Hi-quality ARs sure seem "sold out" a lot!

I understand quality differences. I bought from high quality makers to build a Frankengun. I'll put an AGP lower against anyones, or an LAR Grizzly upper. Just because one was on fire sale introductory pricing, and the other a Blem with scratches over the port door hasn't affected things on bit. The price was excellent.

That's the problem with pricing, normally those two parts combined would have cost another $150. Using price alone to categorize things can be done in general, but there are specific makers who choose to build in volume and price retail for more sales - meaning you get more quality for less money.

The example given is actually part of the problem, if you are shopping for transportation, the F250 3/4 ton truck with gas hog 10 MPG 460 CID may NOT be the best choice. It's the same price to stimulate sales, not an indication it's "higher quality." That's exactly the problem gun buyers have - buying on price, not specifying what the gun needs to do and then buying the best value in that configuration.

Just because someone is dumping a misfit .458 SOCOM upper doesn't make it a great choice for prairie dog hunting. This is the downside of using price as a guideline.

That's why professionals in the buying business stick to specifications - and why we have milspec at all. It makes the end price a comparison of two products that are closely equal, not disparate opposites. If you watched the Civil War reruns on PBS, government contractors are notorious cheaters, and when asked why boot soles wore out so quickly, one seller replied, "they were meant for the Cavalry."

Instead of focusing on price and getting whatever in a bangstick, focus on specifications. You can get $79 barrels for the AR, or you can spend $289. The first comes as a non-milspec unchromed carbon steel barrel, M203 cuts and military profile, in 5.56. The second is medium contour, 5 land and groove semi poly rifling, nitrided, in 6.8SPC, with bolt, cam pin, and firing pin. Apples and Oranges, price has nothing to do with it. Compare each barrel with it's competition on specs, being equal, then price can be considered - not before.

That's why if you're buyng a used Neon for your teen to commute to school in, the F250 isn't so comparable - even if cheaper. And that doesn't even begin to account for running costs, insurance and repairs, which for guns would be ammo prices, a range to shoot at, and whether you can hunt with it. If it's not a legal hunting caliber, ammo is premium, and you have no place to practice it's best application, it's a safe queen, not a working firearm. At that point, the quality is simply a non tangible reselling asset. It hasn't been proven to actually exist, it's speculative.
 
My comparison of the Fully loaded F-250 with the 460 compared to the standard F-250 with a 351 was to illustrate that many times you can get more, even more than you "Need", for the same price as what you do need. I.e. A basic F-250, no frills, and a basic 351 engine is all I need. Sometimes, you can find an F-250, fully loaded, trailer package, lift kit, tow package, etc... with a 460 engine, for the same exact price. I mentioned that "Gas mileage not counting because it's just an example", that it would make more sense to get the fully loaded F-250, even if you didn't need all the extras.

Same with the AR. You can buy based on Mil-Spec / TDP if you want. I personally don't need a lot of what the Mil-Spec provides. I spent 21 years in the military, and worked at CATM, so I understand what is in the Mil-Spec and why. We don't have Mil-Spec for professionals. We have mil-spec for compatibility. The government changes contractors, and they use multiple contractors. The mil-spec allows compatibility and continuity between items produced by numerous manufacturers.

My point was: If the AR that I want, NEEDS to have the following "5" things about it; and a complete mil-spec like a BCM or Colt has those "5" things, PLUS another "6" things that I don't really care about; BUT the gun I am interested in buying, and meets the "5" things I need, is the SAME EXACT PRICE as the BCM or Colt that has "6" additional features, I should buy the BCM or Colt. It's the same price; and I'm getting 6 additional features that I may need so day, so it doesn't hurt to have it. An example would be a 1:7 twist barrel or an m16 BCG.

Bottom line: People need to determine what they want in a rifle. Then, they need to compare the various rifles, to determine which one(s) satisfy their needs; then compare the prices of those that are acceptable.

