Hollow point Bullets a Waste of Money

[Johnny Guest]

Let's throw in a couple of other considerations - - -

Round nose bullets, jacketed or lead, tend to push into and separate tissues as they traverse them. Bullets with very blunt or flat noses do a certain amount of cutting on their way. The full wadcutter is best for this, at close range, and semi-wadcutter is quite good, especially at intermediate and long ranges. Why is this important? The round nose bullet, if barely touching bone or a large blood vessel (which is very elastic) may just shove it aside or be iself redirected. Bullet with sharp shoulder or flat meplat digs in and either cuts the vessel or chips the bone, possibly tumbling as it goes, repending of thickness of bone and remaining velocity of the bullet.

If a hollow point bullet's cavity clogs up with clothing or fur, it is STILL a flat point bullet, compared to the RN.

Another consideration is what happens to the bullet which misses- - - The HP has a better chance of digging into pavement or foliage or a building and either stopping or losing its shape, and so be greatly limited in the distance it travels. A round nose bullet, especially an FMJ, can bounce like a billiard ball from hard surfaces.

Drakejake - - Actually, there are some loads which WILL expand from a snub nose revolver. Both the Remington and Winchester .38 Spl +P 158 gr. Lead Semiwadcutter Hollow Point will deform and make a good start at expanding from a 2" revolver. The Federal NyClad 125 gr. LSWC will do likewise.

At least two of the 125 gr. .357 JHP loads, Federal and Speer Gold Dot, will expand from the 2-1/8 and 2-1/2 inch revolvers. I can't speak to the 9 mm 115 JHP from the J-frame snubs, but I'd be surprised if they didn't expand.

I'm a big fan of the .45 myself, but there ARE other loads which work.


Best,
Johnny

 

[Tamara]

50% of the time they make a slightly bigger hole than fmj.

You need to buy better hollowpoints. Even if they do expand only 50% of the time, that's a lot better expansion track record than FMJ.

Over penetration once you hit the bad guy is not a real concern.

Easy to say, until it happens. The idea that I am reponsible for the final resting place of every round I shoot is somewhat important to me.

Missing is a greater danger to innocent bystanders than over penetration.

I train to avoid that, too; see above.

Hollow points have several disadvantages:

UNDER penetration especially on a moving badguy (you hit his arm or side and the expanding bullet slows enough so no vitals are touched.

There are many quality hollowpoints on the market right now that penetrate 9-12 inches or more, reliably, and expand even after defeating heavy clothing. Barrier protocols have really changed the nature of the beast

Lesser feed reliability on semi autos than FMJ.

Not in most quality modern autos. Even my 1911 is very tolerant of JHP's. Just test the round you plan on using in the pistol you plan on carrying.

High cost of practicing with the defense ammo you shoot, leads you to practice with other ammo.

As long as it's the same weight and muzzle velocity, so what?

The tendency to carry the same rounds in you gun for a long period of time, leading to rechambering and possible setback.

Keep track of the round you chamber. Avoid rechambering it. If you do, measure it first for OAL/setback. Shoot off at least one magazine of your carry load every few range visits and replace it with fresh rounds. Then again, some folks couldn't tell you how much air was in their car tires to the nearest 20psi...

Yep a logical comparison of FMJ and hollowpoints leads me to conclude that FMJ is better.

It led me someplace different.

Shot placement is the real key, and sufficient penetration on a moving target to impact vital organs

That is quite true.

 

[buzz_knox]

Anyone who thinks overpenetration isn't a concern needs to take a few minutes and examine the experience of the NYPD. They went to hollowpoints to reduce overpenetration after they had several people injured and/or killed due to overpenetration of suspects.

 

[WESHOOT2]

$.02 of INFORMED OPINION

I will continue to recommend, carry, and have my wife carry HP defense loads.

For more than one reason I suggest that correct HP rounds deliver the highest POSSIBLE level of that nebulous thing we label "Stopping Power".

In my experience handgun power is enhanced with correct ammo; your results may vary.

This is not the 'lemming' approach, but a carefully researched and reasoned study of terminal ballistics regarding handgun stopping power.
It's my job.
No one is required to agree with me, or to consider my opinion as more valid than theirs. But if one thinks that HP bullets aren't worth the extra expense perhaps that person needs to conduct more experiments, with better ammo.

As for cost, frankly, who cares? And constant rechambering? Stop, please. Feed reliability? What quality gun (that I would carry) won't feed good ammo?

True, shot placement is still critical, but DVC is what defensive shooting is about.

