Home Defense, what do you think? (deceiving title)
- Thread starter relientk1988
- Start date
Well, Kinda! 
Para Bellum
New member
I live in Vienna/Austria (Europe), but...
my Country and City seem to be the middle of peace. However my best friend was stabbed in the head by a shizoid-paranoic at work. We are business-partners (attorneys at law) don't do crime nor divorce, just commercial litigation and business law. This freak wanted to be represented by our firm but we turned him down, he was too freaky. So the next day he came with a folding knife. He stabbed my partner in the head again and again until the knive broke. It took my partner two months and seven operations to be back at work again. And he was even lucky.
Our case was not in any news. Freaks are everywhere. The fact that you don't read or hear about aggressive cirme doesn't mean it isn't there. It is. Until the above happened I shot and fought (unarmed defense "sports") mainly for fun. That has changed. I'm serious about it know. I even hadt to sit at my partner's bed in the hospital with my Glock. The bad guy was on the run still, kept threatening via phone, but the police said they had no personel to protect my partner. So we hired bodyguards. Until they arrived, I did the job for about three hours. I never would have dreamed that. But we all were pretty happy that I was prepared, trained and ready to do so.
The bad guy was captured four days later. Facing an trial for attempted murder now.
The craziest thing about all this is that I was 500km away in a court-hearing when the attack happened. Every other business day I would have been in the same room for our morning briefing at the time of the attack. I most likely would have drawn, fired, and stopped that nightmare before it really began. I was at the wrong place. And my partner didn't think about defense until that day. He smiled at me and kept thinking I was a little paranoid and a gun-freak etc. That perception has changed when I watched his back at the hospital.
In my neighborhood (which is not bad at all) two homes were broken into recently. I have to admit that nobody was home at the time.
my Country and City seem to be the middle of peace. However my best friend was stabbed in the head by a shizoid-paranoic at work. We are business-partners (attorneys at law) don't do crime nor divorce, just commercial litigation and business law. This freak wanted to be represented by our firm but we turned him down, he was too freaky. So the next day he came with a folding knife. He stabbed my partner in the head again and again until the knive broke. It took my partner two months and seven operations to be back at work again. And he was even lucky.
Our case was not in any news. Freaks are everywhere. The fact that you don't read or hear about aggressive cirme doesn't mean it isn't there. It is. Until the above happened I shot and fought (unarmed defense "sports") mainly for fun. That has changed. I'm serious about it know. I even hadt to sit at my partner's bed in the hospital with my Glock. The bad guy was on the run still, kept threatening via phone, but the police said they had no personel to protect my partner. So we hired bodyguards. Until they arrived, I did the job for about three hours. I never would have dreamed that. But we all were pretty happy that I was prepared, trained and ready to do so.
The bad guy was captured four days later. Facing an trial for attempted murder now.
The craziest thing about all this is that I was 500km away in a court-hearing when the attack happened. Every other business day I would have been in the same room for our morning briefing at the time of the attack. I most likely would have drawn, fired, and stopped that nightmare before it really began. I was at the wrong place. And my partner didn't think about defense until that day. He smiled at me and kept thinking I was a little paranoid and a gun-freak etc. That perception has changed when I watched his back at the hospital.
In my neighborhood (which is not bad at all) two homes were broken into recently. I have to admit that nobody was home at the time.
relientk1988
New member
...
Well, I thank you all for your opinions expressed here. I feel now that I have a better understanding of this topic and hopefully you do too.
Ben
Well, I thank you all for your opinions expressed here. I feel now that I have a better understanding of this topic and hopefully you do too.
Ben
Ben,
You started this thread by saying that "I live in the suburbs and not really afraid of anything. My shotgun is locked up" and pretty much said that you didn't have any loaded firearms readily available for self-defense. Later on in the thread you say: "no one has backed me up yet" which I took to mean that you were still saying that your level of home defense (no loaded firearms) was sufficient.
Maybe I read it wrong, but it seemed that you were, at the least, heavily implying that having loaded firearms handy was approaching the same level as having machine gun nests and claymores while at the same time you were sticking to your level of preparation as perfectly adequate.
No two people are going to agree entirely on what is an adequate level of protection. I know a retired state trooper who makes it a point to always lock his doors, to always own a large, intimidating, trained dog, and to have a loaded gun secreted in every room. That's a bit more than I am willing to do, but I know that he's dealt much more often with the scum of the earth than I have. I don't follow his example in every respect, but I don't think that he's paranoid either.
My parents own self-defense firearms that they keep loaded, but they have them put away so securely that I doubt they could ever make use of them. As I said, I know some people who feel that even locking their doors is somehow an admission of vulnerability. I'm sure they think I'm nuts for locking my doors and keeping a loaded firearm readily available.