But anyone who says: "If a person wants or needs an AR, then they NEED to get an AR that is 100% mil-spec"..... IS WRONG!!! That simply is wrong. There's a lot of things in the Mil-Spec of an AR, that is totally irrelevant for many CIVILIAN AR owners. Nothing wrong if you WANT TO PAY MORE for those specs. But there's also nothing wrong if you pay less for a rifle that doesn't include the "Extra" mil-spec items. That's not my opinion, that's historical basic consumer education. Been around since the beginning of time. My only argument against the rifles that aren't "AS SPEC'd"; is that many times, you can get a fully, or MORE SPEC'd, rifle for the same price that you're paying for the "Less Spec'd" rifle. To not buy the item that has MORE CAPABILITIES and MORE FEATURES, at the same price as the item that has LESS CAPABILITIES and FEATURES, is bad consumer purchasing. It makes absolutely no sense to get MORE for the same price, even if you don't need it.

That's where "The Chart" comes in. If the far left model; e.g. Colt is 100% Mil-spec.... and close to the far right model; e.g. Bushmaster is 30% Mil-Spec.... but the Colt is on sale, or for whatever reason, both the colt and the bushmaster is the same price; you'd be foolish NOT TO BUY the Colt. You get MORE for your money. Where the fighting and arguing comes in, is by the Mil-Spec snob crowd who can't accept that when the Colt, BCM, DD, etc... DOES COST MORE, that it's totally acceptable for a person to buy the less expensive rifle if they don't have a need for 100% mil-spec. My rifle cost less than the colt, because mine has a 1:9 twist, AR BCG, Carbine-length gas system and larger gas port, carbine buffer, batch barrel inspected, and other minor issues. But; my gun was $400-$500 less than a colt or BCM. Sorry, to say I should buy the BCM/COLT, etc... because it's BETTER, even though I have no need for those other "Features" is very ignorant and close minded.

But i have said 1,453,593 times; if my gun was NOT on sale, and it was normally priced, "Which is within about $50 of the BCM and Colt, that I'd be the ignorant and close minded person if I didn't buy the BCM or Colt. So yes, price is very important. But it's 2nd to WHAT THE HELL YOU NEED!!!! I am no longer in the military. I did my time. I'm not climbing under barbed wire, in the mud, diving into fox holes filled with water, jumping behind demolished concrete walls, banging my weapon as I'm running. I'm not firing full auto. Neither are our highway patrol. The mil-spec is for a reason. Compatibility; once a standard to accomplish the mission has been established. What I used an M16/M4 in the military, is not what I will use it for in civilian world in defending my home or a patrolman using it at work. But for some, they WANT to pay for the other features automatically. Even if they don't need them or it costs more. That's fine. But it's also fine for those who don't want to pay extra for stuff they don't need.
 
Because I trust the S&W company; and have little to NO complaints from actual owners; I am content with batch testing than individual rifle testing
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My S&W M&P15A came with a canted front sight base.After further inspection t turned out that the front sight base was put on correctly but the barrel was machined wrong at the fitting for the barrel nut.

Ok whatever everyone makes lemon's. And S&W is usualy (not in my case but that is another story) very good about standing behind their products.

However a company like Danield Defense or BCM have better quality control. Is this easier because they don't produce as many rifles as Bushmaster or S&W??
Maybe but its the extra time and effort that they put into the rifles that your paying for.

A Bushmaster may run fine for many years. But it is also more likely to have a "lemon" slip through than one of the "top tier" mfg's.

Thats is all it really is.


As for the "Snob" forums. The mission statment of that forum (at least the one I think your talking about) is about setting up rifles for "serious/duty" use.
It isn't about shooting wild hogs on the weekend, it's about a police officer grabbing his/her rifle out of partol car because there is an elevated threat to the officer.

Do I as a civilian need anthing more than a 4140 1in9 barrel? No, I'm also not H.A.L.O jumping into a war zone where I might need full auto suppresive fire and such.

Now, I might grab my rifle because I hear someone breaking into my house in the middle of the night. At that point do I want a quality BCG with a solid extractor?? Hell yes! At that point I would be concerned about such things as how well that bolt was inspected before it got put in my weapon.
 
