Hollow point Bullets a Waste of Money

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I will continue carrying hollowpoints in all of my carry guns. I believe they have a much better track record in stopping gunfights alot sooner than with ball ammo. The chances of overpenetration is very low with a good quality hollowpoint. I have worked too hard for too long to have some innocent bystander and a couple attorneys end up with my estate in a civil case from a round that overpenetrated a target that I had a "good" hit on. In the case that I might miss my target, the ricochet potential is much less with a hollowpoint than a round of ball ammo. The increase in cost is a small price for me to pay...seems like insurance in a way.
 
Misses are a risk. Shoot throughs are a risk. Underpenetration can get ya killed, over penetration can kill innocent others. Which you worry about most depends on you, or who is writing the checks?

In New York city in a two year period over 40 people were hit by bullets that went through other objetcs/people first. Many were killed. Cost the city millions. Trying to reduce that number is not a bad idea.

JHPs reduce the risk from misses (less ricochets), shoot throughs.

Bigger bullet holes are better bullet holes. The FBI test series shoots into gel through cloth, wood, steel, and glass. The better 9s avg .50 expansion, the 40s .60, the 45s .65 and do at least 12 inches over 95% of the time. That beats .355, .400, and .452.

I'll be loading w JHPs as long as it's legal.
 
EFMJ may be better than FMJ, but it is would not be my choice over JHP ammo.

I've shot the 165/40 from, through, and into various things and frequently had very little expansion (.425). The HS, GD, GS, SF all did consistently better. The std JHPs from Fed, Rem, Win, PMC were even better more often.

I've pulled them, reloaded them and pumped up the velocity to over 1100 fps and still got less than .45 expansion, never more than .64

If the idea was they may not be as good as the better JHPs at best, but they would be better at worst, then I have not seen that either. Based on my informal testing, they are a better choice than FMJ, but not JHPs. The 124/9, 165/40 and 165/200/45 do not penetrate very well in the FBI test series results I saw either; sometimes none of them make it over 12 inches, about 70% at best.

What was really strange was sometimes when they did not open up, they did penetrate much either; no pen _and_ no expansion! That's a nifty trick? ;)

Very easy to control and very reliable/accurate though.
 
My only "experience" in this issue came as a juror. The coroner's report said that any of the five hits would have been fatal. Snubbie .38; HydraShoks; range of maybe five feet.

The shooting was caught on tape, which was played for the jury. It was "Bang, bang, bang...pause...bang, bang, thump." No further movement from the deceased.

Couple this with the number of reports of over-penetration by RNL bullets: I decided that HPs were the way to go as to bullet type.

$0.02,

Art
 
The F-FMJ maybe has some competition....

Cor-Bon's answer to the E-FMJ is a Peter Pi design, the "PowerBall":

http://www.cor-bon.com/PowRball.html

The PowerBall seems to be clog-resistant to a strong degree, although perhaps not quite to the extreme the E-FMJ takes it. It appears that one it's started open via the ball, ordinary JHP principles take over and the rubber ball...goes God only knows where :). (Come to think, it'd be a pain to find via X-Rays, wouldn't it?)

The pictures Cor-Bon shows on their site show a pattern of expansion as radical as any JHP I've seen.

They also claim a round-nose feed profile for you slidegun guys that have such horrid traits as "feed ramps" on your guns that should properly have a spinning cylinder :p.

Naturally, I want to see some independent test data on the PowerBall's effects. But at least Cor-Bon is promising to support more calibers than Federal's so-far brain-dead limited line of fodder. Federal appears to have no interest in .38/.38+P/.357 and despite the fact that feed ramps aren't an issue with wheelguns, we can still use the clog-proof characteristics and the expansion across a wide velocity range. And we all know Cor-Bon tends to load up hotter than Federal's anemic standards.

If Federal would only size up the 124grain 9mm E-FMJ to .38Spl spec and get it going 950fps from a snubbie, they'd have probably the best "snubbie special" load out there.

But I suspect they're too conservative.
 
BrokenArrow: http://greent.com/40Page/general/EFMJ.htm

Michael Orick's informal tests also showed that the .40's have trouble, but that the 9's apparently work as advertised. No real reason seems to be given. He didn't do any tests on the .45 as it wasn't available yet. It would be interesting to see why. Where's ol' Tom B. when you need him?

Regarding the idea of the EFMJ, I tend to agree that it seems to be designed to not perform as radically as the HP, but that it is deisgned to work all the time. What interests me is your tests which seem to show that the EFMJ doesn't penetrate very far even when it doesn't expand. This would seem to suggest to me that something else must be slowing it down then, otherwise, why else would it not penetrate all the way through like ball right?

