How about secession?

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well the Confederate flag is a symbol of slavery and oppresion. It can be clearly seen in Klan rallies. Anybody who flies this flag in this day and age, is nothing but a racist. This flag is based on a history of separation and inequality towards people of colour. It is sickening that some throwbacks still talk about separation in 2005.

The seccesionist States lost, as thier cause of oppression was unjust and immoral. Their brief tenure was marked by oppression and murder, they legislated racism and slavery. Their symbol was thier flag.
 
i realize i am in america and i served my country both in the air force and the doj. yet i still have an affection for the csa and i am not ashamed in any way. it is not my intent to suceed or wish we had slavery. just pride for my fellow southerners who fought for what they felt was right.
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(emphasis added by me)

jeff_troop, what bothers me is that it isn't about what people felt was right at the time, it's the fact that they refuse to recognize what's wrong once it is clearly demonstrated. Even Nazis and Communists believed that their causes were right at the time (unfortunately, some still do). However, it doesn't make their causes any more right or just.

Just so we're clear, I'm not playing into stereotypes of southern rednecks spittin' chaw, raisin' hell with a Rebel cry, and flying their flag. I have no doubt that a great many educated, non-tobacco chewing people fly the Confederate flag; I see this every day where I live, and Delaware never even seceded; I see it in Pennsylvania, Maryland, and New Jersey, of all places (I still can't understand this). Nor am I attributing conscious racist intentions to everybody who flies a Confederate flag.

However, if you were of German descent, would you fly a Nazi flag? No, you probably wouldn't. The Confederate flag, in whichever manifestation you choose, represents hatred, slavery, death, and treason to a great many people in the United States whether you care to admit it or not. It's an affront to African-Americans and to the memory of every Federal soldier who fought and died bringing the traitors back into the Union. It's an affront to those who participated in civil rights activity, and it's an affront to those who read and understand history and acknowledge the pain and evil behind the ideologies of the Confederacy.

They're called rebels for a reason ... Jeff Davis should have hung for his crimes.

Also, just so we're clear, I support your First Amendment right to fly the Confederate flag. I also support my First Amendment right to call you out on bad taste at the very least.
 
The confederate flag is neither authorized by, nor a symbol of, this country.
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So flying the flag of, say, China or Cuba, isn't free speech? Your position is both rediculous and hypocritical.

And it's perfectly legal to be a racist, doesn't the wonderful ACLU protect the neo-nazis right to be stupid and ignorant? Seems like some folks here who are oh-so-concerned about the 1st amendment, are awfully eager to deny it to those whom they don't like. If it's ok to burn the US flag, then it should be equally fine to fly the stars and bars.

But such rank hypocracy is the stock in trade of the liberal/left, so it's really no suprise.
 
The Confederate Flag represents free government, voluntary government, and Constitutional government. It represents the same thing the US Constitution was intended to represent.

As far as I am concerned, all this hatred of the Confederate flag is really hatred of the original intent of the US Constitution and hatred of free government.

As for the Nazi references, I'd say Lincoln was more like Hitler than Jeff Davis was. Lincoln hoped to rid the US of all blacks by rounding them up and sending them all off to a colony somewhere outside the US. I am not aware that the South had any such plan to purge the States of negroes.

And Jeff Davis was a better man than Lincoln, but that ain't saying much.
 
yeah even though you are low life racist your right to free speach is protected as it should be.

Lincoln was a great man...Davis was just a small pathetic bigot...the winner writes history and thankfully the history of the CSA was that they were loosers..

But yeah you can be a low life racist scumbag all you want...but I wont stand in your way of free speach.
 
no there is no name calling..only fact


Where I come from racism is a crime punishable by imprisonment, and freedom of expression stops with hate crimes legislation.

I see nothing exemplary about leading a racist lifestyle. I see no benefit in it. Im my opinion such people are at the bottom and are indeed scumbags.

There is alot of really bad things associated with your Stars and Bars flag...

Like lynching...

How is it name calling to call somebody a racist who is?

Its just another label. Like Demosocalist right?
 
Well, this is going in circles.

Hugh Damright, I'm not going to fight the Civil War all over again with you, or rehash the umpteen million pages of history that have been written about it. I'd simply like you to engage in some intellectual honesty for a moment.

So, let's take what you said:

The Confederate Flag represents free government, voluntary government, and Constitutional government.
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How exactly did the Confederacy stand for anything free and voluntary? Oh wait, that's right, free and voluntary for white people.