And you are free to buy that level if you want. I have seen lemons in colts too. If I bought an M&P15 lemon, I'd get it taken care of. Then I'd be happy. For that breaking in the house in the middle of the night, I'd feel just as confident with my S&W as i would if it was a colt or BCM. And most people would probably feel just as confident with their Rock-River or bushmaster. For most civilian use; including home defense; they are just as reliable. The real determination however is in the hands of the user. I own a Frankenstein AR that i built about 15 years ago. It is made of all Gun Show parts that I could find at the various shows. I now have more than 20,000 rounds through it. The only part replaced was the barrel, after 15,000 rounds because I let it sit badly for about 4 years and let it get really rusty. I replaced it with another generic barrel. And I still feel quite confident in it's ability for home defense. And my 20,000 rounds trumps anyone else's opinion based on "Name Brand". I have REAL DATA to support my individual rifle. Others have opinions.

FWIW: I feel the same way about my Hi-Point C9 9mm pistol. it's a brick. It costs $150 new. It feels like a Makita cordless drill. I can't conceal it. I wouldn't want to even carry it. But after close to 1000 rounds through it, I have absolutely no reservations about having it in my house, garage, boat, truck, etc... and using it to protect myself. Anyone who disagrees is spouting an opinion. I have "PROOF". I'll take the proof any day. So, it's up to the individual. And if they feel comfortable with their bushmaster or Rock-River, then more power to them. They are the only ones that can determine if what they have will meet their needs in a reliable and dependable manner.
 
At no point was I disagreeing with you Christcorp. And I only quoted you because my S&W rifle was a "lemon".

My only other point was that If I heard a bump in the night and had the choice between grabing a Colt and a Rock River I would pick the Colt everytime.
Its not that I expect the Rock River to fail. Its that I know that the Colt test their parts and inspects their rifles to a level and degree that RR dosen't.

A bad guy isn't going to notice that the rifle I have has a 1 in 7 or 1 in 9 barrel. He won't even notice the roll mark on the left side of the rifle. He will notice if I have a failure to feed or extract and my rifle suddenly becomes a fancy whiffle bat.

Its not that the "mil-spec" parts are better because they are "mil spec" they are better because they have been tested and proven to be a quality part.
A "lesser" company's bolt carrier might be a solid part. But it also might not be. And the problem is you won't know its a bad part untill it takes a dump.
 
We have mil-spec for compatibility... The purpose behind mil-spec has nothing to do with quality.
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While I do agree with the former above, I can't say as I'd agree to the later.

A 4140 steel barrel will fit a upper receiver just as well as a mil spec barrel...but the milspec barrel is a better quality steel.

A BCG with a non-staked gas key, is compatible with a mil spec M16. There is a difference in quality, imo, there as well.

A Plum Crazy plastic lower receiver is compatible with all other AR/M16 parts. I wouldn't call a PC lower equal in quality to a forged aluminum receiver.

With that said, everyone likely doesn't NEED the mil-spec steel in the barrel, the 1:7 twist, etc. But imo, it does have a little something to do with quality.
 
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The "proof" is in the facts.
It is a fact that 4150 steel is a higher grade than 4140.
So all things being equal (twist rate, quality of production) a barrel with 4150 steel is "better" than one with 4140.

(Of course we all knew this already.)

But when people confuse "better" with "just as good" or "un-needed" thats when people get into arguments.

Is a 4150 barrel needed for your average civilian shooter? No, its not. They will probably be served just as well with a 4140 steel barrel because they won't be putting the same amount of stress on the barrel as a person that is using a full auto rifle in combat.

But the quality of the barrel will still be "better" with a 4150 barrel.

Now when people say something like "my brand X is just as good as brand y because it has never failed me" they are wrong. When you pull the parts out and compair them apples to apples people find that they are in fact not equal.

Now just because one rifle is "better" than another dosen't mean it is the best choice for everyone. People have to think about what they need their AR to do and make choices on what to buy based on those needs.
 
I agree with you all. And the 4150 vs 4140 barrel example is a great example. Because a person isn't going to be shooting full auto and turning the gas tube red, the quality of the 4150 vs 4140 steel probably isn't an issue. I.e. If the speed limit is 55mph, is the 300hp BETTER than the 150hp motor. So yes, the 4150 better than the 4140, but the 4140 is JUST AS GOOD for the purpose it will be used for.

But mil-spec can also be confusing. Many people in the mil-spec crowd dog manufacturers like DPMS. That happens to be the manufacturer that our Highway patrol has all their AR's from Plus, if you buy one of their BCG's, it specifically Says: "Unless they're LYING", that it's mil-spec. Here's their BCG for sale. http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=369255

A 20 year commitment to excellence! DPMS Panther™ Arms has been supplying the military and law enforcement with the parts and rifles they're willing to stake their lives on for 2 decades.