I truly hope that these folks never get into a real jam. That they don't ever need a loaded firearm. I hope that I don't get into a situation where I must resort to firearms. But, I have determined that I will make that option available to me so that if I need to, I can make use of it. Not because I think I'm likely to experience violent crime but because I couldn't live with myself if it DID happen and I had the means to stop it but couldn't because I hadn't made "reasonable" preparations.
That's really the key. Some people want reasons NOT to prepare. They can make a list a mile long if you discuss it with them. Low crime area, inconvenient, whatever...
I do my best to prepare to deal with the things I can't tolerate happening. My "reasonable rule" is basically this:
If I really don't want something to happen, and I can take precautions to prevent it then I will as long as those precautions don't require excessive cost or inconvenience.
Carrying a full-sized pistol or revolver all the time fits into the "excessive inconvenience" category for me. I make it a point to always carry a firearm and a spare mag, but I'm not going to carry something that requires me to alter my wardrobe or lifestyle to accomodate.
Fortifying my house comes under the heading of excessive cost. I have a monitored security system and I lock my doors and windows, but my house is not particularly difficult to break into for various reasons. I'm just not to the stage where I'm ready to put up bars or install fortified doors.
So, YES, I agree that one can go too far. It's just that everyone has a different standard of "reasonable."
One must be very careful when feeling around this topic because it's very easy for people to get the idea that you don't feel that they are reasonable because their "standard of reasonable" is different from yours. Especially if there are implications of paranoia or jokes about machine guns on the roof, etc.
But, it's interesting to have these discussions to see what other folks are doing and what they think is "reasonable." That's what these forums are all about, after all.
You started this thread by saying that "I live in the suburbs and not really afraid of anything. My shotgun is locked up" and pretty much said that you didn't have any loaded firearms readily available for self-defense. Later on in the thread you say: "no one has backed me up yet" which I took to mean that you were still saying that your level of home defense (no loaded firearms) was sufficient.
Maybe I read it wrong, but it seemed that you were, at the least, heavily implying that having loaded firearms handy was approaching the same level as having machine gun nests and claymores while at the same time you were sticking to your level of preparation as perfectly adequate.
No two people are going to agree entirely on what is an adequate level of protection. I know a retired state trooper who makes it a point to always lock his doors, to always own a large, intimidating, trained dog, and to have a loaded gun secreted in every room. That's a bit more than I am willing to do, but I know that he's dealt much more often with the scum of the earth than I have. I don't follow his example in every respect, but I don't think that he's paranoid either.
My parents own self-defense firearms that they keep loaded, but they have them put away so securely that I doubt they could ever make use of them. As I said, I know some people who feel that even locking their doors is somehow an admission of vulnerability. I'm sure they think I'm nuts for locking my doors and keeping a loaded firearm readily available.
I truly hope that these folks never get into a real jam. That they don't ever need a loaded firearm. I hope that I don't get into a situation where I must resort to firearms. But, I have determined that I will make that option available to me so that if I need to, I can make use of it. Not because I think I'm likely to experience violent crime but because I couldn't live with myself if it DID happen and I had the means to stop it but couldn't because I hadn't made "reasonable" preparations.
That's really the key. Some people want reasons NOT to prepare. They can make a list a mile long if you discuss it with them. Low crime area, inconvenient, whatever...
I do my best to prepare to deal with the things I can't tolerate happening. My "reasonable rule" is basically this:
If I really don't want something to happen, and I can take precautions to prevent it then I will as long as those precautions don't require excessive cost or inconvenience.
Carrying a full-sized pistol or revolver all the time fits into the "excessive inconvenience" category for me. I make it a point to always carry a firearm and a spare mag, but I'm not going to carry something that requires me to alter my wardrobe or lifestyle to accomodate.
Fortifying my house comes under the heading of excessive cost. I have a monitored security system and I lock my doors and windows, but my house is not particularly difficult to break into for various reasons. I'm just not to the stage where I'm ready to put up bars or install fortified doors.
So, YES, I agree that one can go too far. It's just that everyone has a different standard of "reasonable."
One must be very careful when feeling around this topic because it's very easy for people to get the idea that you don't feel that they are reasonable because their "standard of reasonable" is different from yours. Especially if there are implications of paranoia or jokes about machine guns on the roof, etc.
But, it's interesting to have these discussions to see what other folks are doing and what they think is "reasonable." That's what these forums are all about, after all.
Jungle Work
Moderator
PB,
As a Chief of Police I had a lot of contact with the Attorneys in my jurisdiction.
