Home Defense Carbine Caliber?

T. O'Heir said:
Unless you're way out in the Boonies, no rifle cartridge is suitable for HD. Far too much penetration with any bullet.
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You keep posting this nonsense in every thread that mentions using a .223 for home defense, I must have seen you post this at least five or six times now. Each time we point out that you're wrong and why, and yet you keep posting this again and again.

After all evidence that we've provided showing that -- with proper defensive ammo -- a .223 will penetrate walls LESS than any defensive pistol or shotgun load, do you still think we're somehow wrong? Do you have any evidence to show that all the tests we've linked so far are flawed and that the FBI and law enforcement agencies around the country are misguided in their choice of .223 rifles? Please, tell us why you think we're wrong.
 
I'd be 223 for me. No difference in performance, less recoil, cheaper and because it is far less likely to over penetrate than most any round.
 
RevolverOcelot, if you prefer the ergonomics of the AR and its pistol-grip, fine. But at defense distances, accuracy is not an issue. The Mini will hold "minute of cranium" quite well.
 
RevolverOcelot, if you prefer the ergonomics of the AR and its pistol-grip, fine. But at defense distances, accuracy is not an issue. The Mini will hold "minute of cranium" quite well.
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Not worried about accuracy in home defense, but I feel like I could "upgrade" to another 5.56 rifle eventually if I go with that caliber, but I'm not really an AR fan. The only AR-related rifle I would consider is the HK MR556. I'm not satisfied with the AR15's reliability history.
 
RevolverOcelot said:
I'm not satisfied with the AR15's reliability history
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The AR-15 family of rifles is one of the most reliable firearms in the history of firearms. My various ARs have been the most reliable guns I've ever owned, and my M16A2 I carried in the Marine Corps was extremely reliable as long as I wasn't using old, worn-out magazines.

The stories of the AR being unreliable come from Vietnam when they issued the first M16s to the troops without finishing the design. The barrel and chamber weren't chrome-lined, the buffer system was designed for the wrong ammo, the magazines sucked, and they didn't issue it with cleaning kits.

But once the rifle's design was finished properly and the troops were given cleaning kits, the rifle performed far better. Today, after decades and decades of refinement, there's no rifle I'd rather take to combat than a direct-impingement AR-platform rifle.

Both my current AR builds have been flawless without a single stoppage. I shoot suppressed a lot and the rifles get really dirty, but all I do is pop the BCG out once in a while, give it a quick wipedown and a quick lube, and pop it back in. I rarely ever clean my rifles, and yet they keep going and going.
 
As usaual Theo hit it right on the head.

A properly set up AR will run and run, even with abuse. A "Franken-gun" with the wrong port location or size, wrong buffer and spring or other problems will be a jam-o-matic.

I currently have 6 AR platforms and would trust any of them to run flawlessly for HD/SD.

Like Theo i carried a M16a2 in the Corps and with live ammo it NEVER failed to function. Add a BFA and shoot blanks--thats another story. In addition i have carried a 10.5" M4 in assorted "Sandboxes" over the last 10 years and my guns have been VERY reliable. I will say that working as a Contractor, i have trained and shot a lot more then i did as a Marine. Quarterly quals and lots of training in between have given the M4 LOTS of chances to malfunction. So far im TOTALLY convinced of the platforms reliability.
 
To be frank, this piece, which does contain valid statistical information, probably best explains my concerns with the AR15 and the 5.56mm in general.


http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2004/08/the_last_big_lie_of_vietnam_ki.html

In a 3 March 2003 written briefing, LCdr. Gary K. Roberts, USNR recommended to RAdm. Albert M. Calland, Commander, Naval Special Warfare (NSW) Command that he upgrades his command's 5.56mm weapons to the 6.8mm cartridge. That briefing, entitled, 'Enhancement of NSW Carbine & Rifle Capability,' opens by observing:



Recent combat operations have highlighted terminal performance problems, generally manifested as failures to rapidly incapacitate opponents, during combat operations when M855 62gr. 'Green Tip' FMJ is fired from 5.56mm rifles and carbines. Failure to rapidly incapacitate armed opponents increases the risk of U.S. forces being injured or killed and jeopardizes mission success.
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I used a 416 for a brief period of time on one contract. It was ok. Ran fine and the BCG stayed cleaner. A little more weight up front and seemed noiser suppressed then the DI guns ive run. The mags were STUPID heavy

All in all, im going to stick with DI in the AR platform
 
RevolverOcelot said:
What are yall's opinions about piston AR's?
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From a military standpoint, piston rifles are better for sustained full-auto fire because they run cooler and cleaner, which is why the Marine Corps uses a version of the HK 416 as their new squad automatic rifle. But unless you're in a home-defense situation that requires multiple thousands of rounds in a short period of time, I can't really see this as being an issue for a civilian. After all, the Army and Marine Corps have decided to stick with the direct-impingement M4/M16 for the foreseeable future, and that's because it fits the current need. None of the piston rifles tested by the Army were enough better than the M4 to justify a switch, and some were worse. And I think it's safe to say that the needs of the average civilian are less than that of the average soldier or Marine.