Precision machined to exacting mil-spec. tolerances, each and every DPMS part is crafted with pride and attention to detail. This complete Bolt Carrier and Bolt Assembly drops into any standard AR model. Phosphated finish for hard-wearing durability.
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I prefer not to look at specs. I prefer to purchase based on customer feedback on direct product forums. NOT generic forums like here, m4carbine, ar15, etc... These forums have too much competition of Mine's better than yours. Direct product/manufacturer forums have little to no conflict. All participants are owners. Whether the product is good or suck, the comments are much more honest.
 
Stated by PIGMAN - Basically all of the above mentioned makers of AR rifles work just fine and none of the makers use substandard parts. Consider the capital needed to set up the manufacturing plant necessary to the production of these rifles and who would be so stupid once they were operational to intentionally make a substandard product plus no metal refiner (except the Chinese and Asian Indians) make lousy metals with these facts in mind I can only conclude that there is very little difference between the various makers except price.

Also if you do have a part that fails, the good news is that parts are cheap and widely available so who cares if the trigger guard was not rigerously tested and retested to mill specs,I am not fighting in a protracted war in antarctica and besides pistols were made for back up if your rifle breaks down.
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That is my way of thinking.
I own Colts, S&W, Rugers, Para Ordnance, Stag, Rock River and others and they are all quality firearms.

There are even some that think if a 1911 is not a Kimber or a Les Baer it's not safe to trust your life with :rolleyes:
Same applies here.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
 
Now just because one rifle is "better" than another dosen't mean it is the best choice for everyone. People have to think about what they need their AR to do and make choices on what to buy based on those needs.
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Exactly.

There's a reason most products (tools, cameras, video equipment, computers, you name it...) come in three grades: professional, amateur (hobbyist), and consumer.

I'm a big believer in not skimping on the tools of your profession, but for a hobbyist or occassional dabbler, the price/performance ratio often just doesn't justify the cost.

I have a $4, 1/2" square-drive socket wrench from Harbor Freight Tools that I use solely for taking out the drain plug in my pop-up trailer's water heater. Do I feel bad about it? No. But, if I worked at an RV shop, removing drain pulgs all day long, 40 hours a week, you can bet I'd own a Snap-On or Mac wrench...

~Dan
 
Agreed!
+100000

The problem i see, is that there are some AR15 owners, that feel that their use, purpose, level of risk, stress on the weapon, etc... equals that of the military. Many are ex-military who are accustomed to the weapon. The fact is: No civilian use or purpose of their AR15 is going to be the same as the military. The threat and stress on the weapon won't be the same as the military. The "Need" simply isn't the same. However; these people believe that because the mil-spec level of an AR15 because it is spec'd for military use, can handle all uses lower than that. Therefor, that's the weapon they prefer. And if they ever have a need for a more spec'd AR, they'll already have it.

This is all true and acceptable. My only points are:
1. CRITICS: Don't dog owners who choose to purchase an AR15 that meets their needs, and not the "Possible" needs that buyers of the higher end model are worried about.
2. BUYERS: Shop around. There are always sales going on. There are also some retailers ripping people off with their prices. It is quite common to buy and much higher end and more quality model of an AR15, for the exact same price, and sometimes less, than the model you are choosing that is "Normally" less money but meets you needs. In other words, if the Bushmaster or RR is $600, and the colt, DD, BCM, etc... is $1000, and the Bush/RR fulfills all your needs from a quality standpoint, then definitely consider it. However; if you can get a colt, bcm, m&p, DD, etc... on sale for $700 and the Bush/RR is on normal price of $700-$900, you "Should" consider the higher quality rifle.

This sounds like common sense consumer 101. Unfortunately, many new AR buyers are impatient and don't look around. Plus, many think that All AR15's are identical in quality and function. This definitely isn't true. Be a smart shopper. Get educated.
 
The problem i see, is that there are some AR15 owners, that feel that their use, purpose, level of risk, stress on the weapon, etc... equals that of the military.
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Well, Chistcorp, now you got me in rant mode!