Each one of them I knew had a pistol in their desk drawer at their office.
They recognized the fact that some of the folks they delt with were "crazy".
The only one I knew who didn't have a gun in her desk was a female attorney who could out crazy the carzies. Her office was across the street from the PD and every now and then we'd see a crazy running out the front door of her office.
Jungle Work
As a Chief of Police I had a lot of contact with the Attorneys in my jurisdiction.
Each one of them I knew had a pistol in their desk drawer at their office.
They recognized the fact that some of the folks they delt with were "crazy".
The only one I knew who didn't have a gun in her desk was a female attorney who could out crazy the carzies. Her office was across the street from the PD and every now and then we'd see a crazy running out the front door of her office.
Jungle Work
Jungle Work
Moderator
For those who don't want to have firearms readily accessable in their homes,
I've worked a bunch of murders where folks where victims of home invasion and several tried to fight them off the BGs with Kitchen Knives, but were not as strong as their assailants. I was always amazed to find unloaded guns in the closet or drawers. If you die, I'l feel sorry for you, but never fear, there is somebody in the local Police who will work your murder. If it's just you, no problem. But if you have a family, you're a sorry POS if you do not live up to your responsibility and try to protect and save your wife and children to the best of your ability. JMHO.
Jungle Work
I've worked a bunch of murders where folks where victims of home invasion and several tried to fight them off the BGs with Kitchen Knives, but were not as strong as their assailants. I was always amazed to find unloaded guns in the closet or drawers. If you die, I'l feel sorry for you, but never fear, there is somebody in the local Police who will work your murder. If it's just you, no problem. But if you have a family, you're a sorry POS if you do not live up to your responsibility and try to protect and save your wife and children to the best of your ability. JMHO.
Jungle Work
relientk1988
New member
thank you John
Well John I just read your post and I'm actually really happy the way this turned out. Like I said there have been alot of views expressed. Yeah I do take precautions that maybe in my earlier postings they were not evident. I will reiterate, I don't think anyone is crazy for CCW/HD or anything else as long as it doesn't "consume" them. That's all. I like guns alot. I like to shoot. But there have been posts where people have loaded guns on every table. I don't know how comfortable I would be in a house like that. Get up for a drink of water and get blown away ;-). I know that doesn't happen all the time but all it takes is one idiot out there shooting at his friend in the kitchen for all of us, all of us, and Gun control advocates have another statistic.
Ben
Well John I just read your post and I'm actually really happy the way this turned out. Like I said there have been alot of views expressed. Yeah I do take precautions that maybe in my earlier postings they were not evident. I will reiterate, I don't think anyone is crazy for CCW/HD or anything else as long as it doesn't "consume" them. That's all. I like guns alot. I like to shoot. But there have been posts where people have loaded guns on every table. I don't know how comfortable I would be in a house like that. Get up for a drink of water and get blown away ;-). I know that doesn't happen all the time but all it takes is one idiot out there shooting at his friend in the kitchen for all of us, all of us, and Gun control advocates have another statistic.
Ben
Guy B. Meredith
New member
California is okay except for that overly populated thin blue line along the coast.
My firearms are for recreation only, however I keep my .357 magnum and about 70 rounds of ammo next to me at night. Why? Because I would feel stupid if something did happen and I hadn't taken advantage of this defensive measure available to me.
I've always lived in the suburbs.
Lessee, in Costa Mesa, CA there was a cops and robber incident where the BG was hiding at the corner of our house and dropped his gun near our front window. We heard about it later.
Same house, our next door neighbor was held up for tax refund by individual carrying a shotgun.
Another house in Costa Mesa a few blocks away, someone came through our house when we were gone and fortunately was satisfied with a pile of quarters.
Same house, police helicopter overhead looking for BG running through and hiding in backyards. First and last time I had the gun out and loaded--12 GA.
Moved to crime free (per community evaluation web site) San Ramon next to crime free Danville, Alamo, Lafayette and Olinda.
Dentist killed in Alamo in shootout with home invaders. His wife and brother beat one down with a frying pan. Coupla women killed in the Lafayette/Orinda area by handymen, etc.
BGs broke into several storage units in our apartment complex.
Moved into senior community of 1960s ranch homes in nice rural corner of San Ramon, felt free of crime, thought previous owner was nuts for all the locks in the place. Did not use about half the locks.
April 2004 our 1993 Mazda was stolen out of our closed garage, apparently with a remote control to open the door. Possibly work of East Palo Alto group. Fortunately they did not venture into our house through the unlocked ajoining door.
Same week a BG started to break back window of neighbor's house, scared off by family party next door to that house.
