High end 1911s worth the cost?
- Thread starter Alpena
- Start date
It looks like something that could have been created by Salvadore Dali.I always thought it was extremely goofy for people to want to redefine industry standard terms. I also think some people get a little confused about the relationship of quality to price in regards to these terms.
If you think about it what is more "custom" someone with the knowledge and drive to invest and tool up in order to make most of the parts that go into a 1911 or someone that just picks up a Brownells catalog and orders all the parts. Not trying to be argumentative just something to discuss. I've owned or shot most of them and sometimes it's very hard to tell if you're getting your monies worth out of a $5K 1911 over one that costs $2k.
I don't quiet understand are you calling me goofy? LOL
I think that many of the best smiths who make true custom guns have their own parts. They have developed them and fine tuned them to work with their take on the 1911 but I do not think that the gun is custom if you are for example limited to only Ed Brown parts in a certain configuration. I am sorry but I simply do not consider a Ed Brown Kobra a "custom gun". You did not get to customize it. Ed Brown did and he will sell the exact same gun multiple times every year. YMMV and I can understand that. I am not knocking Ed Brown guns in anyway but I am not sure they are "Custom" as they state on the frame.
I also believe that a master gun smith does not have to tool up and make all his or her own parts in order to be a custom gun maker. I can think of many people who are members of the American Pistolsmith Guild and are masters at building 1911s and masters at their craft who do not make all of their own 1911 parts. I like guys like Don Williams who does a little bit of both. He has some custom parts which he produces but is familiar with other peoples parts and is more than willing to use them for you to build a "custom" pistol.
I do agree that price does not equal quality after a certain price point. The law of demising returns get pretty extreme at the top. I also tend to agree that over the $2000 mark you are hard press to be able to shoot the difference between a $2000 and $5000 gun but I am not that good a shot.
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stephen426
New member
You mentioned that this is going to be a range gun and a carry gun. I am not sure what your financial position is, but spending the extras on a carry gun is not really "worth it" in my opinion. A carry gun will get holster wear and the finish will mar even with careful handling.
In terms of reliability, there are many highly reliable guns way under your $3500 price point. Glocks are the "plastic fantastic" Honda Accords of the gun world. They aren't very pretty to look at and they may not be as accurate as the high end 1911s. Then again, you won't feel to bad if you ding it a little.
A high 1911 is like a high end watch or a high end car. They doing the same thing as lower priced variants, but somewhat better and have more "prestige". I bought a pre-owned Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special that was hard chromed from a gun show. That is easily one of my best shooting guns out there and it was designed to be carried. I don't carry it because it is too big and too heavy so it is my range gun.
Unless the "prestige" of owning a $3500 gun really matters to you, I would buy a Les Baer in the $2000 range, a Glock or H&K for concealed carry, and a bunch of ammo.
I have come to the realization that a "collector's piece" that you don't intend to use or sell is really just tying up money for nothing. It takes up space and you don't get to enjoy it. It is like having a Ferrari sitting in the driveway and not driving it because you don't want to put miles on it or risk damaging it. I shoot all of my guns with the exception of my Sig P210 50th Anniversary edition. I ended up buying a pre-owned Sig P210 to shoot. With the prices of the original Sig P210s going up the way they are, I will probably sell it and buy a Sig P210 Legend (in silver!
). It all comes down to your financial means and your desires. There is no one answer for your question.
In terms of reliability, there are many highly reliable guns way under your $3500 price point. Glocks are the "plastic fantastic" Honda Accords of the gun world. They aren't very pretty to look at and they may not be as accurate as the high end 1911s. Then again, you won't feel to bad if you ding it a little.
A high 1911 is like a high end watch or a high end car. They doing the same thing as lower priced variants, but somewhat better and have more "prestige". I bought a pre-owned Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special that was hard chromed from a gun show. That is easily one of my best shooting guns out there and it was designed to be carried. I don't carry it because it is too big and too heavy so it is my range gun.
Unless the "prestige" of owning a $3500 gun really matters to you, I would buy a Les Baer in the $2000 range, a Glock or H&K for concealed carry, and a bunch of ammo.
I have come to the realization that a "collector's piece" that you don't intend to use or sell is really just tying up money for nothing. It takes up space and you don't get to enjoy it. It is like having a Ferrari sitting in the driveway and not driving it because you don't want to put miles on it or risk damaging it. I shoot all of my guns with the exception of my Sig P210 50th Anniversary edition. I ended up buying a pre-owned Sig P210 to shoot. With the prices of the original Sig P210s going up the way they are, I will probably sell it and buy a Sig P210 Legend (in silver!
). It all comes down to your financial means and your desires. There is no one answer for your question.
That's not quite accurate. I special ordered a Brown which included non-standard front and rear sights -- a Novak gold bead front sight and a 10-8 rear with .140" notch. I also had the barrel crown cut and the rear of the slide serrated, neither of which are standard. I know he has installed triggers from other manufacturers on guns. He has his limits, though, so he's not a true "custom" smith. "Semi-custom" may be a more correct term.
