Home Defense Carbine Caliber?
- Thread starter RevolverOcelot
- Start date
Deaf Smith
New member
Personally I prefer my M1 Carbine. With JSP ammo it has plenty of power, low blast, low flash, no kick, very good reliability, and low bore axis allows very precise shot placement at close range.
It's also one of the handiest rifles.
Deaf
It's also one of the handiest rifles.
Deaf
Theohazard
New member
I'm always amazed at the number of people who advocate that they'd rather have a 7.62x51mm rifle in the military than a 5.56. I'm guessing most of those people have never spent a day in a Marine or Army infantry unit and actually had to carry a full combat load. Not only are rifles chambered in 7.62x51mm noticably heavier than rifles chambered in 5.56, but the ammo is twice as heavy. So soldiers and Marines can literally carry double the ammo if they're carrying a 5.56 rifle. That's not insignificant at all. There's a reason why almost every single modern military uses 5.56 or a similar intermediate-powered rifle cartridge.Kosh75287 said:
The M16 design was vastly improved within just two years, not decades. The M16A1 went into service in 1967, and it fixed the problems with the original XM16E1 that was prematurely issued in 1965. So all the Internet drivel you hear today about the "unreliability" of the AR-15 is solely based on the two-year stint of the XM16E1 back in 1965 and 1966.Kosh75287 said:
My "decades and decades" comment was referring to the small tweaks that have been made over the years that have further improved an already excellent design, like insulated extractor springs and improved magazine followers.
If I had to use a rifle for home defense in our little Townhouse? With a max. range, any which direction of 7m? The M1 carbine in my safe would be it, soft point ammo. Except I have only South Korean 15 round magazines? Flimsy.
My Steyr AUG with the factory magazines, totally reliable, 28" overall length? I think. But without ear protection? No thank you. Suppressed? A thought.
So as my Glock 19 with TruGlo night sights is on the bedside table, or when up and dressed, in a holster, 16 rounds of Ranger 147g HP will have to suffice.
In 1946, the British establishment came out with a select fire rifle, the EM2. A .280 calibre, Bull Pup, that would be a great rifle now. Close to the 6.8 that everybody raves about? Just sayin.
My Steyr AUG with the factory magazines, totally reliable, 28" overall length? I think. But without ear protection? No thank you. Suppressed? A thought.
So as my Glock 19 with TruGlo night sights is on the bedside table, or when up and dressed, in a holster, 16 rounds of Ranger 147g HP will have to suffice.
In 1946, the British establishment came out with a select fire rifle, the EM2. A .280 calibre, Bull Pup, that would be a great rifle now. Close to the 6.8 that everybody raves about? Just sayin.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Dunno about y'all, but I've "autopsied" a couple of coyotes I killed with a .223. 55-grain soft points. Chest shots, around 75 yards.
Basically, a double-handfull of mushy Yuck. D. E. A. D. Dead. Ruined.
At true "defense" distances of "around the house", hitting the center of mass a time or two is a wondrous instance of psychology. The aggressor's mind is changed from hostility to, "Help me!" if he survives.
The key is hitting that center of mass. Which of the two cartridges in question is a trivial issue as compared to the needed skill and self-discipline in a stressful situation.
Basically, a double-handfull of mushy Yuck. D. E. A. D. Dead. Ruined.
At true "defense" distances of "around the house", hitting the center of mass a time or two is a wondrous instance of psychology. The aggressor's mind is changed from hostility to, "Help me!" if he survives.
The key is hitting that center of mass. Which of the two cartridges in question is a trivial issue as compared to the needed skill and self-discipline in a stressful situation.
Maybe you should ask some of the troops of today who use the 5.56 to good effect, instead of referencing some Geriactric General from the 60's and his buddy, the pencil pusher dweeb.
5.56 is doing a great job killing terrorists and saving the lives of our troops. Leave the old prejudices back in the 70's.
Actually it's doing a mediocre job. It's just that almost no one today has anything to compare it to - very few soldiers today have ever been issued a M14 let alone shot someone with one.
For that matter a small fraction of them have ever tagged a deer.