Last weekend BGs left a stolen car about 100 ft. down the street from us, came down and stole our second car from in front of our house.
The owners in this senior community are frequently doing upgrades and tons of undocumented day workers, contractors and others are here. Sometimes the crowds of outsiders may be cover for other unsavory types. Seniors hire gardeners, handymen and others. Some are long term relationships, others are transient.
We now use most of the locks and a couple more in this low crime rate area. Again, my firearms were selected and purchased soley for recreation, but I would not want to be so stupid as to neglect utilizing the tools at hand for self defense.
My firearms are for recreation only, however I keep my .357 magnum and about 70 rounds of ammo next to me at night. Why? Because I would feel stupid if something did happen and I hadn't taken advantage of this defensive measure available to me.
I've always lived in the suburbs.
Lessee, in Costa Mesa, CA there was a cops and robber incident where the BG was hiding at the corner of our house and dropped his gun near our front window. We heard about it later.
Same house, our next door neighbor was held up for tax refund by individual carrying a shotgun.
Another house in Costa Mesa a few blocks away, someone came through our house when we were gone and fortunately was satisfied with a pile of quarters.
Same house, police helicopter overhead looking for BG running through and hiding in backyards. First and last time I had the gun out and loaded--12 GA.
Moved to crime free (per community evaluation web site) San Ramon next to crime free Danville, Alamo, Lafayette and Olinda.
Dentist killed in Alamo in shootout with home invaders. His wife and brother beat one down with a frying pan. Coupla women killed in the Lafayette/Orinda area by handymen, etc.
BGs broke into several storage units in our apartment complex.
Moved into senior community of 1960s ranch homes in nice rural corner of San Ramon, felt free of crime, thought previous owner was nuts for all the locks in the place. Did not use about half the locks.
April 2004 our 1993 Mazda was stolen out of our closed garage, apparently with a remote control to open the door. Possibly work of East Palo Alto group. Fortunately they did not venture into our house through the unlocked ajoining door.
Same week a BG started to break back window of neighbor's house, scared off by family party next door to that house.
Last weekend BGs left a stolen car about 100 ft. down the street from us, came down and stole our second car from in front of our house.
The owners in this senior community are frequently doing upgrades and tons of undocumented day workers, contractors and others are here. Sometimes the crowds of outsiders may be cover for other unsavory types. Seniors hire gardeners, handymen and others. Some are long term relationships, others are transient.
We now use most of the locks and a couple more in this low crime rate area. Again, my firearms were selected and purchased soley for recreation, but I would not want to be so stupid as to neglect utilizing the tools at hand for self defense.
Guy B. Meredith
New member
In most costal areas of California it is not easy to be permitted armed self defense outside the home. In our area that is not even a consideration so we are not one of the areas where we are constantly on armed alert, nor do we have the first hand observations to contribute to the rest on THR.
FrankDrebin,
Mathman has it right. I am a native Californian raised for 8 years in Bellflower in LA county and then in Orange County for most of the next 40 years.
When my brother and I were very young growing up and our home town of Westminster, CA had 2800 residents we were constantly dismayed by the influx of 'foreigners' from the other states, thought the state needed a 6 lane freeway (that was considered big at the time) going one way--either east or into the ocean.
Now we are just sending those immigrants and their progeny back 'home'.
Some of the progeny have made bucks on the hyped economy here and are doing in the people that stayed 'home' and are still living on the local economy.
Too be fair, most of the immigrants did not come from Arizona--seems they knew when they had a good thing.
FrankDrebin,
Mathman has it right. I am a native Californian raised for 8 years in Bellflower in LA county and then in Orange County for most of the next 40 years.
When my brother and I were very young growing up and our home town of Westminster, CA had 2800 residents we were constantly dismayed by the influx of 'foreigners' from the other states, thought the state needed a 6 lane freeway (that was considered big at the time) going one way--either east or into the ocean.
Now we are just sending those immigrants and their progeny back 'home'.
Some of the progeny have made bucks on the hyped economy here and are doing in the people that stayed 'home' and are still living on the local economy.Too be fair, most of the immigrants did not come from Arizona--seems they knew when they had a good thing.
I don't think that keeping a gun, or 2 for self defense at home is a bad thing. If you don't want to do it, not really my problem, my concern, nor am I going to worry about it. However, I do, and I would not hesitate to use it if need be. The chances of needing it are small, but small when it comes to my life, is too big. I own 2 large dogs, have plants with painful thorns (in FLA, there are some goodies) planted in strategic places to make my home less of a target. Is that over the top? I don't think so. Better that they don't even try to get in, then me have to shoot them/dogs tear them apart, wife scratch them with her nails, right?