Two theories on that one. One is that the bullet is butt heavy, and it is tumbling, that's got to increase the wound cavity right? The other, is that a flat pointed bullet is more efficient (ala Wadcutter) at wounding tissue than a round nose which will tend to push flesh out of the way, rather than crushing it.

Also, regarding it's performance in the FBI tests, I definitely don't think it was designed for passing the FBI tests. However, I'm not particularly worried about them, I tend to prefer IWBA's guidelines. The FBI itself IIRC stated that when the designed the tests that they saw their needs as rather unique. The general trend seems to be that going through auto-glass is NEVER good for bullet performance, front windshields anyway... I don't think that side windows would offer as much of a hindrance to a well designed HP, or the EFMJ.

The other perk I see to the EFMJ is that it will expand in dry media. Federal calls it a Controlled Soft Point I believe, I think it behaves like a super soft point. It limits penetration in all media. The only problem with it is that the silicon in the nose is soft, in the pictures I've seen of the EFMJ going through glass, it appears the expanded part gets cut off. This is something that could perhaps is fixed with a better form of silicon/stronger jacket combination. Getting back to the point of this paragraph. Expanding in dry media is very advantageous in preventing wounding of innocents who are behind walls. And a desireable trait.

Your thoughts on all this?


End BrokenArrow specific reply [\B]
Just obeying my nit-picky nature here the PoweRBall, uses a Ceramic ball on the tip, the EFMJ uses silicon. Not plastic. Additionally, PoweRBall is not a new or novel idea Winchester developed a bullet that is suprisingly similar a while ago. Called the Winchester Expanding Point. Here's a link with a picture (a way down the page, which happens to be in German (sometimes) and rather poorly put together): http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Geschossbilder.html

EFMJ isn't entirely original either, it's just a really soft soft-point, but the design I find isn't a near identical copy of something another manufacturer introduced, not that long ago.

-Morgan
 
Fed .357 Mag 125 anemic?

Jim March wrote :
Federal appears to have no interest in .38/.38+P/.357 and despite the fact that feed ramps aren't an issue with wheelguns, we can still use the clog-proof characteristics and the expansion across a wide velocity range. And we all know Cor-Bon tends to load up hotter than Federal's anemic standards.
Click to expand...
Man, am I ‘way behind the times or something? Last I heard, the Fed 125 JHP .357 load (from four-inch revolvers) was the standard against which all police-use loads was measured. This was THE load that .357 SiG was set up to duplicate in autoloaders.

Not here to start an argument--I am basically ignorant of the newest whiz-bang revolver stuff. I know what I intend to keep using in MY .38 specials (158 LSWHP Rem or Win) and that I prefer big, heavy handloaded bullets in most of the others. But, has there been some sort of revolution about which I haven't heard?

Best,
Johnny
 
Being Handgun people, we have to look at the cold hard facts. ANY handgun that will not brake your wrist when you fire it is going to be a poor man stopper when compared to .308,.223 or7.62x39! If my Cor-bon 200gr. HP has a 50% chance of expanding then so be it. I will pay more for 50% better odds, it's only my life that depends on it! Stay Safe.
 
Shhhhhhh! ;)

Contained/Controlled Soft Point depending on who answers the email at Federal. Tom B. says contained and that was the working name during development.

After 4-6 layers of denim into water jugs:

165 EFMJ

970 fps 5/.425
965 5/.524
1082 exited 5, not recovered
1119 4/.609

165 Win S/SXT 1060 4/.69
165 PMC JHP 985 4/.66
180 S/SXT 4/.68
180 PMC SF 4/.75

Beats me what's up w EFMJ. I asked Tom B. about it, he said water is not a good medium for testing this bullet. Another engineer mentioned the lack of "sheer force" in water may have something to do with it? Seems to work fine in gel/tissue.

165 Fed EFMJ v 165 Rem GS

bare 12.4/.62 v 14.8/.64
cloth 13.3/.60 v 14.4/.66
steel 11.6/.51 v 17.1/.48
wboard 12.8/.61 v 16.6/.58
pwood 16/.58 v 19.3/.45
glass 11.7/.53 v 12.5/.51

Not bad at all, but not excaliber either?

Best reason to go for it is the $19 per box of 50?

I asked Tom B. _his_ first choice in a 40 defensive load: 155 Triton Quick-Shok. Best of the competition compared to his stuff (HS, SF, QS, EFMJ)? Gold Dot.
 
Good grief... I'm always the last to know.

Contained, controlled, the e-mail i got was controlled obviously.

Apparently they downgraded the velocity of the 9mm, or perhaps they dropped it because it wasn't meeting the claims. It was 1180, and now it's 1120 (oddly exactly the same as Federals other 124gr fodder). Any ideas on that? But I guess if it's accurate, and light recoiling that makes it what the 115gr SilverTip was before it became the evil round that didn't penetrate cardboard. It seems that Federal promised a lot in advertising, but never delivered. if you read their literature it is supposed to penetrate a lot farther.