[RANT]

Yeah, I get a kick out of the "if it ain't Milspec, it ain't worth sh*t" attitude, especially the follow-on "if you can't afford a Tier-1 AR-15, how can you afford ammo?" or "for just a little more, you could have bought a Colt/BCM/DD..."

First off, perhaps there are more than a few out there who could afford that Tier-2 (amateur-grade) rifle *and* some ammo, but who couldn't afford *any* ammo if they had bought a Tier-1 (professional-grade) rifle. Lots of people have a lot more things to spend their hard-earned cash on than guns: the mortgage, the kids, the car, food, fuel, and on, and on, and on...

Second, that "for just a little more" quickly adds up to "a lot more" when you factor in shipping costs and FFL transfer fees. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't have an FFL, and I don't buy enough guns at the local gun store to get a discount on the FFL transfer. So, comparing BCM's mail-order price to the retail price of that M&P-15 down at Cabelas really isn't a fair comparison, unless you include all the costs (i.e., compare retail price to retail price).

As to the need for that Milspec weapon...Yeah, it would be nice to have, but (at 50 years old) I'm not going off to war, probably will never take a carbine class, most likely will never have to defend the home with it, will most likely never see a real SHTF situation and, no matter how much fun it is to think about it, zombies aren't real. So, when I go down "The Chart," there's a lot of stuff I don't need:

• MPI/HPT/Shot Peened Bolt—Extra quality control would be nice, but if my bolt ever breaks, I can a new BCM bolt for $70. Am I worried about bolt failure during combat? Um, no. It may be an inconvenience at the range (if it ever happens). On the other hand, I have plenty of other guns without MPI/HPT/shot-peened bolts, and haven't had any trouble with them, either.

• Properly-staked Gas Key—Well, it is on my M&P-15—but if it wasn't, and it's such a big issue, why isn't the gas key *welded* to the bolt carrier? Bolting a permanently-attached part onto another seems so 19th Century...

• Bolt Carrier Style—If an M16-style bolt carrier is a necessity, why does my 30-year-old "Tier-1" Colt SP1 have an AR-15 carrier?

• 4150 steel barrel—Let's see, the only difference over 4140 is a slightly higher carbon content leading to a harder steel after quenching. That makes it stand up to continuous full-auto fire better, but as a civilian, that's not even anything I have to worry about. My SP1 probably has a 4150 barrel, but aside from that one, how many of my other guns do? Exactly zero.

• MPI/HPT barrel—Aside from my SP1, none of the rest of my guns have this. I can practically guarantee that manufacturing processes have increased in quality over the last 50 years, when the TDP was written. (Anybody have figures on the reject rate of MPI/HPT barrells? My guess is 0 to 1 per million.) So, for my purposes, this is unneccessary.

• 1/7 Rifling Twist—I actually *like* the 1/9 twist. It's fast enough to stabilize up to 70 gr bullets, and lets me shoot 40 gr. varmint loads (which 1/7 will often shred). Oh, and my Milspec/TDP-compliant SP1 has a twist of 1/12. Go figure.

• Double Handguard Shields—My M&P-15 came with CAR-style handguards with a single heat shield. The double heat shields are nice when the barrel heats-up under full-auto fire...oh, wait, I don't have full-auto. Some argue the double heat shields also prevent the barrel from cooling down within a reasonable amount of time. Well, I have to admit that I just ordered a set of BCM M4 double-shield handguards to see if I like the larger M4 style. The cost to remedy that Chart-busting major FAIL? $23.

• Staked Castle Nut—Has anybody considered that some manufacturer's don't stake the castle nut, not because they're lazy, but because they know some folks are going to want to replace the receiver end plate with a single-point sling adapter, such as the Magpul ASAP? I had to do quite a bit of grinding with my Dremel to remove the staking, so I could get the castle nut off (and then I had to replace the castle nut — $7). If yours is not staked, the answer is to take a spring-loaded center punch and do it yourself. It took me more time to find my centerpunch in my toolbox than it did to stake the new castle nut in place.

• Heavy Buffer—Oh, no, my M&P-15 came with a carbine buffer! Well, if it ever breaks, I guess I'll get an H buffer — $21.