There is no fundamental physiology difference between humans and similar sized medium game on torso shots. We have slightly lower density long bones, but kill shots rarely pass through a long bone. If a round has poor performance on deer (or would, if it were legal as in the case with M855) then it'll have poor performance on humans too. Both species requires the same CNS disruption or loss of blood pressure before they're stopped.
The reason we have to talk about the mistakes of the 60s is that those mistakes are still being issued today.
For that matter a small fraction of them have ever tagged a deer.
There is no fundamental physiology difference between humans and similar sized medium game on torso shots. We have slightly lower density long bones, but kill shots rarely pass through a long bone. If a round has poor performance on deer (or would, if it were legal as in the case with M855) then it'll have poor performance on humans too. Both species requires the same CNS disruption or loss of blood pressure before they're stopped.
The reason we have to talk about the mistakes of the 60s is that those mistakes are still being issued today.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
What the military issues is irrelevant to what I'd choose as a useful round for home-defense. 
Why not a .50 cal, or a 3 1/2 Mag Turkey Cannon....Come on folks...why such a large load of a long gun when a handgun with the right ammo will suffice! I keep hearing of shotgun and .556 with bells and whistles when a 9mm or .45 1911 with Hornady Critical Duty and simple laser will do the job to protect you without lighting up your living room. Why battle-ready long guns in a home salutation when practice at a 7-10 yard practiced range can put down the offender with a hand gun? Really, Folks...just tell us how much power you have and not explain your reasoning in such a home protection situation.
A pause for the COZ
New member
the 223 is more than a serviceable SD cartridge when used in the right format.
In my opinion along with lots examples.
The 223/5.56 mm round performs best and is very destructive.
When using a 55gr projectile moving above 3000 fps.
Thats why the M16 A1 pushing a 55gr fmj through a 20 inch 1-12 twist barrel
in the 3000+ feet range was so successful.
It was not until they started making the platform more user/ Mission adaptable package that the performance started to slip.
In my opinion the 223 in a carbine is not an effective combination.
Thats why you see the heavier and heavier bullets trying to get some performance out of the M4's
With the carbine length AR's your just not pushing the round fast enough.
Instead of the devastating tumbling action of the 55gr rifle load. Your getting 22 cal sized holes.
I have seen video of a 55gr fmj (ball) load shot from a 20 inch 1-12 rifle penetrate a steel plate.
At the same distance a green tip 62gr steel penetration load shot from a carbine could not penetrate.
So Mr Stoner actually did have the right formula the 1st time. It was not until we started messing with it that the performance suffered.
That is why I went to the 30 cal 300 Black out to cover my Carbine needs and built a 20 inch 1-12 .223 rifle for my 223 work.
With the 223/ 5.56 speed is king.
Thats my story and I built to stick too it.
In my opinion along with lots examples.
The 223/5.56 mm round performs best and is very destructive.
When using a 55gr projectile moving above 3000 fps.
Thats why the M16 A1 pushing a 55gr fmj through a 20 inch 1-12 twist barrel
in the 3000+ feet range was so successful.
It was not until they started making the platform more user/ Mission adaptable package that the performance started to slip.
In my opinion the 223 in a carbine is not an effective combination.
Thats why you see the heavier and heavier bullets trying to get some performance out of the M4's
With the carbine length AR's your just not pushing the round fast enough.
Instead of the devastating tumbling action of the 55gr rifle load. Your getting 22 cal sized holes.
I have seen video of a 55gr fmj (ball) load shot from a 20 inch 1-12 rifle penetrate a steel plate.
At the same distance a green tip 62gr steel penetration load shot from a carbine could not penetrate.
So Mr Stoner actually did have the right formula the 1st time. It was not until we started messing with it that the performance suffered.
That is why I went to the 30 cal 300 Black out to cover my Carbine needs and built a 20 inch 1-12 .223 rifle for my 223 work.
With the 223/ 5.56 speed is king.
Thats my story and I built to stick too it.
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Brotherbadger
New member
Agreed. Also, 223 can easily and reliably take down a 110 lb whitetail, assuming you are doing heart/lung shots and limit to closer range shots. It won't work out to 300 yards, but inside 125 it works fine.