Hollowpoints all work beautifully in water, what they fail in is tissue that doesn't have enough (as far as the data I've seen goes anyway). This I feel is what makes the EFMJ so special. I think it is definitely an good choice for people concerned about "over-penetration". Better even than the high speed 115's. It will expand in dry material when you miss (no more annoying "a miss is the ultimate in over-penetration comments" :-) ), and it *should* always expand in flesh though I'd like to see more evidence, perhaps some sort of real world examples?
The answer that it doesn't give is for those who want more penetration. I don't believe it will have much luck getting through an arm bone at all. Nose section will be torn apart, but who knows. The only other Excalibur in 9mm I'm looking at is handloaded high speed 147's. There was another post on it a while ago I was participating in. 1100fps, seems to be within the realm of the possible. But we're off topic now.

-Morgan
 
147/9 XTP in gel at 1169 fps: 13.3/.61
124/9 XTP in gel at 1325 fps: 11.87/.62

From a SIG P229 in 357SIG. ;)

Various 124/9s in gel after cloth (all std pressure but EFMJ:

124 EFMJ +P 11.5/.53
124 Starfire 13.2/.56
124 Golden Saber 12.7/.60
124 Gold Dot 16/.54
124 HS 13.2/.53
124 Partition Gold (Win LEO) 13.7/.65

EFMJ from MP5 at 1225 fps:

bare 11.3/.60
cloth 10.9/.60
steel 11.1/.49
wboard 9/.59
pwood 10.3/.60
glass 8.6/.51
 
Whether it costs me $1.50 (one mag of ball) or $4 (one mag of Hydrashok) to stop a bad guy, money is not an issue.

This is sort of akin to the guy that told me he got a $500 Glock because it was cheaper than buying an $800 1911 and that if he can protect himself for $500 and not $800, he will go the $500 route. His reasoning was that you should only spend just enough to meet you minimal standards. The Glock was the cheapest gun that satisfied his criteria and he wasn't going to spend any more than that. The reasoning might make some economical sense, but personally, saving my life or the life of a family member is not $ dependent.

I can get new ammo, another gun, a new car, or a new house, but I can't get a replacement for the wife and kids at any cost.
 
Wow this thread has taken on a life of its own, I suspected that this would be a touchy subject.

My real concern is not the money, but the lack of penetration on large fat bodied badguys, or skinny folks hit from the side as they are lunging towards me, resulting in superficial injuries.

I like my G-26, and my model 36 chiefs special, it seems to me from my own testing that in the 36 158gr LSWC give the best penetration, better than the federal hydra shoks I've been carrying. 9mm FMJ or hollowpoints of the +p flavor seem to do equaly well in the G-26.

Please dont tell me about geletin tests they are completely irrelevant, and more related to the Speed of the projectile FPS, and its configuration they tell me nothing about the effect on a human being in a real confrontation.
 
Master Blaster, in the court case to which I earlier referred, three of the HydraShok hits were from the side. The deceased wasn't "skinny", but generally slender. Anyway, I do recall that one bullet went through the right bicep, the rib cage, and through the heart.

There was one hit to the jaw/neck, and the final two were into the back in (generally) the upper center. Again, the coroner's report stated that any would have been fatal. To repeat, a 2" .38 Special.

And that's why I carry HydraShoks.

Art
 
Hey Master Blaster I'm on your team here. I'm a member of the super secret Penetration alliance as well. Shhh... if we're not quiet we'll get beat up by the wielders of CorBon and the like.

First off, no ballistic Gelatin doesn't perfectly replicate human tissue, but it does darned close. Second, there are deeper penetrating hollowpoints. In 9mm the 147's tend to get better penetration, in the neighborhood of 14-16" If you want lots of penetration get the 147gr XTP, and don't send it at speeds over 1000 fps. It gets more than 16" of penetration in the FBI tests I've seen. It penetrates a little too far for my tastes though. I tend to stick to the 13-16" range, generally preferring 13-15. I don't consider wallboard, or plywood things I really want my bullets shooting through. I look at Bare Gelatin and Clothed gelatin numbers. You also might consider looking at the Devel bullet, which isn't out yet in handgun cartridges:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number2/article422.htm

The Hornady XTP 147gr 9mm at 918 fps according to the FBI in 1991 gets 22.1" of penetration in bare gel and 20.50" penetration in clothed Gel. Expanding to .44 and .46 respectively.

-Morgan
 
I like my G-26, and my model 36 chiefs special, it seems to me from my own testing that in the 36 158gr LSWC give the best penetration, better than the federal hydra shoks I've been carrying.
Click to expand...
You stated some of the problems right there. You can't expect those short barrel guns to have the same velocity as their larger brothers and sisters.
 
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