So, the bottom line, for me is a quality "amateur-grade" product from a reputable manufacturer. No, it's not "professional-grade," but I am also not a gun-toting professional, involved in combat every day. If I were, then, of course, I'd go top-of-the-line. But, since my life isn't really dependent on my AR-15, my money is better spent on thing that my life *is* dependent on, such as housing, food, vehicle maintenance, fuel, etc...

BTW, I wonder how many out there with Tier-1 AR-15s are running around with worn-out brake pads and cheap, low-tier tires from Costco on their vehicles? I think more tires blow out than barrels made of 4140 steel...

[/RANT]

Ahhhh...I feel better now...

Cheers, everyone!

~Dan
 
Dan, using your terms "amateur-grade" and "professional-grade", I think it's fair to say your M&P-15 leans closer to pro. The thing you really want to avoid is spending as much for Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA or CMMG as for S&W and Spikes Tactical or even BCM, DD, Colt. Anyone who does that just hasn't done their homework. When you get to $800+ for a basic rifle you should start demanding a higher quality AR.

There's a lot of misinformation out there that you have to spend $300, 400, 500 or more for a top tier or near top tier AR over an entry level one like Bushmaster. But when you start looking at good deals for these rifles the difference for more quality fades. Of course I'm talking about rifles that are configured similarly (handguards vs. rails, irons vs. optics, etc.) And if you build and are patient, you can bring a top quality gun in a little cheaper, using sales and of course avoiding the 11% FET on 90% of the gun.
 
Danco; you're getting wrapped up into price. You have NEVER, EVER, EVER, saw me say "For A little Bit More Money". I am talking about 2 Rifles that are EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY, or where the HIGHER QUALITY is actually CHEAPER. Sorry; but you can't use any financial argument against that. It's not possible. Again; I am not talking about "FOR JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE". NO!!! I'm talking the EXACT SAME PRICE and sometimes even LESS!!!

Example: Here is a brand new Colt 6520 for $899. $10 S/H.
http://www.birminghampistol.com/product/colt-6520/
The Bushmasters, depending on the models, are exactly at this price to start, and they go up from there. So, if you were in the market for an AR, and you were going to spend $899 on a bushmaster, I would say that the colt 6520 at the EXACT SAME PRICE is a much better rifle "Bang for the Buck". Nothing extra to "Add Up".

Now; I've said too many times; that if your bushmaster is on sale for say $599 (Like some of the carbon-15's are), then for the average AR owner, the bushmaster would be the better choice. Even over the Colt that is on sale for $899. Again; NOT "For just a little bit more". I'm comparing apples to apples.

As for "Military Use". I would find it very hard pressed for someone in the civilian realm to convince me that they had the same needs, level of risk, etc... as the military; and therefor needed that same "Mil-Spec". I don't buy it. I don't see the civilian doing belly crawls in the mud; under barbed wire; diving behind building; having their AR beat on the ground, etc... Nothing wrong with WANTING the added quality of some mil-spec features; but they need to be weighed against the price and need. I agree whole heartedly with you. There is nothing on the mil-spec "List" that I simply MUST HAVE on my rifle. Because I'm NOT in combat; my weapons get a 100% cleaning and inspection after each trip to the range. And if I haven't used it in a while, I relube and reinspect them periodically. If I find a weapon that all of a sudden has a problem, like a loose gas key, and I don't have confidence in it's ability to protect me, I won't use it. I can't run out of additional guns.

Unfortunately, as I was saying, there's some that believe that all the things that make an M16/M4 spec'd the way it is, are all the things that every person concerned with home defense needs also. It isn't. Even the carbine classes and similar aren't "Real" military use. Now, if a person believes that a red-dawn scenario is a probability.... then I guess then need that 100% mil-spec. I don't. HOWEVER: If I'm in the market to buy an AR, I want the best I can get for the amount of money I am going to pay.

1. I'd NEVER buy a Bushmaster. Not because they suck; but because their prices are NEVER cheaper than some better guns like M&P15 and Colts when they are on sale. When we're looking at the same price, I'd take the colt or M&P.
2. The $600-$800 price range is where a lot of individuals like to be for their first AR15 purchase. That's not unreasonable. But there's a LOT of guns in that price range. Normal AND SALE prices. Look at M&P, Spikes, BCM, etc... If there are no sales on AR's in the price range for the higher quality rifles, that's OK. Just go to the forums SPECIFICALLY for the AR you're interested in; and see what REAL OWNERS have to say about them.
 
