused more on punishment than rehabilitation, there would be less of a recurrence of crime, both in and out of prison. More hard labor, less TV watching, etc.

 

[Baxter]

What does years in prison contribute to rehabilitation of some poor schmo who bought weed from a cop? This is ignoring the problem, not treating it.

I also object to the use of 'most pot offenders I've met have used other drugs' as it condemns them of a separate offense, and has no bearing on causality. With recent statistics showing that 48% of those polled have tried pot, who aren't you going to throw in jail? With that percentage, your causality theory also applies to the infamous 'Most pot smokers have drunk milk at one time'.

These are the logical fallacies that have doomed this charade to continue sucking money out of my paycheck.

I say fine them, take all fines and run their required treatment program, don't just ignore it by sticking them in a closet.

 

[Danindetroit]

LD, who is brining in illicit materials into the prison system? Does your state have private prisons, or are they all state employees? How much are they paid?

 

[liliysdad]

I am not a correctional officer, nor do I care how they do their job. Im sure there is a small percentage of this going on, as Im sure there is a small percentage of bad cops. Ive never met either, although Im sure they exist.

 

[liliysdad]

What does years in prison contribute to rehabilitation of some poor schmo who bought weed from a cop?

This is the crux of the matter. At some point, prison went from being a place where criminals were punished in terrible ways, to a big , state sponsored betterment program. Go back to chain gangs, working in quarries, and stamping out license plates, IMO. No TV, no Law Books, no Porn, etc. The worse the stay, the less folks will want to go back.

 

[too many choices!?]

Driving impaired is bad, Mmmkay?

Baxter has it right...Driving while impaired period, is not a smart thing to do.....
Alcohol or lack of sleep whatever the cause it could be deadly.

The fact that drugs can't even be kept out of prison is something I did not even consider when making this thread.

 

[Danindetroit]

At some point, prison went from being a place where criminals were punished in terrible ways

I have to know where this came from. Prisons during the civil war like andersonville(sp?) were "terrible places", but the quakers I believe set up the first actual prison sytems, that employed reading the bible, contemplating your crime, and tools to learn a trade. The southern "chain gangs" used hard labor, I thing the original "up the river Ossing prison in NewYork" was built by the prisoners. Since each state runs it prison differently, and most "terrible things" were perpertrated by other prisoners, who formed gangs, enlighten us on the future prison, should it be a supermax, a tier system, or just a bunch of stocks.

 

[liliysdad]

Stocks works for me. Bread and water, nothing else./

 

[Danindetroit]

I think you have been watching a little too much TV. Where are prisoners fed bread and water, or when?

 

[liliysdad]

Perhaps you lack the ability to comprehend sarcasm?

 

[Handy]

The worse the stay, the less folks will want to go back.

Apparently, they don't want to go back, but do because the recidivism rate does not have an inverse relationship with punishment.

I thought everyone, especially cops, knew that by now.

Maybe the 150 year old concept of rehabilitation seems soft, but not rehabilitating felons and then paroling them is just stupid. You can send someone away for a few years for petty crime - they'll come out of prison with the knowledge, skills and will to commit violent felonies.

Prison is kind of a "gateway drug" for worse crime.

 

[liliysdad]

With lax sentencing, low mandatory sentences, I agree. We need to get tougher, impose max sentences, no parole.

Im sorry, Ive seen far too many "rehabilitated" criminals doing the same thing over and over again.

 

[Baxter]

Text in line with previous arguments is hard to read as sarcasm LD.

It comes down to the simple fact: non-victimizing crimes punished with jail time do not treat the original problem and instead exposes non-violent offenders to an environment that instills violent behavior.

Judging by the negative effects of pot seen by the scientific community, I'd venture that unprotected sex causes more damage to the person and to the society through vd, unwanted children, poorly based marraiges, and the resulting domestic violence cycle.

As for mandatory sentencing, you're outa luck, they just repealed the federal 'guideline' system.
--

I think our point is that prison doesn't treat the original problem. Kinda like smacking a teething puppy for chewing instead of solving the cause.

 

[MrBill]

Just my opinions..I've never tried any drugs, (pot,coke,etc.) but I grew up poor in a poor neighborhood and most of the guys "on the block" did do drugs, mostly marijuana, occasionally coke (it was too expensive, I guess). I don't approve of anyone driving under the influence of pot or alcohol (I'm guilty of the latter many times in my life) but from my recollection, guys who smoked dope never, ever, came close to acting stupid, loss of behavorial control, as did the guy who drank a couple of beers..there is a difference. I'm not saying I like it, but I know weed is just that, a damn weed that grows of it's own accord..I don't see it's inherent evilness, beer has to be made, coke processed, all the other stuff required some damn chemistry degree to make..I think there's something really wrong there. As to the prison issue, greed and corruption is everywhere..don't knock the few good correctional officers..I've seen fellow federal officers, senior and supervisory, hauled off by F.B.I. in cuffs. It happens more than you would like to think. I spent some time working the state prisons, I don't believe in the old way..it was horrible beyond belief..not right to put everyone in the same boat. Don't get me wrong, I am far from having ever been a "friendly boss", in any of my careers. States are different, some amenities are excessive. There is no rehab. You lock them up, give some curricular activities to keep them busy, if they have some good in them, they will try not to come back, hopefully. But the old ways truly degrade us all. Wanton murder, violent rape, assault..nothing today, as horrible as it may be, can be compared to that abomination.

 

[griz]

You didn't actually answer the question about how can we win the war on drugs when we can't keep them out of prisons? I doubt you are seriously proposing doing away with the bill of rights. So eliminating drug usage overall would be impossible when it can't be done in the prisions. The fact that you think they are too easy on the prisoners is irrelevant, the inside of a prision is still vastly more totalitarian than the out side.