Art Eatman, as usual, has spoken a lot of common sense in this thread...and as usual it has been mostly ignored in favor of everyone's preconceived notions.
The original posted does not have an AR. He might get one but that really is neither here nor there. They ARE great guns...but so is his mini-14! (Even more so if he gets a collapsable stock) Military ball is not a good HD round, but a controlled pair of 45-55gr hollowpoint or poly tip varmint rounds will turn the dirt bag's chest cavity to complete goo at HD distances. The results will not be ambiguous in the least; the damage will be MASSIVE and CATASTROPHIC!
Comparative rifle accuracy (mini vs AR), ball ammo effectiveness, reliability of ARs made 60 years ago, .308/7.62x51 (for urban HD?! Really?)....NONE of this stuff is even relevant to the conversation at hand.
RevolverOcelot, if you want an AR then get a decent one and you really will love it.But if you load up your Mini-14 with good ammo, and wait at the end of the hall with it as opposed to an AR, you are just about as well armed. In an open country military gunfight, no. In a civilian HD shooting, MOST DEFINITELY. To quote Clint Smith, "There isn't any of that stuff I wanna get hit by. I don't need a thousand dollar gun with the most black paint on it to defend my home, I just need to learn to run the gun I have."
The original posted does not have an AR. He might get one but that really is neither here nor there. They ARE great guns...but so is his mini-14! (Even more so if he gets a collapsable stock) Military ball is not a good HD round, but a controlled pair of 45-55gr hollowpoint or poly tip varmint rounds will turn the dirt bag's chest cavity to complete goo at HD distances. The results will not be ambiguous in the least; the damage will be MASSIVE and CATASTROPHIC!
Comparative rifle accuracy (mini vs AR), ball ammo effectiveness, reliability of ARs made 60 years ago, .308/7.62x51 (for urban HD?! Really?)....NONE of this stuff is even relevant to the conversation at hand.
RevolverOcelot, if you want an AR then get a decent one and you really will love it.But if you load up your Mini-14 with good ammo, and wait at the end of the hall with it as opposed to an AR, you are just about as well armed. In an open country military gunfight, no. In a civilian HD shooting, MOST DEFINITELY. To quote Clint Smith, "There isn't any of that stuff I wanna get hit by. I don't need a thousand dollar gun with the most black paint on it to defend my home, I just need to learn to run the gun I have."
Tikka_shooter
Inactive
I live in a forest on 49 acres; so, shot after damage isn't a concern. Maybe if I stood on the roof with a 300?
In other environments, shot after damage and over penetration would be a major concern. If bullets started penetrating the walls of your house; my guess is you'd shoot back.
The M4, M16 and the MP5A are so popular with many worldwide Special Operations units is the ergonomics are good.
As the ergonomics suck; the best way to carry an AK is safety off and have the selector where it needs to be.
I own quite a few AKs and ARs in a variety of calibers; I apply Clint Eastwood's limitations to weapons as well as myself.
The unit that fought at Ia Drang fought with the M16 which answers any questions on the subject of combat reliability. As Colonel Moore was old school infantry; his Troopers cleaned their weapons.
Same as any soldier or Vet who has used the M16/M4 in combat; I don't debate what people believe or read online.
In other environments, shot after damage and over penetration would be a major concern. If bullets started penetrating the walls of your house; my guess is you'd shoot back.
The M4, M16 and the MP5A are so popular with many worldwide Special Operations units is the ergonomics are good.
As the ergonomics suck; the best way to carry an AK is safety off and have the selector where it needs to be.
I own quite a few AKs and ARs in a variety of calibers; I apply Clint Eastwood's limitations to weapons as well as myself.
The unit that fought at Ia Drang fought with the M16 which answers any questions on the subject of combat reliability. As Colonel Moore was old school infantry; his Troopers cleaned their weapons.
Same as any soldier or Vet who has used the M16/M4 in combat; I don't debate what people believe or read online.
I recently acquired an USGI M1 Carbine, and have been putting rounds downrange with it to assure reliability. Since home defense carbines are shot indoor, I am sensitive to noise, and muzzle blast, so shooting essentially a hot pistol round is fine for me. I will be using the M1 to supplement my 9MM and .45 pistols. YMMV.