 

[Aahzz]

I'm gonna stick with HP's. Why? As has been said, it may plug, and effectively become a FMJ, but even then it's as good as the FMJ, and has the potential to be better. The only thing I might switch to is the new EFMJ, but I haven't decided yet.....

 

[BigG]

From MasterBlaster's original post:

Missing is a greater danger to innocent bystanders than over penetration.

I think that this is a very insightful and under-discussed element of defensive handgun shooting. Of all these threads I've seen about HP v. FMJ everybody bemoans overpenetration. On the other hand, I guess they assume good marksmanship on the part of the shooter?


Whenever we discuss "stopping power" based on any "statistics" we can come up with, we have no control over if the shooter hit the target solidly or not. In fact, he may have missed a half dozen times before scoring his "hit."

Judging from the people that I know that carry a gun for a living but are not "gun people" I would think the wild shot would be at least as common as the overpenetration issue. Waddaya think?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

"Noted Texas pathologist Vincent DiMaio MD in his seminal work "GUNSHOT WOUNDS" points out some of the mythology surrounding hollowpoint bullets. Dr. DiMaio has performed tens of thousands of autopsies and learned forensics at his father's side. His father was the chief pathologist for NYC for many years. I daresay Dr. DiMaio has more experience doing autopsies than Marshall and Sanow" - Post by Fraser

Let's see, if DiMaio actually performed just 10,000 complete autopsies (as opposed to 10s of thousands reported), that would mean that he did one complete autopsy every day of the year for 27 years and three months.

According to the U. of Iowa folks,

http://www.medicine.uiowa.edu/Path_Handbook/Appendix/AnatomicPath/AUTOPSY.HTML

an uncomplicated autopsy takes 30-45days included appropriate tests, complicated autopsies taking longer. So assuming one a day, everyday, Di Maio has 30-45 working cases at any one time. Obviously a very busy man.

Fraser failed to mention any stats on how many hollowpoint-related autopsies were performed versus FMJ versus unjacketed ball versus semiwadcutter, versus wadcutter. Plus, as the ME for NYC, Fraser did a lot of work on non-gun related deaths. How many of the 10s of thousands were gun-related and how many weren't?

Di Maio is a noted physician with a long career. However, whether he had actually performed 10s of thousands of autopsies by the time his 1991 book was printed, or simply signed off on many autopsies as Chief ME for NYC is not presented by Fraser. Fraser threw out a big number, 10s of thousands, as a means to show DiMaio was more qualified than M&S, and he may be, but the 10s of thousands statement probably is not all that relevant because he probably has not actually performed 10s of thousands of gun shot case autopsies himself.

Data manipulation can be your friend or your enemy.

 

[jtduncan]

Quite simple if you're a hunter.

Hollowpoint inflict much more tissue damage on humans. and for self defense, we want massive trauma for shock.

That's why!!!!

Now on an elk or a 300 pound hog, a FMJ or flatpoint or SWC configuration for maximum penetration and blowout through the body complete.

But humans have thin skin usually and only a leather jacket with several layers of clothes is going to clog up that HP.

I'm keeping my Gold Dots, Sabres, and Hydrashoks.

Send those weak HPs to me at . . . .

 

[ArmySon]

Even if a hollowpoint expands only 50% of the time, that's far better than the ratio of FMJ

Over-penetration isn't an issue? I know of several good lawyers. God forbid you ever need an attorney's assistance, feel free to email me for their numbers once a FMJ hits an innocent bystander.

There's so much more involved than the bullet being fired from the gun and hitting (missing) the target i.e. cavitation, tumbling effect, shock, etc.

Sorry but your 'research' is very flawed.

 

[GSB]

The only thing I might switch to is the new EFMJ

Yeah, that thing looks impressive.

One caveat I would give regarding hollowpoints, and Lawdog pointed this out: not all HPs are created equal. There's a definite qualitative difference between, say, Federal Hydrashok and hollowpoints from the 70s.

In any event, handguns are at best marginal weapons in terms of stopping power. I suspect that the many variables of any individual shooting incident matter as much as the bullet type (clothing, angle of the shot, etc).

 

[Drundel]

One thing I think you are missing when thinking about under penetration is that you have more than 1 shot (hopefully).

So lets say one HP hits the arm bone, you have 5 or 6 or 15 more rounds. Empty the gun until you have stopped your aggresser.

Another point you are forgetting, some of the HP blow up on impact, Cor-Bon, and I like the fact that I might not have an exit hole but the bad guy now has 20 or so pieces of metal in him PER round.