So that brings us to the advantages of a piston rifle for civilian use. There are really only two. The first is that it runs cleaner, so if you hate cleaning it's a better choice. The second is that it puts less gas to your face when shooting suppressed, which is a big issue for some silencer users.

But I prefer direct impingement for the following reasons:

-- DI rifles are simpler and the parts aren't proprietary to one specific company.

-- A DI rifle is lighter because there are fewer parts.

-- DI rifles tend to have less muzzle climb because there aren't extra moving parts above the barrel.

-- A suppressed DI rifle will be quieter than most suppressed piston rifles because it doesn't vent hot, loud gasses.
 
As for your concern about the 5.56, keep in mind that military rounds like the M855 are chosen for their penetration. And, as a result, they tend to punch right through people, causing less damage than a typical civilian defensive round. But civilians don't usually have a need for extra penetration, in fact we often want to avoid it. So law enforcement and home-defense rounds like Hornady TAP cause a lot more damage than military 5.56 ammo while also minimizing collateral damage due to over-penetration.
 
As for your concern about the 5.56, keep in mind that military rounds like the M855 are chosen for their penetration. And, as a result, they tend to punch right through people, causing less damage than a typical civilian defensive round. But civilians don't usually have a need for extra penetration, in fact we often want to avoid it. So law enforcement and home-defense rounds like Hornady TAP cause a lot more damage than military 5.56 ammo while also minimizing collateral damage due to over-penetration.
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While this is true about the M855, ballistics experts like Dr. Gary K Roberts have attested that the M193 loading (which is widely considered to be the most effective FMJ, if I'm not mistaken?) also doesn't reliably perform, and will either yaw and fragment, or punch a .22 hole.

I'm not filled with confidence about a round that performs reliably adequate only with certain loads and is too small/underpowered with FMJ.

But, maybe I'm being unfair. From what I've seen most 7.62x39 FMJ just passes straight through without much disruption too, but at least it's a .30 cal, 124 grain (or right around there) bullet, albeit much slower.
 
RevolverOcelot said:
While this is true about the M855, ballistics experts like Dr. Gary K Roberts have attested that the M193 loading (which is widely considered to be the most effective FMJ, if I'm not mistaken?) also doesn't reliably perform, and will either yaw and fragment, or punch a .22 hole.
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That's one of the reasons why nobody recommends M855 or M193 for law enforcement or home-defense use. Check out defensive loads like Hornady TAP.

That said, M193 is still FAR more effective than any duty or defensive pistol round.
 
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But we are not constrained to military FMJ anything. We can use what is best for our needs. Win 64 gr. PP anyone? TAP? Varminter? etc. etc. etc.

I can use 223, 7.62, 9mm, whatever with whatever ammo I want. If the ammo fits the bill, use it.

Chose gun..chose appropriate ammo. Next!
 
The m193 fmj is a frangible round out to about 175 yds in a 16" barrel, 200 or so from a 20". At hd ranges it causes massive wounds and destruction. You should not hesitate to consider it a very good choice for hd.
 
If the 5.56 didn't exist, somebody would invent it, and it would be the latest greatest wonder round, and very expensive.
But, we don't have to invent it...we can just go to Walmart and buy it.
I feel quite well armed with a 16" AR loaded with 20 55gn SP rounds in it.
 
I wouldn't be worried about the effect of .223 ammunition. Get a good high velocity hollow point or ballistic tip. Mine in the safe is loaded with 60 grain V-max from HPR. I know when I shot a hog with it, the hog was already starting to twitch before she had hit the ground.

FMJ ammunition, especially m855, really is not good for home defense. You'll end up with a bullet that doesn't fragment or yaw, punches a .22 caliber hole, and likely doesn't destabilize going through walls or other material and creates more collateral damage. Go with Hornady TAP or V max, Barnes TSX, Winchester PDX etc. if you want to increase the effect.

Granted, my VZ 58 in the safe is also loaded next to my AR with a magazine of Winchester PDX. However, to get to the gun cabinet I have to go to my closet. If I'm in my closet, I'm already behind 2 locked doors. The closet only has one entrance, and the only direction to fire is out the back of the house which backs up to a large berm behind my apartment. The handgun stays next to the bed to give me time to grab my girlfriend, lock in the closet, and get a gun each. This set up is planned to minimize risk, but will not eliminate it. In an apartment, even a high velocity .223 doesn't have to stay together very long to enter somebody else's house.
 
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