I was referring to the off the shelf Kobras. He does do some customization which I believe I already acknowledged. Ed's shop does a lot more customization then say Les Baer but not as much as Wilson. I agree that semi-custom is a great description. Most shops have some level of constraints within you have to work.
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First, thanks for the unsolicited compliments on my guns, I'll send the gunsmith a link to this thread. He is not a custom 1911 house, he does everything - repairs on anything, custom work on pistols, revolvers, rifles, shotguns, you name it - he is a whiz at long range (1000yd) rifles. He'll really appreciate that you guys like his work.
Now....
Also, like it or not, cost does not necessarily determine the level of "custom". There are plenty of 'smiths out there that will build you a gun using your donor piece to your specs for less than you'll spend for an off the shelf "semi-custom", my guns are good examples. The gunsmith I use knows me, he's done a lot of work for me, he knows how I use my guns. When I talked to him about building my Super I gave him a few specifics that were "must haves" and also gave him a general idea of what I wanted the gun to be. I didn't specify how many lines per inch for the checkering, or ask for the serrations on the rear of the slide, I chose to let him create a gun for me, incorporating my wants and needs with his artistry and knowledge of my particular style.
I posted this on another forum in a similar thread - high end production vs custom - take it for what it's worth, it's just my perspective on the subject.
Hey Skans!! This is for you, it's one of my favorite pics of that gun-
Now....
I agree with this statement 100%. But it challenges the the custom vs high end production/"semi"-custom question and that's a tough one, because when you drop three or four grand (or more) on a 1911 you really want it to be an exclusive one of kind piece, more than just "it's expensive so there's only a few of them". But, if you're buying out of the Nighthawk or Brown or Wilson or whomever's catalog you're not getting a custom gun. You might get to choose sights or finish or grips, etc but it's not built to your specs, to fulfill your particular needs. I can call them tomorrow and order exactly the same gun and Bob next door can get one, too, and so can Jim at the barbershop. That doesn't mean that they're not worth the money, Mercedes are worth the premium over Chevrolets, no denying that. But does the Mercedes off the showroom floor have as much value to you as the Chevrolet (or any brand) that is custom built into exactly the car you want? That is the custom vs high end production dilemma.
Also, like it or not, cost does not necessarily determine the level of "custom". There are plenty of 'smiths out there that will build you a gun using your donor piece to your specs for less than you'll spend for an off the shelf "semi-custom", my guns are good examples. The gunsmith I use knows me, he's done a lot of work for me, he knows how I use my guns. When I talked to him about building my Super I gave him a few specifics that were "must haves" and also gave him a general idea of what I wanted the gun to be. I didn't specify how many lines per inch for the checkering, or ask for the serrations on the rear of the slide, I chose to let him create a gun for me, incorporating my wants and needs with his artistry and knowledge of my particular style.
I posted this on another forum in a similar thread - high end production vs custom - take it for what it's worth, it's just my perspective on the subject.
Hey Skans!! This is for you, it's one of my favorite pics of that gun-
orionengnr
New member
Freudian slip?
Yeah, I've owned a Dan Wesson 1911 for 4-5 years now, and I have been reading for years about how great they are.
I'm not impressed. I own Kimbers that are better 1911s...equal or better in quality, more reliable.
I also own a Les Baer, bought used, that cost less than the DW. Now that was a buy.
Dragline45
New member
Personally IMO unless you are shooting competitively I would say no. In some cases these high end 1911's aren't the best choice for defensive guns. Alot of high end 1911's have tighter tolerances which are great for accuracy but can suffer in reliability if they get a bit dirty, and some may not feed HP's as well as even some of their cheaper counterparts. There is a reason milspec guns have looser tolerances than some other guns on the market, and that's for reliabilities sake.
To the OP Alpena, I went with Guncrafter Industries, but I certainly could easily have chosen NIGHTHAWK instead.
-Find a NIGHTHAWK model which is as close to what you want and call them with any modifications you will specifically want. If they already have a model with those mods, but just didn't see it on their website, they'll let you know.
-Once you do decide, things will be put into writing/contract/order form. Likely, a deposit will be needed, if not paying full price, up front.
-Find out what the lead time is. Depending on business, some companies could take much, much longer than others. I'm hearing Springfield is over a year; I'm hearing some custom builders not taking any orders indefinitely; my Guncrafter was in the 4 month range when ordered in 2011.
-If you're starting to get overwhelmed, start with this Nighthawk model:
http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/pistols/war-hawk-series/war-hawk-recon-8/war-hawk-recon.html?___SID=U
This model has many features. Start adding or deleting what you want/don't want and then surf Nighthawk's website to see if there's something closer to what you'd want. Is it worth $4000? I suppose I'd pay it if it was really what I'd want. I surely would shoot more than $4000 worth of ammo through it. That's only ~8000 rounds worth.