For those of you who mentioned hp in deer rifles, apple and oranges. 180 grain SilverTip at 2900 FPS and a 165 gold-dot at 1000 FPS are two different sports. Find some gel and see what happens.

 

[CaesarI]

Drake Jake: As was stated before, slow moving bullets (say a 850fps 230gr .45) can, and do expand. Same goes for 147gr 9mm's. Bullet expansion is based more on DESIGN, than velocity. Though it is true that you will get different results from short barrels, if the velocity difference is great enough.

Master Blaster: Visit www.FirearmsTactical.com Hey man I'm with you on the penetration issue, and over-penetration being made to sound like too big a deal, but they do make Hollowpoint bullets that expand AND get enough penetration. The 50% figure is OLD data, based on OLD designs. Newer designs have a higher rate of expansion in REAL shootings. SOME hollowpoints have trouble with cloth, and wallboard, and turn into FMJ's, others (the well designed ones), do not. That is why the FBI TESTS them.

Yes, the one significant advantage to a HP is that it has a smaller chance of double penetrating. They are also more efficient at destroying tissue (even if they don't expand) than RN, bullets, which tend to destroy LESS tissue than their diameter (i.e. a 9mm FMJ leaves a 7mm hole).

The disadvantages, however are eithrer solveable, or non-existant. Under-Penetration: get a better bullet design with a heavier weight.
Feed Reliability: in what gun?
Practie Ammo: Practice same weight, same velocity, and you'll do fine.
Bullet Setback: this problem doesn't exist in FMJ's why? Cause you shoot them in practice? Do the same with your HP's.

Shot placement still matters, but a well tested, and designed HP (or the EFMJ) is still valuable even if it means a lot less.


-Morgan

 

[Fraser]

The autopsies I've seen have taken only a few hours. Its amazing how fast an experienced pathologist can work. Much of the prework is done by the morgue attendant, leaving the pathologist time to put his skills at work. Afterwards, the morgue attendant puts everything back in, not necessarily from whence they came.

Some autopsies can be very quickly done, like an older person who dies at home unattended, maybe being treated by another physician for a heart or BP problem. Just enough time to rule out homicide. And some autopsies take longer.

In the big city, I would estimate that a pathologist could perform 700 or so autopsies a year - maybe a thousand. Times 30 years and the result is over 20,000-30,000.

At one time NYC was experiencing 1,000+ murders a year, all of which required an autopsy. Maybe 500-800 DOA from GSW.

The bloodwork, etc. may take some more time - even weeks - but the pathologist isn't sitting at his desk awaiting results.... he is out there doing more autopsies. It doesn't take long to determine what damage a bullet has done to organs. An experienced hunter can readily determine what damage his bullet has done to a deer or elk.

As the chief, DeMaio would have access to the autopsy write-ups.

I ask the police recruits - how long did you spend in the morgue during training watching an autopsy being done. A few hours at most all I imagine. (Then they took you out for a pizza, right?)

DeMaio is in his 60's. He's had the time to perform 10's of thousands of autopsies in 30+ years of practice.

DeMaio makes no mention of the results obtained from hollowpoints of the same weight as FMJ's.

Then again, I've seen a guy in the ER waiting room walk around with 3 9MM JHP slugs in his chest. Didn't penetrate enough to slow him down. A FMJ round or 2 may have had a much different effect on his mobility.

 

[lonegunman]

A pathologist is a HORRIBLE person to assess the effects of FMJs v. Hollowpoint.

The pathologist says he cant tell the difference in wounds or injuries caused by FMJ and JHPs, and this may be true for the patients he is studying. His patients are all DEAD. They all sustained lethal injuries. All he has proven is that a lethal wound is a lethal wound, whether it was made by a JHP or FMJ.

I lost count of the number of gunshot patients I have operated on in the last 10 yrs. Sometimes its hard to tell if it was a JHP or a FMJ, and sometimes its hard to tell the caliber involved. But not always. I firmly believe large caliber wounds, and those made by hollowpoints are more difficult to repair, and less likely to be survivable.

It is not so important whether a pathologist (or surgeon) thinks there is no difference in FMJs or JHPs.

When one shoots someone in self defense, the shooter is really trying to modify the behaviour of the person shot, and not necessarily kill him. Rapid incapacitation, either physiological or psycological, is the goal. I think JHPs will more rapidly incapacitate people by causing more blood loss, tissue destruction, and to some degree energy transfer, ASSUMING adequate penetration can be acheived.