Danco; you're getting wrapped up into price. You have NEVER, EVER, EVER, saw me say "For A little Bit More Money".
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No, my friend, it wasn't you, but some of the others *at the other place*...While there's lots of good info over there, there are definitely some elitists, too. (I've seen them try to take chunks out of you...but you've handled it nicely!)

I agree 100% with what you've said...we all need to be on top of our comparative shopping game, to get the most bang for the buck. It's no different than shopping for any other product—know what you need, and try to get what you want at the best price, or get an "upgraded" product at your original price point.

Most certainly, if you find a bargain and can get more for your money, grab it!

My frustration with "those other guys" is that some think everyone should spend $300-$400 more to get top-of-the-line (when you don't necessarily need it, and it may be out of your price range altogether), or you're not worth talking to...

~Dan
 
Originally Posted by jsp10477
After all, isn't the quality of any firearm judged on accuracy and reliability? I have a 700p that shoots 1/2 inch groups. Is an AI that shoots 1/2 in groups any more accurate just because I paid more than twice what the 700 costs?
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Yes they may both shoot 1/2" groups but what you get in a Accuracy International is superior reliability. Now that reliability comes at a price, is it worth it, that is up to you?
Here is a video by Zak Smith that shows the AI reliability up against a Custom 700 (as well as some others) in a competition. Was the extra money worth it for the AI, I think Zak would say YES.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=zu9JEoHMBPA
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Specifically, what you get is a rifle that will shoot to its original POI, 1/2 or 1/4 or whatever your loads will shoot, round after round, after dropping the rifle off the truck, running it over, falling on it, going from zero to 100 degrees, from sea level to 8000' altitude, year after year, whose bolt doesn't bind up with some dust and you can buy off the shelf drop-in parts if someone steals your bolt (note I didn't say "break"). I've gone years without changing the primary zero on my scope knobs.
 
There are a lot of good comments already. But I will like to point out that at the end of the day what determines what AR you own is mostly influence by the $$$$ you have...Period. Desires are important but rarely do our income meet our desires. It is a human desire to want what we can't have.

I also believe that not AR's are the same in terms of quality! Same with cars, homes etc. I understand that if you love and own a certain brand of AR, you are incline to defend it like this country has been invaded. If $$$$ was not an option and we are put in situation that we could have any AR we want, I doubt many will still defend what they currently have. Same with the homes we live and the cars we currently drive. Well some may say not me, because I have all I want. If this is true then there is no reason to live because you are totally fulfilled and have absolutely achieved all your dreams and goals.

I also agree that a high price AR does not always mean better product but in most cases quality products have higher prices. Unfortunately since $$$$ doesn't grow on couches in our homes we end up settling for something we can afford and then we justify it with well it's as good as the next one etc. But I think we know better. Be proud of what you can afford and you shouldn’t apologize for it or seek others approval.
 
Doublea: I think you're missing the point that many are making. With the "Right" shopping and patients, you can buy the "Higher Quality" AR Rifle for less or the same price as what you would have spent for the one that you so called "Could Afford".

I.e. If you think you can afford a bushmaster or Rock-River, then you CAN afford a higher quality. And you can definitely get the GOOD quality guns for even less. In other words, there's a lot of over-priced AR's out there. Bushmaster is one of them. Sorry for all you Bush lovers. There is nothing wrong with Bushmaster. Just that they are way over-priced.

Now; for the patient and knowledgeable shopper, you can find high quality AR's for under $1000; and you can find good quality AR's for around $700. Unfortunately, many AR shoppers AREN'T patient or knowledgeable. They wind up paying $900-$1000 for the "Good quality" AR's, and believe that the "High Quality" AR's cost MORE than $1000.
 
I definitely agree with christcorp. If you are patient and do not buy the first thing that fits your budget - and in that waiting period get your head wrapped around the AR platform and all the features you need - then you can find deals on ARs you might have thought were out of your budget. It's hard to wait but rewarding.

And during the waiting game you may decide to build your AR, which can give you more gun for the money if you stay in control.
 
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