Next up:

As for the Nazi references, I'd say Lincoln was more like Hitler than Jeff Davis was. Lincoln hoped to rid the US of all blacks by rounding them up and sending them all off to a colony somewhere outside the US. I am not aware that the South had any such plan to purge the States of negroes.
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(emphasis added by me)

Granted Lincoln had some strange and incorrect ideas on occasion. But your last statement is just plain silly. Of course the Confederacy didn't plan to purge their land of blacks ... they wanted to retain them as slaves!

I get really tired of Confederate apologists who deny the slavery issue for the sake of the state's rights argument. It's like saying that the Nazis weren't so bad because they fought the Soviets - nevermind that whole Holocaust thing. If you want to view the Confederate past and heritage through rose-colored glasses, fine, you're entitled to. But how dare you uphold it as freedom in any meaningful sense?

And, to keep this to the original topic, if anybody wants to try to secede and start a country based on gun ownership rights alone, I'll be the first to join up and bring your rebellious, traitorous behinds back into line. I like my guns, but I won't abide your attempts to ruin the country over the issue.
 
yeah I dont get why more people dont speak up and say that racism isnt cool..and has no place in the firearms community.

Say you were Black and you were visiting this forum..would some of these members make you feel welcome? I doubt it.

Some members here seem to have alot of hate towards certain groups like Liberals, Blacks, Non religous...

At what point is it ok?
 
lol not needed to state that as its just a given...

Every communist in the world comes from Canada right? lol
 
yeah its no wonder when you have antis trolling on these boards and they read some of these posts..lol the whole argument is just so simple for them after that...

I honestly think by allowing bad elements within the community to colour the outlook of the entire group..by not speaking out against it...it almost implies agreement of these ideas...

I dont think its the case though.
 
I'm sorry, but you're squirming, Leif. You were saying that the CSA was a bunch of Nazis, and I replied that Nazis are infamous for trying to purge a race from their Country, and the CSA did not do that, but Lincoln did. And then you seemed to totally disregard the fact that Lincoln was like Hitler. Lincoln hoped to purge all negroes out of the US and have a pure white race. By your own logic, wouldn't that make you a Nazi for flying the flag of the United States of America?

As for this turning to race, I want to talk about secession, but that causes some people to have a hissy fit and insult me and my culture and heritage. I have heard about enough of the KKK, slavery, lynchings, nazis, and other such insults. If you want to say the CSA was racist, then what the hell was Lincoln?

"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races." --Lincoln, From a speech in Springfield, IL; 17 July 1858
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I honestly think by allowing bad elements within the community to colour the outlook of the entire group ...
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459, you are about the worst element here. Someone else already said you need to be banned if you cannot control your childish outbursts. Suddenly you're the good guy?
 
yeah I am the good guy...I dont care for revisionist history...

Glad you think Im the worst element here...So why should I be banned? For saying racism is wrong? For saying racists are bad people?
 
Hugh Damright, no squirming here. I won't excuse Lincoln for racist beliefs either, nor did many abolitionists of that era. However, at least Lincoln led the effort to bring the CSA back into the Union and to free the slaves, however misguided his intentions regarding their fate afterwards may have been. And what did the CSA do? That's right, they fought to preserve slavery. Which is worse? You tell me.

As for Hitler analogies, we can sit here and play that game all night long and get the thread closed as a result. I did not say that the Confederates and the Nazis were one and the same ... I said that their apologists are guilty of the same sin, that of not acknowledging the evil inherent within their representative causes. Furthermore, I doubt you'll find too many people to support your contention that Lincoln was like Hitler in a broad sense.

As for this:

I have heard about enough of the KKK, slavery, lynchings, nazis, and other such insults.
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Apparently you haven't heard enough. Whether or not you care to admit that racism played a significant role in Southern culture and heritage (whatever that may be - I'd say the definition is pretty hazy), it did. In fact, it played, and continues to play a significant portion in the culture and heritage of the country as a whole, so I'm not excusing my Northern brethren either.

If you think I'm a Nazi for flying the flag of the United States ... well, I don't even have a coherent response for that. :mad:

It's also pretty naive to think that a conversation about secession will not eventually turn toward race, seeing as the only historical example of secession in the history of this country involved race to a great extent. BTW, you and Rebar are the ones who brought up the issue of the Confederate flag, not myself or 459.
 
The problem is that you won't get any state to suceed.
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The practical question of whether a states or states might suceed is irrelevant to the question of whether secession is illegal. Without some reference to a law, I see no support for the contention that secession is illegal.
The consitution also makes it illegal to sieze land that is within a state, adjacent to a state, of bordering on any state, in order to create a new state.
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The illegality of creating a new state is also irrelevant to the question of an existing state seceeding.

In short, I take exception to people tossing around the contention that secession is illegal or traitorous when they can't cite a law to support their position.
 
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