 

[355sigfan]

If you use a good hollow point in a fast caliber or use faster loads in a given caliber the expansion rate is well into the 90% range in the field. The hole is much bigger as is the stretch cavity. Would you rather get hit with a .45 or a .75 caliber bullet duh.
Ball ammo is only for practice. No educated person would carry that load. If your gun will only feed ball its time for a new gun.
PAT

 

[Zak Smith]

Dogma ?

355sigfan - You do not necessarily need "fast bullets" to get expansion. You just need to be using a bullet that is designed to expand at the right rate at the terminal velocities you expect to have.

This is why good .45ACP hollowpoints travelling under 900 fps expand to over 0.60" (e.g.: Rem. Golden Saber 230gr).

A bullet designed to expand at 1100 fps will likely not expand properly if it impacts at 800 fps.

Likewise, a bullet designed to expand at 800 fps will likely not achieve the desired penetration if it impacts at 1100 fps.

By the way, do you have a cite for the link between temporary cavity and stopping power?

-z

 

[Master Blaster]

OK I knew this would be controversial and excite a lot of heated opinions.

ArmySon, I suspect that if I shot someone in self defense I will need a lawyer anyway. I doubt that the reason will be because the bullet I shot went through the perp and hit someone else.

How many documented cases are there of this happening?

Last year the philadelphia police struggled with an unarmed felon. who stole a police car after he had been shot and hit in the torso 6 times. Thats right they dug 6, 9 mm federal hydrashoks +p out of him, and guess what none of them hit a vital organ. His fat body expanded the hollow points perfectly and they slowed and did not hit a vital organ.

The perp walked away in cuffs, many minutes after being hit 6 times and getting a beating by the police ( the beating made the national news remember seeing the officers kicking him when he was down on the ground?)

He was wearing a t shirt when he was shot. He was about 6'3 and 275 lbs. So his fat stopped the hollowpoints which expanded and did little real damage. Heck he hardly lost any blood cause those hollow points worked so well.

The police fired 51 shots out of their glocks. The big problem was the other 45 bullets which went through cars, windows, walls, and doors in the residential neighborhood where the shoot out took place.

If the police had FMJs the perp MIGHThave been stopped by the dual holes and better penetration into his vital organs, before he stole the police car and led them on the second chase.

My reasearch is annecdotal because thats all the information there is out there, annecdotal information. Geletan is not a human being Geletan has no bones no muscle, and it does not move when being shot.

Yes I agree a good gun at the range under ideal conditions will feed hollowpoints reliably every time. In a struggle with a 300 lb perp at contact distance they may not feed as reliably as FMJ.

YMMV

 

[Master Blaster]

Here is the story from yesterday's inquirer, at the time of the shooting there were 51 9mm casings found, here they say 46 shots, and 5 hits

No charges in police beating

A grand jury said the force was justified


Thomas Jones was kicked and beaten during his arrest on July 12, 2000. The beating was caught on videotape. (AP)
Related Links



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Jones said police set him up to be shot
Grand Jury Recommendations
Video Report from 6ABC
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By Jacqueline Soteropoulos
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER
The 14 Philadelphia police officers videotaped dragging Thomas Jones out of a stolen police car and beating and kicking the wounded carjacking suspect used less force than they were legally entitled to use and should not be prosecuted, a grand jury decided in a report unsealed yesterday.

In fact, the grand jury wrote, officers would have been justified in using deadly force to apprehend Jones on July 12, 2000, at 26th and Oxford Streets.

At that point, police incorrectly believed Jones - who had led them on a wild high-speed chase through residential sections of North Philadelphia - had shot an officer. Jones continued to violently resist arrest, even after being surrounded, according to the grand jury's unanimous report.

Victoria Bryant Jones, whom Jones married in a courtroom ceremony in December, said she was disappointed but not surprised that the officers will not face criminal charges.

"Why can't they be charged for attempted murder or recklessly endangering another person? Why? Because they're wearing a badge. They're in the system," she said. "They're all together."

Richard Costello, president of the Philadelphia Fraternal Order of Police, praised the grand jury's review and said it "totally exonerated" the officers.

"The grand jury found that six seconds of videotape was not the truth and, in fact, distorted the truth," Costello said.

An Inquirer frame-by-frame analysis of 28 seconds of the arrest indicated that Jones was kicked and hit at least 59 times, including a blow that came when an officer slammed the North Philadelphia man on the shin with a police radio.