Now, once you've ordered your gun or received your gun, you may have some "buyer's remorse" or regrets. Don't worry, you'll still have a fantastic gun. You can now start planning your next one which might address some of those remorseful regrets on this first one!
-Find a NIGHTHAWK model which is as close to what you want and call them with any modifications you will specifically want. If they already have a model with those mods, but just didn't see it on their website, they'll let you know.
-Once you do decide, things will be put into writing/contract/order form. Likely, a deposit will be needed, if not paying full price, up front.
-Find out what the lead time is. Depending on business, some companies could take much, much longer than others. I'm hearing Springfield is over a year; I'm hearing some custom builders not taking any orders indefinitely; my Guncrafter was in the 4 month range when ordered in 2011.
-If you're starting to get overwhelmed, start with this Nighthawk model:
http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/pistols/war-hawk-series/war-hawk-recon-8/war-hawk-recon.html?___SID=U
This model has many features. Start adding or deleting what you want/don't want and then surf Nighthawk's website to see if there's something closer to what you'd want. Is it worth $4000? I suppose I'd pay it if it was really what I'd want. I surely would shoot more than $4000 worth of ammo through it. That's only ~8000 rounds worth.
Now, once you've ordered your gun or received your gun, you may have some "buyer's remorse" or regrets. Don't worry, you'll still have a fantastic gun. You can now start planning your next one which might address some of those remorseful regrets on this first one!
I try to catch all of swype's bad guesses, but I'm not 100%. I wish there was a setting to just take verbatim what I swyped in. But there are true ambiguities.
Just saying everyone's life is worth a $3500 insurance policy is all. Is it better than a $600 Glock? For some yes, for some no. Some don't like or aren't comfortable with 1911's period. Whatever gives you the most confidence is the one to go with. If its a tie then go with your wallet. Or go with your heart. As Jon Voight said in the movie Heat "It's a free country, brother."
By "drive by statement" I mean that you take a small part of what was written by someone else and make a comment without and clarification and have a "negative" tone to it.
Compare your post to KyJim's which also disagrees with the idea that a Ed Brown is not a custom or semi-custom gun but unlike you he gives some clarification and justification for that believe. This is very helpful because it allows for further discussion. Your first use of the "goofy" remark had some context but not directly about the "goofy" comment.
Well anyway back on topic:
I would ask you to look at what I posted and maybe I was not clear enough. There are guns which are clearly production guns. Colt, Dan Wesson, & SA. These guys all have custom shops but IMHO they are all still production guns.
Then there are guys like Les Baer, Ed Brown, Guncrafters, Wilson etc... who build guns in a small production line setup. They have a set lineup of models which can be bought directly from them or from their distribution network, guns like the Les Baer TRS or ED Brown Kobra. I called these semi-custom in my first post in this thread. I said that people mistakenly call them custom.
So your characterization of what I stated is not correct. I stated that they are not "custom" guns. They are small line production guns which allow for limited customization and I therefore referred to them as semi-custom. Nothing goofy about that.
I do not consider and off the shelf Ed Brown like this one a custom gun. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=464527999 It can be argued it is not even a semi-custom gun but I am not doing that. I would call it semi-custom because although it is a stock configuration the attention to detail, quality of materials and the gun itself is close if not equal to a full house custom.
However nothing about it is "custom". To me "custom" = "custom made" which is defined as Made according to the specifications of an individual purchaser. This gun will be bought by someone and they will love it but it was not built to their spec. They were not part of the specification process. It is very different then what WC145 was describing. This is why I stated what I did. These are semi-custom guns not custom. If you jump over to the louder than words forum and look in their custom pistol section you will not find these semi-custom guns being discussed. Most of the contributors there are master craftsman in the 1911 world.
I hope that clarifies my statements. This in no way diminishes the quality of a Ed Brown Kobra or a Les Baer TRS. The TRS I own is still the best 1911 in the stable. It outshoots everyone who has ever shot it, especially me. I have yet to put it into someones hands and have them tell me it cannot keep up. I think the guys like Les, Ed Brown, Wilson, Nighthawk are all marketing their off the shelf guns as as good as custom at a lower than custom price. They have built some economy of scale and some degree of production line assembly into the system to bring down costs. This allows them to deliver custom like quality at a lower price then say a guy like Yost or Burton. There is IMHO more value in these guns because of the price point they are able to obtain.
Here is a cool video on Les Baer that shows the process of how they build a Baer "semi-custom" 1911.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpdy8QQ-Y-Q
Spats McGee
Administrator
Please do. I don't know who he is, but it's pretty uncommon for a picture of a gun to really make me go "Wow." But the ones we've seen here have been nothing short of spectacular.WC145 said:
To be honest, I like it better with these grips than the others. She's just gorgeous! If I were looking to have a melt job done on a 1911, I'd be bugging you for your smith's name.WC145 said:Hey Skans!! This is for you, it's one of my favorite pics of that gun-