The grand jury's decision - which also includes eight recommendations to the Police Department - does not end the controversy over the violent arrest. FBI spokeswoman Linda Vizi said the agency is continuing to monitor the case. Police Commissioner John F. Timoney said the 14 officers still face an internal police investigation and possible disciplinary action. And Jones' attorney, Frederico Sayre of Newport Beach, Calif., said he is planning to file a multimillion-dollar federal civil-rights lawsuit next month.

A videotape excerpt of the struggle, which the grand jury agreed was shocking on initial review, was broadcast on TV around the world and brought unwelcome attention to the city on the eve of the Republican National Convention.

The grand jury watched the full video - which was captured by a helicopter TV news crew - more than 100 times, synchronized with the police radio tape, to analyze every movement of each officer. In 10 months of investigation, the panel heard testimony from more than 70 witnesses.

The grand jury's 191-page report concluded that the officers were justified in hitting and kicking Jones - who by that time had sustained four or five gunshot wounds in the arm and abdomen - because he resisted being handcuffed.

Also, the report noted, the officers testified that they feared Jones might grab for one of their weapons or a gun they incorrectly believed he was carrying in his waistband.

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The grand jury report was most critical of the police gunfire at 17th and Francis Streets, where the pursuit began after Jones was spotted driving a stolen car. He was pulled over but broke free as he was being arrested.

Ten officers fired a total of 46 shots on a residential street, including eight shots as Jones, who was high on crack cocaine that morning, sped away in Officer Cedric Gaines' police car. Also wounded was Officer Michael Livewell, who was shot in the thumb by Gaines.

"Some of the shots may not have been necessary, and could have had unintended and disastrous consequences to civilians as well as other officers who were in each other's line of fire," the grand jury wrote.
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Grand jurors also stated they did not believe much of Jones' testimony to them.

Jones, 31, said he was unconscious for much of the beating and could not remember whether he resisted arrest. He also claimed that after the taped beating, officers put him beneath a tree and resumed kicking him, according to the grand jury report.

"We find that Thomas Jones' financial interest in the outcome of his planned civil suit against the city regarding his arrest influenced the substance of his testimony before us," the grand jury wrote.

Local NAACP president J. Whyatt Mondesire said he was dismayed, but not surprised, by the grand jury's report.

"Police violence will never be met with the full force of the criminal justice system," Mondesire said. "It's impossible as long as Lynne Abraham is district attorney. You're never going to get justice."

Mondesire, a longtime critic of Abraham's, said she led the grand jury to its decisions.

Victoria Bryant Jones agreed: "The main problem in that whole system is District Attorney Lynne Abraham. She keeps covering for everybody. She covers up for the police every time they do something."

Bryant Jones said she hopes for justice in the federal courts.

Abraham said her critics were motivated by politics.

"I think a fair review of this office indicates that we have arrested officers for murder. We have arrested officers for corruption. We have arrested and prosecuted officers for shaking down drug dealers. We have arrested and prosecuted officers for killing their wives. We have arrested and prosecuted officers for using excessive force on duty," she said.

In its recommendations to the Police Department yesterday, the grand jury indicated that officers needed better training and supervision in pursuits, defensive tactics, and use of deadly force.

Grand jurors also recommended improvements to police radio communications, an upgrade of police helicopter camera gear, and more frequent use of the police aviation unit.

"They seem like very thoughtful recommendations," Timoney said, promising to put together a team to review the findings.

The 14 officers targeted by the grand jury's investigation were Robert Billips, Leonard Boston, Christopher Fischer, Acie Frames, Darryl Gregory, James Henninger, Paul Langford, Charles Marable, Christopher McCue, Ricardo Moreno, Andrew Schafer, Christopher Stever, Stacy Tribble-Ramirez and Robert Weber.

All have been assigned to desk duty since Jones' arrest.

"They've all been taken off the street," Costello said. "Some of them are fairly bitter because they feel they've been punished already."

In June, Jones was sentenced to 18 to 37 years in prison for a 12-day carjacking and robbery spree last summer.



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[MK11]

While browsing through the latest "Soldier of Fortune" (until I came across yet another of their nauseating Timothy McViegh articles), I saw an article about a man who used a .44 magnum Ruger to fend off several hitchhikers who were intent on killing him. Apparently, he shot one with a solid hunting load, which punched right through the man and lodged in the wall. The guy turned and ran like nothing happened.

Penetration is great if you hit a vital organ. Doesn't mean much if you don't.

 

[355sigfan]

For every stroy of a jhp not working there are 10 with ball not working. I knew a good cop who died because 45 ball did not do the job with 4 rounds. Ball is not a good round. It does not work that well it has limited stopping power as studies have shown.
PAT